R. Scott Bakker

[Guest Relic]

i suck at writing rewiews Fee. I'll leave it up to Stego and you'll all be wiser fer it.

[Brys]

I have to protest your list, brys. Have you READ bakker? I certainly wouldn't put Tim Powers on any where near a comparable leval to Bakker or Martin. the guy can't even do dialogue particularly convinvingly. I've only read Anubis gates, and while a fun enough romp through time travel in its way, it came nowhere near to the depth of insight into human character or the compelling plot that both Bakker and Martin, each in their very different ways, have managed to date.

Relic, you or stego should do a spoiler free reviw of TTT, please

On the top (fantasy) three here..Martin for sheer story telling ability and writing skills comes top. Bakker next for the depth he brings to the genre. And to be honest, so far I prefer Hobbs to Erikson; though that may change. Erikson is a great worldbuilder, but he still has a lot of work to do on his basicwriting skills before it hits the spot for me.

In terms of prose, I don't think Powers is even close to Bakker. In terms of storytelling overall, I think Powers is a little above. He's definitely the weakest on that list, but I feel that he was able to manage a historical fantasy better than any other author has done IMO in the Drawing of the Dark. That said, that is the only Tim Powers novel I've read. I think Powers real skill was to weave in a lot of insight, but to disguise it as a simple, entertaining novel. There's a lot of depth in the novel - as long as you pay attention and think while you're reading. In Bakker, it's obvious and hard to miss, in Powers, it's easy to miss but there nonetheless. But I found the plot of the Drawing of the Dark more compelling, in its way, than Martin and Bakker. Perhaps putting Powers there was a bit of a mistake, but in terms of a compelling plot, if we're just taking the Darkness that Comes Before and the Drawing of the Dark, IMO the latter wins hands down. If we're taking the whole trilogy I suspect Bakker would win - The Warrior Prophet was a big improvement in terms of storytelling from tDtCB, and I hope that TTT will see another improvement.

Have you read all of the Malazan novels so far? IMO, Erikson's writing skill was still pretty poor in Gardens of the Moon, it wasn't bad by Deadhouse Gates, and now it's almost at the same level as Martin in Midnight Tides.

[shortstark]

What i want to know is how come so many people on this board have gotten their hand so nhtis book already.... man!! am i envious :sick:

[Larry.]

Umm....I got my ARC for free because I help run wotmania's Other Fantasy section and that Bakker and I have become friends over the past 18 months of correspondence and even one dinner? Sometimes, it's just a matter of networking, little else.

[Baeraad]

I read The Darkness That Comes Before last summer and swore never to touch another book in that series. It wasn't that I thought it was bad - in fact, it was very, very good - but it was just so damn depressing. Every single character was either miserable, moronic, evil, or some combination thereof.

Last week I read, from curiosity, the first chapter of The Warrior Prophet in a bookstore. And, well...

I'm tempted to buy it. ;;

So clearly Bakker has a gift, since he can draw me in despite me knowing that another 800-page agony fest awaits. But I'd still like to see one reason why it wouldn't be more merciful for the people in his world to be put out of their misery by the Consult. I mean, just one reason would be nice...

[williamjm]

In terms of prose, I don't think Powers is even close to Bakker. In terms of storytelling overall, I think Powers is a little above. He's definitely the weakest on that list, but I feel that he was able to manage a historical fantasy better than any other author has done IMO in the Drawing of the Dark. That said, that is the only Tim Powers novel I've read. I think Powers real skill was to weave in a lot of insight, but to disguise it as a simple, entertaining novel. There's a lot of depth in the novel - as long as you pay attention and think while you're reading. In Bakker, it's obvious and hard to miss, in Powers, it's easy to miss but there nonetheless. But I found the plot of the Drawing of the Dark more compelling, in its way, than Martin and Bakker. Perhaps putting Powers there was a bit of a mistake, but in terms of a compelling plot, if we're just taking the Darkness that Comes Before and the Drawing of the Dark, IMO the latter wins hands down. If we're taking the whole trilogy I suspect Bakker would win - The Warrior Prophet was a big improvement in terms of storytelling from tDtCB, and I hope that TTT will see another improvement.

If you've just read "The Drawing Of The Dark" then I suspect you may be understimating Powers slightly. While it is a good novel, it was his first attempt at a historical fantasy and his later novels (well, some of them) are better written and (in my opinion, you may disagree) more compelling. They also have a lot more depth and complexity than tDotD and more impressive world-building.

I've not read Bakker [1] so I can't compare him with Powers.

[1] Not yet, anyway. He has been recommended enough in various places that I'll probably give his books a try sometime.

[Brys]

That's very good news - I've on read the Drawing of the Dark, and I was pretty impressed by it. It wasn't quite a top fantasy novel, but it was certainly above average. The only problem is getting hold of many of them - the Anubis Gates is in the Gollancz Masterworks collection, but a few of the others won't be so easy to obtain.

[williamjm]

That's very good news - I've on read the Drawing of the Dark, and I was pretty impressed by it. It wasn't quite a top fantasy novel, but it was certainly above average. The only problem is getting hold of many of them - the Anubis Gates is in the Gollancz Masterworks collection, but a few of the others won't be so easy to obtain.

Yes, unfortunately many of Powers' novels are out of print. I think "Stress Of Her Regard" and "On Stranger Tides" are out of print, I had to find second-hand copies of them to read. Two of his great novels, "Declare" and "Last Call" should be available as should the weakest of his fantasy novels - "Expriation Date" and "Earthquake Weather".

[Calibandar]

Brys,

Erikson's writing skill was still pretty poor in Gardens of the Moon, it wasn't bad by Deadhouse Gates, and now it's almost at the same level as Martin in Midnight Tides.

Amazing how people can view books. I like Erikson's series on the whole, but to say that his style of all things has become almost on Martin's level is absurd in my opinion. Stylistically, his books have been quite haphazard sofar.

<<<Is there anyone who Martin hasn't licked in this (storytelling) dept?>>>

Plenty, including IMO, Mervyn Peake, Gene Wolfe, Franz Kafka, Tim Powers, Jeff Vandermeer - amongst others

Huh? Mervyn Peake? Totally unreadable. Same for Jeff Vandermeer. Prose prose prose and more prose. Tim Powers, well, Anubis Gates is often hailed as his finest work and I've read that (also have Last Call on the shelf) and I woudln't give that more than 6 stars out of 10. Not my style, no characters to take to. Gene Wolfe is also more prose and style than plotting IMO, though I find his mention a little more bearable in this context.

[Galactus]

I must say i agree. Wolfe, Peake, et. al. are very good with prose, but their plots aren't that exceptional.

Heck, neither is Kafka.

[Doppelganger]

Awsome, just brought the first book. I can't read it until christmas though >_<

[The Young Lion]

On the old board, i started a post about how mind numbingly hard his names were to understand, read and hurt my understanding of the story, where places were and what was going on.

After a few weeks it gre on me and I really got into the world and characters and his writing really helped to keep me reading.

Then last night i started book 2.

The first chapter blew my friggen mind. I had that same sort

of epic WTF is happening feeling like i did after i finished

The Silmarillion.

I have to agree with those that have said that the first book is just one BIG setup book.

So far Book 2 is fantastic, and from what others have said it

is going to be a great read

I want to thank the person for the link to the forums, I cant wait to finish the book to go there and start reading!

The Hound

[nobodymN]

After finishing The Thousandfold Thought a couple of days ago, I can't think of a completed epic fantasy sequence that much better than this.

[Nathanael]

Jay. Spoiler-free. Review. Now.

Please?

[Larry.]

If you want, I can link you to two other spoiler-free reviews, Nathanael - one that I wrote, one that Rob Bedford over at SFF World wrote. But I too am curious to see what Jay has to say. It's sounding more and more like there might be some consensus as to the quality of Bakker's conclusion (at least among us ARC readers/reviewers), which no doubt will worry Scott much more than if there were divisions of thought!

[Nathanael]

Heh, I've already read yours, the SFF guy's, and Stego's. But in lieu of actually reading the book myself, I'm a spoiler-free review addict! Jay's opinion is always interesting, too.

[Larry.]

Ah, great then! And I too am very curious to see what others make of the book, as there's just so much discussion-worthy elements in it, especially toward the end. In about a week or so, I hope to hear back from a fellow Admin of mine at wotmania about TTT, as I mailed him my ARC copy (he's sending me a few goodies as well, so it's a fair trade) to read/review/eventually return (I hope!).

[nobodymN]

I will say this, the biggest discussion is going to be the ending and when I mean the ending, I really do mean the ending, and immiediate questions will arise regarding the release of The Aspect Emperor.

I think overall The Warrior Prophet was the best book in the series (which I have found to be not common in series).

There are some questions I have for Scott that I want answered regarding the advanced edition and the revisions he made not too long ago and how they affected both the integrity of The Thousandfold Thought and the Aspect Emperor), before I comment with any sense critical questioning in mind. I hope to have a full review up next week (which most likely will have spoilers), but that's hinging in how quick of a reply I get from him (will email him later today or tomorrow).

I'm not sure if the book answers more questions (that I think readers have going in and expecting answers to) than it does bring up more questions, and I'm also not sure if that's exactly a negative, however the format of (or what looks to be the format of) the future work isn't what I expected it seems. I'm not sure if the there are any conclusions in 'TTT' and the ones we do get, seem minimized to me.

[Larry.]

That ending was certainly surprising and it took me re-reading it a few times to see how it fit in with what had happened before in the series. And I too had to revise quite a bit of what I thought might be the lead-in to the second series after that final chapter.

But I'm curious - what was it about TWP that made it more 'workable' for you than TTT? Until the concluding 50 pages or so, I was more inclined to go with TWP as the best in the series, but it seemed like the ending was just enough to tilt me over toward favoring TTT.

As for reaching Scott, he's out of town until early January. He sent me an email last week saying he was going to the beach for a few weeks with his wife. But I shall eagerly await your comments about the ending and perhaps I'll weigh in a bit, wary as I've been of talking about the specific plot events because of the hyper-paranoia that some readers have about those things.

[nobodymN]

But I'm curious - what was it about TWP that made it more 'workable' for you than TTT? Until the concluding 50 pages or so, I was more inclined to go with TWP as the best in the series, but it seemed like the ending was just enough to tilt me over toward favoring TTT.

I don't know if I'd say the d fference between the two for me has anything to do with 'workable',. I think the second book in a series is given some measure of slack regarding what the reader wants and can expect to either find out or use to draw their own conclusions. I went into The Thousandfold Thought with more expectations that either of the first two installments, and although I think it's outstanding (as noted the best completed epic sequence I have read), I just think the most alluring element in the series for me was the Kellhuss/Cnaiur angle and this was played out the most in the second installment.

Essentially what I'm saying is that i think it was awesome, but I'm not sure if that's how it's going to be perceived by many people, and it may be just because of the the lack of marketing of the future work (The Aspect Emperor). On hindsight, I think it ended the only way it really could have ended, I'm just not sure my thinking is going to be shared by the majority - and unfortunately I think its caused by what I think is not a universal understanding/knowledge of the forthcoming work.

I just think a lot of people are not going to find out what they want until the Aspect Emperor, and I'm not sure if that's what people are expecting going into The Thousandfold Thought.

People are going to either love it or hate it. There will be no middle-ground after 'TTT'.

As for reaching Scott, he's out of town until early January. He sent me an email last week saying he was going to the beach for a few weeks with his wife. But I shall eagerly await your comments about the ending and perhaps I'll weigh in a bit, wary as I've been of talking about the specific plot events because of the hyper-paranoia that some readers have about those things.

Yeah I know, I'm hoping for luck, but if not I have plenty of stuff I need to review anyway. I really want to contact him about some last mintue revisions I heard he had made some months ago and what they entailed

My questions have more to do with the editorial/marketing decisions than the writing itself, which is absolutely -- and as expected -- powerful. The conclusion is a bit of surprise, and surprises tend to be taken to reacted to in the extreme. I fear some wil think it anti-climatic, butthe more I think of it (as mentioned) it was perfect.