BrainFireBob Posted May 19, 2008 Share Posted May 19, 2008 [quote name='Shryke' post='1360837' date='May 19 2008, 13.40']And "TV Generation demands constant action" isn't gross over-generalization combined with ignoring the argument and making insulting assumptions about others?[/quote] It would be, [i]if that was what I said[/i]. But enjoy arguing with your imaginary poster who's saying something that's not at all what I did. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shryke Posted May 19, 2008 Share Posted May 19, 2008 [quote name='BrainFireBob' post='1360839' date='May 19 2008, 15.41']It would be, [i]if that was what I said[/i]. But enjoy arguing with your imaginary poster who's saying something that's not at all what I did.[/quote] *cough*cough* [quote name='BrainFireBob' post='1353696' date='May 13 2008, 14.19']Boring because it wasn't going motherfucking crazy with swords?[/quote] [quote name='BrainFireBob' post='1355312' date='May 14 2008, 15.01']This is what I was interested in getting to- the constant reiteration that the books were boring seems to me to come from a TV-generation centered mindset.[/quote] You forgetting stuff already old man? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
niamh Posted May 19, 2008 Share Posted May 19, 2008 [quote name='CelticBrennus' post='1360767' date='May 19 2008, 21.04']I dont think I would admit this if I were you. Its one of the great classics of all time. I still remember the opening line "Sing of Muse, of the wrath of Achillies"[/quote] And why shouldn't I admit it? Like I care what old crusties think of me. The vast majority of people have never read the Illiad, nor the Odyssey, only they have this big fear of looking stupid [i]and they don't admit to it[/i]. (this is valid for virtually every classic I know) It doesn't mean I don't know what it's about, nor did I read adapted stories off it etc (I know the whole of it, trust me. I read a lot as a child)... just not as is. Personally, I can't relate to the style and gave it up. ;) On the other hand, since we're being pedantic asses today and we've got to page 20 anyway, I have read the Kalevala. Have you? It's one of the great classics of all times. Of course if you haven't you won't admit to it, so it's pointless asking. You do realise that in the future I will always suspect you of pretending to have knowledge you don't have when you're involved in arguments, right? Way to lose credibility in one little post ;) ETA: oh and YES, I did have to translate blocks of it from latin. Thankfully I had forgotten all about the pain of it, until now Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrainFireBob Posted May 19, 2008 Share Posted May 19, 2008 The first was defining the parameters of boring, and the second absolutely isn't saying what you were implying. As I explained later- when actually asked for the basis, instead of someone preferring to grab a pitchfork rather than use their brain- that there's been a shift to need to have things described that seems to correspond to the rise of TV and the shift toward visual stimulus that may be seen in language use. Or, in other words, allusion no longer cuts it, because allusion is just dead words, instead of something you apply your visualization too, whereas visual descriptions do create the emotional involvement. And buckwheat, I believe I'm actually younger than you are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CelticBrennus Posted May 19, 2008 Share Posted May 19, 2008 [quote]And why shouldn't I admit it? Like I care what old crusties think of me. The vast majority of people have never read the Illiad, nor the Odyssey, only they have this big fear of looking stupid and they don't admit to it. (this is valid for virtually every classic I know)[/quote] Wow, thats the first time I have ever been called an old crusty. Chances are though, that I am within 5 years of your age... [quote]It doesn't mean I don't know what it's about, nor did I read adapted stories off it etc (I know the whole of it, trust me. I read a lot as a child)... just not as is. Personally, I can't relate to the style and gave it up.[/quote] Hey, not everyone is up to reading the classics, nothing wrong with that. [quote]On the other hand, since we're being pedantic asses today and we've got to page 20 anyway, I have read the Kalevala. Have you? It's one of the great classics of all times.[/quote] No, I have not. I never did have a chance to get into reading Finnish stuff. [quote]Of course if you haven't you won't admit to it, so it's pointless asking.[/quote] Really? I could swear I just did. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shryke Posted May 19, 2008 Share Posted May 19, 2008 Funny, Tolkien hated Allusion or allegory and denied any of it was in LOTR. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
niamh Posted May 19, 2008 Share Posted May 19, 2008 if you can find any written piece saying Tolkien hated "allusion" ([i]The act of alluding; indirect reference[/i]), I'll give you a truckload of cookies, delivered to your door. :lol: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shryke Posted May 19, 2008 Share Posted May 19, 2008 Maybe it was just allegory then. It's been awhile. Anyway, you still don't have a point. [quote]there's been a shift to need to have things described that seems to correspond to the rise of TV and the shift toward visual stimulus that may be seen in language use. Or, in other words, allusion no longer cuts it, because allusion is just dead words, instead of something you apply your visualization too, whereas visual descriptions do create the emotional involvement.[/quote] It's funny, you talk like LOTR doesn't contain TONS of (beautiful in many cases) descriptions. No ones complaining about a lack of "visual language". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
niamh Posted May 19, 2008 Share Posted May 19, 2008 [quote name='CelticBrennus' post='1360897' date='May 19 2008, 22.12']Hey, not everyone is up to reading the classics, nothing wrong with that.[/quote] [b]I[/b] surely don't blame you for not having read the Kalevala. I wouldn't be an elitist, you see. :rolleyes: This line surely was the nicest way I've ever heard of calling me an imbecile. I applaud your manners. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CelticBrennus Posted May 19, 2008 Share Posted May 19, 2008 [quote]This line surely was the nicest way I've ever heard of calling me an imbecile. I applaud your manners.[/quote] Not a problem. I thought I would return the favor to the assorted Tolkien supporters out there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord of Oop North Posted May 19, 2008 Share Posted May 19, 2008 [quote name='Triskele' post='1360928' date='May 19 2008, 16.26']Did he not at least say repeatedly that LotR was not any sort of reference to WWII or the military industrial complex, and if it had been, would that not have been allusion?[/quote] He hated allegory. They are not the same thing. -- There is no way that Tolkien hated 'allusion' as he constantly alludes to people, events, and places from the history of his world. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shryke Posted May 19, 2008 Share Posted May 19, 2008 Thanks limecat. It was one of those A words. And what's wrong with not reading the classics? I have little interest in most of them and I don't see anything wrong with that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
niamh Posted May 19, 2008 Share Posted May 19, 2008 [quote name='CelticBrennus' post='1360937' date='May 19 2008, 22.33']Not a problem. I thought I would return the favor to the assorted Tolkien supporters out there.[/quote] Well so long as you realise I personally didn't actually make disparaging comments on the opponents' mental faculties anywhere, nor would I care if someone hasn't read the thing, then we're all good, and, this petty satisfaction having been given you and your day having been made, maybe you can move on to the next target? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CelticBrennus Posted May 19, 2008 Share Posted May 19, 2008 Sorry, I spent (and am currently still spending) my day researching Bankruptcy rules and forms to write a motion. Petty satisfactions is about as good as it gets for me today... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
niamh Posted May 19, 2008 Share Posted May 19, 2008 [quote name='Limecat' post='1360941' date='May 19 2008, 22.35']He hated allegory. They are not the same thing. -- There is no way that Tolkien hated 'allusion' as he constantly alludes to people, events, and places from the history of his world.[/quote] I can't believe you actually [i]answered[/i] that post. Then again you're fresh into the fray :P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord of Oop North Posted May 19, 2008 Share Posted May 19, 2008 [quote name='niamh O'Toole' post='1360963' date='May 19 2008, 16.52']I can't believe you actually [i]answered[/i] that post. Then again you're fresh into the fray :P[/quote] Are answers not allowed in this thread anymore? Probably not, eh? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Werthead Posted May 19, 2008 Share Posted May 19, 2008 I'll answer it even further :) Tolkien didn't like allegory, but he was okay with 'applicability'. He spells this out in the introduction to LotR. Someone else - CS Lewis? - said that LotR is definitely not based on WWII (since he'd started writing it two years before the war began) but that, "Horribly, real events began to conform to the pattern he'd invented." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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