The_BlauerDragon Posted January 3, 2009 Share Posted January 3, 2009 [quote name='cyrano' post='1636469' date='Jan 2 2009, 18.00']Andrew Sullivan mentioned that he was described as hysterical a fair number of times, which he thinks is common for people of his orientation. I was always under the impression that folk use "shrill" in conjunction with feminist.[/quote] His [i]orientation[/i]? Is he a liberal? Seriously though, when someone says "Words that are used to describe feminists?" Shrill, Shrew, the Dutch D word that I will not use except to refer to a type of Dam or Levy, Butch, the Bull version of the D word, FemiNazi, and a certain derogatory name commonly associated with female dogs all come to mind. We may have come a long way since the caves, but we've got a long way yet to go before we'll be able to call ourselves evolved. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IheartTesla Posted January 3, 2009 Share Posted January 3, 2009 He's gay, son. Thought the "orientation" part would have given it away. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El Chico Posted January 3, 2009 Share Posted January 3, 2009 [quote]First, it would be foolish to even try and say that there is not a very valid point in the argument for the "assault on Christianity". It's more like a backlash, than an actual assault... but it is there and it is moving the balance to a position that persecutes Christians none the less. Christianity has been forcefully shoved down everyone's throats for so long, that a little bit of unfair treatment of Christians might actually be called for. I say this as a Christian.[/quote] I definitely wouldn't say that, at least where I am. The status quo remains very much unchanged. My elementary school principal was forced to retire after admitting to being an atheist. It may be different in other parts of the country, but down here, if you ain't right with Jesus, you can kiss your career goodbye. [quote]Second, American values and culture [i]are[/i][u][/u] being destroyed.[/quote] This is one of the things I don't understand. What are these "American values and culture" that conservatives are continually harping upon, and how is what we have now any worse or different from what came before? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Mord Posted January 3, 2009 Share Posted January 3, 2009 El Chico, [quote name='El Chico' post='1636557' date='Jan 2 2009, 19.52']I definitely wouldn't say that, at least where I am. The status quo remains very much unchanged. My elementary school principal was forced to retire after admitting to being an atheist. It may be different in other parts of the country, but down here, if you ain't right with Jesus, you can kiss your career goodbye.[/quote] Not only that, but in any case, most non-Christians would let Christians be, as long as they'd do the same for the rest of us. [quote]This is one of the things I don't understand. What are these "American values and culture" that conservatives are continually harping upon, and how is what we have now any worse or different from what came before?[/quote] If you have to ask, then it's already too late. And you probably helped it along, however unwittingly. .......... and good on yer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brude Posted January 3, 2009 Share Posted January 3, 2009 I'm no fan of God in government and I'd like to see "In God We Trust" off the money, but my reading of the 1st Amendment also lets a President express his belief in God if he wants to while he's up on the podium that day. I don't have to agree, but he can express what he likes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dumas Posted January 3, 2009 Share Posted January 3, 2009 Complete non-starter and non-issue, if you ask me. If someone believes that swearing an oath before whatever deity makes it 'official,' I don't really care. Well, unless the oath requires a human sacrifice to make it binding. If you don't believe Obama will hold to the oath out of his own integrity, honour, and sense of duty, the presence or absence of a few words aren't going to help anything. That's the only thing that matters: the people's opinion of the man they elected and his character. There are people who, if they swore the sky was blue by every god that ever was, I would still open a window to check. As for 'In God We Trust' on money, I'm willing to bet that if someone replaced it with 'Up Yours' on a few hundred quarters, no one would notice for quite some time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El Chico Posted January 3, 2009 Share Posted January 3, 2009 [quote]El Chico, Not only that, but in any case, most non-Christians would let Christians be, as long as they'd do the same for the rest of us.[/quote] Ditto. [quote]If you have to ask, then it's already too late. And you probably helped it along, however unwittingly.[/quote] That was kind of rhetorical. I would, for once, like to hear what they believe "American values" are. We're a melting pot whose culture is constantly changing and taking on new influences, and if they say we're "getting away from our Anglo-Saxon Christian roots" then they obviously don't have a very good grasp of history. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Mord Posted January 3, 2009 Share Posted January 3, 2009 El Chico, [quote name='El Chico' post='1636970' date='Jan 3 2009, 15.06']Ditto.[/quote] Well ... you know, a reversal on gay marriage would go a long way towards demonstrating that equanimity. [quote]That was kind of rhetorical. I would, for once, like to hear what they believe "American values" are. We're a melting pot whose culture is constantly changing and taking on new influences, and if they say we're "getting away from our Anglo-Saxon Christian roots" then they obviously don't have a very good grasp of history.[/quote] My apologies. I was clear about your purpose, but not in mine, apparently. I agree with you, and therefore my intention was to write so exaggerated a rebuttal as to make the opposition look ridiculous. I need to watch more Colbert, perhaps, because I failed to exaggerate sufficiently to be manifest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Meili Posted January 4, 2009 Share Posted January 4, 2009 1. Scott is right that it 'isn't' in the law to HAVE to say it. But every one does so why make a law? I would bet if someone didn't because they knew that a 'god' figure is nowhere in their set of beliefs didn't say it that they would make a law to CHANGE the oath. 2. Christians often play the role of the persecuted people when in fact they have not only more nods as far as the government goes but so many it is ridiculous. Newdow isn't a spokesman for anyone but himself but he has a point and a perfectly logical one. GOD should be mentioned [b]nowhere [/b] in any government pledge, oath or coin. Personal choice is one thing but to MAKE people acknowledge a god they know doesn't exist is hardly fair but as far as I go it's an infringement on my views, of life, religion and my view of the law. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El Chico Posted January 4, 2009 Share Posted January 4, 2009 [quote]Well ... you know, a reversal on gay marriage would go a long way towards demonstrating that equanimity.[/quote] Oh, I agree. Fundamentalists have no real logical basis for denying gays the right to marry, just some quotations from that wonderful holy book I've always heard about. It'll be reversed especially as my (overwhelming liberal) generation comes to power. [quote]My apologies. I was clear about your purpose, but not in mine, apparently. I agree with you, and therefore my intention was to write so exaggerated a rebuttal as to make the opposition look ridiculous. I need to watch more Colbert, perhaps, because I failed to exaggerate sufficiently to be manifest.[/quote] No worries. It always astounds me how he's able to stay in persona.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Mord Posted January 4, 2009 Share Posted January 4, 2009 Meili, [quote name='Meili' post='1637052' date='Jan 3 2009, 16.34']1. Scott is right that it 'isn't' in the law to HAVE to say it. But every one does so why make a law? I would bet if someone didn't because they knew that a 'god' figure is nowhere in their set of beliefs didn't say it that they would make a law to CHANGE the oath. 2. Christians often play the role of the persecuted people when in fact they have not only more nods as far as the government goes but so many it is ridiculous. Newdow isn't a spokesman for anyone but himself but he has a point and a perfectly logical one. GOD should be mentioned [b]nowhere [/b] in any government pledge, oath or coin. Personal choice is one thing but to MAKE people acknowledge a god they know doesn't exist is hardly fair but as far as I go it's an infringement on my views, of life, religion and my view of the law.[/quote] I think I agree with everything you've said. Thanks for saying it. Also: In the western tradition, at least since the Romans, it has always been the wont of those with the most power to abuse it in the name of self-defense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Meili Posted January 4, 2009 Share Posted January 4, 2009 [quote name='lordcaspen' post='1637082' date='Jan 3 2009, 18.59']Meili, I think I agree with everything you've said. Thanks for saying it. Also: In the western tradition, at least since the Romans, it has always been the wont of those with the most power to abuse it in the name of self-defense.[/quote] I agree and thanks. Religion in the government and it seeming to slowly entrenching itself in it at all is one of my strongest legitimate political views and my anti-religion view is more of a personal philosophy and is in what I think is most beneficial, logical and at the very least safest belief out there but that is for another topic sometime. It just amazes me each time Christians (in the US at least) never stop trying to place at best a reference to their or a god everywhere but also trying to change the laws for everyone based on what they think their god wants. I wish the Christians would be honest with themselves and imagine a President saying 'in Allah we trust' while taking the oath of office. If they are honest with themselves, which is extremely doubtful, they would shudder and do their best to either find a loophole in the laws or any other way to find that it was illegal or they would sure as shit MAKE it illegal and it would immediately tarnish the man/woman. The double standard in their so-called free speech defense is is is...... words are failing me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crazydog7 Posted January 4, 2009 Share Posted January 4, 2009 As a Christian I say why the hell not? Does saying "Under God" make you a better person? No it identifies you are a member of a group. A person's religion or lack of religion should have no influence on how well he or she runs a government. In the end words are just wind, its actions that count. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El Chico Posted January 4, 2009 Share Posted January 4, 2009 [quote name='lordcaspen' post='1637082' date='Jan 3 2009, 18.59']Also: In the western tradition, at least since the Romans, it has always been the wont of those with the most power to abuse it in the name of self-defense.[/quote] But don't you love having your cake and eating it, too? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Scot A Ellison Posted January 4, 2009 Author Share Posted January 4, 2009 Meili, [quote name='Meili' post='1637113' date='Jan 3 2009, 20.35']I wish the Christians would be honest with themselves and imagine a President saying 'in Allah we trust' while taking the oath of office. If they are honest with themselves, which is extremely doubtful, they would shudder and do their best to either find a loophole in the laws or any other way to find that it was illegal or they would sure as shit MAKE it illegal and it would immediately tarnish the man/woman. The double standard in their so-called free speech defense is is is...... words are failing me.[/quote] As a Christian I would have no problem with someone who is Muslim and taking the oath of office saying "So help me Allah" or "Inshalla" instead of "So help me God.". It shows they are sincerely seeking the aid of God (as they see God) to help them fulfill their duties as President. I had no problem with the Muslim member of the House of Representatives taking his oath of office on a Koran for the very same reason. I can't imagine I'm the only Christian who feels this way. Quite frankly it's a tad presumptous of you to assume all Christians would react to your scenario based upon your assumptions about their beliefs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Meili Posted January 4, 2009 Share Posted January 4, 2009 [quote name='Crazydog7' post='1637114' date='Jan 3 2009, 19.35']In the end words are just wind, its actions that count.[/quote] ???? Aren't words what gets a person elected to begin with? Aren't words the way to gage what a person will do before the opportunity action presents itself? Your statement is true as far as hindsight goes but looking forward, it makes no sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shryke Posted January 4, 2009 Share Posted January 4, 2009 [quote name='Meili' post='1637113' date='Jan 3 2009, 20.35']I agree and thanks. Religion in the government and it seeming to slowly entrenching itself in it at all is one of my strongest legitimate political views and my anti-religion view is more of a personal philosophy and is in what I think is most beneficial, logical and at the very least safest belief out there but that is for another topic sometime. It just amazes me each time Christians (in the US at least) never stop trying to place at best a reference to their or a god everywhere but also trying to change the laws for everyone based on what they think their god wants. I wish the Christians would be honest with themselves and imagine a President saying 'in Allah we trust' while taking the oath of office. If they are honest with themselves, which is extremely doubtful, they would shudder and do their best to either find a loophole in the laws or any other way to find that it was illegal or they would sure as shit MAKE it illegal and it would immediately tarnish the man/woman. The double standard in their so-called free speech defense is is is...... words are failing me.[/quote] The problem is a large portion of the religious right in this country believe the US is a Christian nation, founded by Chrisitians for Christian purposes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tempra Posted January 4, 2009 Share Posted January 4, 2009 [quote name='Meili' post='1637113' date='Jan 3 2009, 20.35']I agree and thanks. Religion in the government and it seeming to slowly entrenching itself in it at all is one of my strongest legitimate political views and my anti-religion view is more of a personal philosophy and is in what I think is most beneficial, logical and at the very least safest belief out there but that is for another topic sometime. It just amazes me each time Christians (in the US at least) never stop trying to place at best a reference to their or a god everywhere but also trying to change the laws for everyone based on what they think their god wants. [b]I wish the Christians would be honest with themselves and imagine a President saying 'in Allah we trust' while taking the oath of office. If they are honest with themselves, which is extremely doubtful, they would shudder and do their best to either find a loophole in the laws or any other way to find that it was illegal or they would sure as shit MAKE it illegal and it would immediately tarnish the man/woman. The double standard in their so-called free speech defense is is is...... words are failing me.[/b][/quote] Did we not have a Congressman swear on the Koran when taking an oath instead of the bible? Granted its not the president, but it's still a pretty powerful individual. The outrage was muted, at best. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Scot A Ellison Posted January 4, 2009 Author Share Posted January 4, 2009 Shryke, [quote name='Shryke' post='1637144' date='Jan 3 2009, 21.12']The problem is a large portion of the religious right in this country believe the US is a Christian nation, founded by Chrisitians for Christian purposes.[/quote] And those making that assumption are wrong. Tempra, No, there was a stink made about the Rep. being given his oath on a Koran. I thought it was a paticularly stupid stink but it was made nonetheless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tempra Posted January 4, 2009 Share Posted January 4, 2009 [quote name='Ser Scot A Ellison' post='1637165' date='Jan 3 2009, 21.41']Tempra, No, there was a stink made about the Rep. being given his oath on a Koran. I thought it was a paticularly stupid stink but it was made nonetheless.[/quote] made by who? A small minority of right wing commenters? In a nation of 300 million people, a "stink" will always be made by a few jackasses. There was no attempt by our leaders to stop him. No twisting of the laws to forbid him. No attempt to make it illegal. No attempt to tarnish this man forever. It was a small blurb on cnn.com. Whoopie do. Hardly the horror that meili would lead us to believe should have resulted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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