American Politics 18

[Elrostar]

Hmmm, I'm not certain actually. The cross has kind of expanded in meaning, it's the symbol for "hospital", for instance.

As a burial marker? Do you really see it on graves of anyone other than Christians? That's the issue.

I could point out that on graves at Arlington cemetery, they don't put crosses. They put a symbol on the grave marker (a cross, a star of David, or the crescent moon, or whatnot), but the grave markers themselves are not crosses.

I just hate how this guy portrays himself as something other than an extreme activist judge.

[Andriy Czarchenko]

Hmmm, I'm not certain actually. The cross has kind of expanded in meaning, it's the symbol for "hospital", for instance.

Well that´s usually different cross. Greek instead of Latin.

[Galactus]

As a burial marker?

That seems to depend, actually. Usually from what I've seen they use tombstones with approporiate religious symbols, but when it's just a marker (like on the war cemetaries) It's just one of the simple crosses.

(of course, part of that is trying to achieve a sense of uniformity, especially for the WWI ones, to convery the horrors of industrialized war. Which is kind of the opposite point of a personal tombstone)

[Peter Irving]

I for aesthetic reasons am going to say the cross should remain that and the "freedom" from religion foundation a a bunch of intolerant fucktards.

[Tempra]

Just another example of misinterpreting the first amendment to the most extreme and absurd levels.

[Swordfish]

This is what I want (exact numbers subject to change): A House of 1,000 members in three classes. 500 represent single-member districts like they do now. 400 are elected by proportional representation - any party gets one member per 1/4 per cent of the nationwide vote. These classes serve for two years as the House does now, and their members cannot be reelected. The third class is 100 people chosen by random lot - just as in a jury. The third class reforms every year, and anyone are eligible save those having previously served in Congress.

That would be an excellent way to basically insure that they get absolutely nothing done, and turning congress into an even bigger circus act than it is today.

[TrackerNeil]

Hmmm, I'm not certain actually. The cross has kind of expanded in meaning, it's the symbol for "hospital", for instance.

Uh-huh. Sure it has. Everyone who sees a cross thinks immediately of hospitals and not Christianity.

I don't get too exercised over stuff like this any more, but I think it's pretty disingenuous to think that this cross is anything but a Christian symbol. Leave it up if you want, but let's not gild the lilly; the cross was erected as a monument to a specific faith.

[DanteGabriel]

Hey, you know what they call the Red Cross in Muslim countries? The Red Crescent.

I can't see how one could deny that the cross is an explicitly Christian symbol.

[El-ahrairah]

That would be an excellent way to basically insure that they get absolutely nothing done, and turning congress into an even bigger circus act than it is today.

As if Congress is no circus act now? Anyhow I'd rather have citizens get nothing done, being "inexperienced", than career politicians get nothing done, being too busy bribing each other.

I don't get too exercised over stuff like this any more, but I think it's pretty disingenuous to think that this cross is anything but a Christian symbol. Leave it up if you want, but let's not gild the lilly; the cross was erected as a monument to a specific faith.

Of course it is a Christian symbol, but as I understand it the cross in question was erected 70 years ago, a time when such a symbol could accurately represent almost all Americans. And in any case it is a monument to fallen soldiers, not to the Christianity most of them professed.

[TrackerNeil]

Of course it is a Christian symbol, but as I understand it the cross in question was erected 70 years ago, a time when such a symbol could accurately represent almost all Americans. And in any case it is a monument to fallen soldiers, not to the Christianity most of them professed.

All of that boils down to the fact that a pervasively religious symbol was erected on public lands. As I said, I don't really care too much about this - I'm focused more on the issues that touch lives in some real way - but let's not kid ourselves. The cross was placed for religious reasons and those who want it to remain are motivated by religious reasons.

[Swordfish]

As if Congress is no circus act now?

Um... Did you miss the part of my post where I said 'more of a circus act than it is now'?

Either way, i stand by my point. Drawing people's names at random and putting them in congress is a monumentally horrible idea.

[Lord of Rhinos]

Hey, you know what they call the Red Cross in Muslim countries? The Red Crescent.

I can't see how one could deny that the cross is an explicitly Christian symbol.

All the atheist/agnostic girls I know who wear crosses as jewelry are not doing it because it is a Christian symbol.

[Annelise]

We're chasing the ball on a new idea (is it a trial balloon? is it the magic answer?) to pass a health care bill with a public option that states--likely small, and conservative states--could choose not to participate in.

[...]

Looks like they're really selling this idea pretty hard. Some key questions, which we'll try to answer today: Who's been approached about this? Will it assuage conservative Democrats who've been resistant to the public option? And will progressives, particularly in the House, be satisfied by a public option that may not be national, but that would leave that tough political decision to the governments of conservative states? We'll try to get you answers to all those questions.

http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com/2009/10...team.php?ref=mp

We hear a lot of stuff about the Pulic Option drama, just posting this because I thought it was an interesting incarnation/mutation.

[TerraPrime]

Re: El-ahrairah

Of course it is a Christian symbol, but as I understand it the cross in question was erected 70 years ago, a time when such a symbol could accurately represent almost all Americans.

What? There were no jews or muslims or atheists 70 years ago? How "almost all" is all 70 years ago, compared to now? Do you know?

And in any case it is a monument to fallen soldiers, not to the Christianity most of them professed.

A monument that uses Christian iconography.

Imagine if the monument had been a Star of David, or the pentagram of modern wiccan. You think you can manage to convince the majority of people that it's just a monument, with no significant religious meaning?

Re: Tarant

All the atheist/agnostic girls I know who wear crosses as jewelry are not doing it because it is a Christian symbol.

And some people think dressing in white robe with pointy hoods holding a noose is just plain Halloween costumes.

[Yagathai]

And some people think dressing in white robe with pointy hoods holding a noose is just plain Halloween costumes.

Wait, you have a problem with my ghost costume?

[El-ahrairah]

Either way, i stand by my point. Drawing people's names at random and putting them in congress is a monumentally horrible idea.

And yet we trust juries to make life-or-death decisions?

What? There were no jews or muslims or atheists 70 years ago? How "almost all" is all 70 years ago, compared to now? Do you know?

I couldn't say an exact number, but I'd say, (especially for Muslims) that back then, the demographics were such that those things were much less controversial.

A monument that uses Christian iconography.

Imagine if the monument had been a Star of David, or the pentagram of modern wiccan. You think you can manage to convince the majority of people that it's just a monument, with no significant religious meaning?

As I said it does have religious meaning, but that's not the reason it's there. It's there for the dead it honors, and has its particular shape because of their religion. In traditionally Christian countries a cross makes sense, just as in traditionally Jewish countries a Star of David does, and in traditionally Wiccan countries :P a pentagram does.

[Annelise]

All the atheist/agnostic girls I know who wear crosses as jewelry are not doing it because it is a Christian symbol.

Well, speaking for myself, I don't wear my cross as an expression of personal faith but I don't pretend it isn't a Christian symbol, either.

[Yagathai]

I couldn't say an exact number, but I'd say, (especially for Muslims) that back then, the demographics were such that those things were much less controversial.

Well, it's a good thing that we're living 70 years ago, when it was OK to marginalize minorities because there were less of them.

[TrackerNeil]

All the atheist/agnostic girls I know who wear crosses as jewelry are not doing it because it is a Christian symbol.

Well, if all the girls you know don't wear the cross as a Christian symbol then clearly the cross is not a Christian symbol. What was I thinking?

[Ormond]

And yet we trust juries to make life-or-death decisions?

The original pool from which juries are drawn may be chosen somewhat at random, but you don't finally get onto a jury until you have been examined by a judge to make sure that you don't have biases that would affect your judgement -- not to mention that both the prosecution and defense teams normally have the right to strike a certain number people from juries in important cases without specific cause, just based on their subjective interpretations of who might be unfavorable to their side. So who finally gets on a jury is far from being "random".