The Dany Like Thread

[Spastic Plastic]

I agree a bit with the post above. Although I like Dany as a character, and she's making a real effort to be a good ruler, she seems to become less and less sympathetic. There's even a scene in ADWD where

she flies into a rage and screams "I will teach these Sons of the Harpy WHAT IT MEANS TO WAKE THE DRAGON!!!!"

[Pinwheel]

[...] She starts out as basically, Sansa. All passive and terrified and ruled by men's wishes. Sold into marriage.

But then after she loses the baby, she does a bit of a 180 and starts being all Bass Ass Grown Woman. But it was too sudden, too much, too ADULT.

I actually thought her transformation began right after her marriage, when she was suffering through the saddle sores. She saw herself toughen and adapt when she didn't think she could, and it gave her confidence. Eventually she even dominated Drogo by doin' him the way she wanted, and she stood up to her brother and anyone else who told her she couldn't do something.

I think that when she lost her baby she also lost her innocence, but she had lost her passivity long before that.

[Dracarys!]

I think it fits well the setting in which the youngsters have to grow up fast. Don't forget that in Westeros adulthood comes at 16. Robb was 15 (?) and he also was treated as a man. Granted, we didn't have his POV, but take also Sansa, who is even younger and is also forced to grow up quickly due to her surroundings. Dany has been through a lot more in her years than many older women, and she constantly has to make hard decisions and take responsibility. I think that would age anyone. In all honesty, I also wouldn't mind that she was a few years older, but her chapters are convincing as they are for me.

OT: I like her. I really enjoy the exotic settings and I'm a sucker for geography/exploring. I just think she should be a bit more interested in Westeros' places and history, especially the Targ's rule, and should ask Barristan about everything he knows, so she could have at least a better view of the place she's supposed to conquer without the biased views of Viserys. Maybe she's afraid of hearing the truth?

(Edit: Clarity)

[trio]

Oh don't get me wrong, I have no objection to her character developing and toughening up.

I just wish she hadn't gone from 13 straight to 30.

I wish that we were given some more sense in the text of her extreme youth. Of how amazing it all is, that someone her age is doing all this.

I think it would make her even more astonishing if we were reminded of that. But it's been kinda shoved out of the way, as an inconvenience.

She's basically written like an adult. And that's what I think is a shame. I'm wholeheartedly in support of a person toughening up and being proactive (one of my Sansa bugbears is her continuing passivity, so I loved Dany making her own history), but I just wish she didn't come across as older than ME! :ohwell:

Edited to add: I realise it's a small point - I may quite well be the only one who wishes she had the occasional 14 year old thought! :D I just think it'd make me LOVE her, rather than respect her.

[Dracarys!]

I think we have the problem that we don't have the thoughts from the people around her so that we can see how they view her. Maybe if someone was looking from an outside perspective in form of one of her retainers/advisors, there would be more focus on how young she is. For the moment we only have access to her POV in regards to herself and I think that in her head she can't allow herself to think about having "normal" 14-year-old thoughts, but I do agree with you, it would make her more human if she did. It'll be interesting if other POVs get to meet her and see their thoughts regarding her.

[makotohanabi]

Glad to see a Dany Like thread, especially since I'm surrounded by many Dany haters.

Things that make Dany my favorite is her character development over the books. She starts out as a scared passive kid, sold to a barbarian by her brother. She figures out that Viserys isn't the great person she thought he was, and seeing her stand up to him is a great thing to see. She makes the best of her situation, but makes mistakes along the way. After losing the baby and Drogo she has to grow up really quickly and care for her people. She cares for the downtrodden and forgotten people and they genuinely love her. Glad she's taking the time to stay put and learn how to rule. She has made mistakes and needs to learn from them quickly since her mistakes affect everyone. It's refreshing to read about her self doubts and worries.

Would be nice to see another POV (Barristan, Strong Belwas, or Missandei) even as a prologue just to see how Dany's people see her.

Arya is another one of my favorites.

[King Bronn l]

Liking Danny? Can't be bothered. I got social climbing to do. Of course if she shows up at KL, Lord Bronn of the Queens Guard does have that certain ring.................

[The SmilingKnight]

Oh don't get me wrong, I have no objection to her character developing and toughening up.

I just wish she hadn't gone from 13 straight to 30.

Yeah well things like that happen after you go insane, die and get reborn in a fire.

It would be totally out of character to see her thinking or behaving like a regular teenage girl.

She is not. She is a Mother of Dragons, baby.

I think her age does show in some moments, reflected through her lack of experience and some, still idealistic views on certain things and her interaction with men around her.

[Rockroi]

I cleaned up a few of the following posts:

I don't like her him because he she is stupid, allowing for his whole cause to be destroyed for his own stupidity. But you are right, without her his name or armies she he would be a beautiful guy woman. I'm sure he she would have a place on the Street of Silk.

And

His Her sense of entitlement comes from his her background, from living so long with in isolation bitter Viserys and spending his her childhood in a position of authority and privilege wherein everyone did what you said and nobody acted dishonorably or "tricked" you on the run, always afraid of nothing the Usurpers knives.

It is not something he she has chosen himself herself. Its a delusion that is slowly but inexorably shed away by the world. He She would have will come to understand it had it not gotten him killed and will grow even more with it but we see her now at the beginning or close to the middle of that process and that was the end of his progress. Poor kid.

and

He She starts out as basically, Sansa. All passive and easily angered terrified and ruled by men's wishes. Sold into marriage.

But then after his father is taken into custody she loses the baby, he she does a bit of a 180 and starts being all Bass Ass Grown Wo man. But it was too sudden, too much, too ADULT.

Most of the time I get no sense, for example, of his her age. He’s She's what? 14? 15? I find that gets totally lost in the mix. Even her his internal mono dialogue sounds more like a 30 year old.

You can say "Oh well it's the environment, the brutal culture, the pressure to appear invunerable, the loss of most of his family the baby"....All good points, I guess.

The only thing is that we get no sense that it IS the environment. Even Catlyn, Edmure, and Blackfish Jorah (who, being alien to the environment should have noted the difference) treated him her like an adult woman.

It's just something that really jumps out at me by it's absence, from his her chapters. I keep picturing this rather hard-looking teenager. And then wondering why nobody else seems to be doing the same.

Sure, he she has a direwolf, castles, alliances dragons and an army. But still - she's he's 14 16, FFS! And yet everyone reacts no different to him her than if he she were a 30 year old.

And

I agree a bit with the post above. Although I like him Dany as a character, and he’s she's making a real effort to be a good ruler, he she seems to become less and less sympathetic. There's even a scene in ASoS ADWD where he blatantly bitch slaps Edmure for something that was CLEARLY his own fault and then kills half the Karstak clan who were angry for Robb allowing his own mother to, in effect, set policy for his whole realm.

I mean, … why do people hate Robb Stark so much????

[Drowned Princess]

I also like Dany A LOT. I like her effort to adapt to all of her situations even at her own expense (eg wearing the slippers that hurt, always being appropriately dressed), and I don't believe it's just so she can get what she wants, it's because she does actually seem to have a degree of respect for other cultures, following her experience with the Dothraki. She wants to be a good and strong queen for all her people's benefit, it's not simply a lust for power anymore.

Also my favourite characters are the ones that absolutely don't take any shit. With Dany, you can see her put up with bullshit for as long as she possibly can and then it's "screw this, release the dragons".

[Lord Varys]

Dany's character development does work, I think, if you keep in mind that Daenerys Targaryen is not a mere mortal woman, she is, in a sense, a prophesied savior of some sorts, who has thus certain abilities and qualities that set her apart from the rest of humanity.

And all her chapters in AGoT show us not only the hatching of the dragon eggs but also the hatching of Azor Ahai out of the shell of the girl Daenerys Targaryen. A normal human being, not backed or being guided by prophetic dreams, would certainly not have been able to do what Daenerys did at the end of AGoT. And I do not only speak about the blood magic, I speak about the emotional trauma she went through. In her last chapter she repeats in her mind that she must not look back or she would be lost, but I doubt that a normal human being would have been able to go through this all without crushing eventually. She did not only lose her child, she antagonized the people of her husband - which put her in more dangerous position than Viserys's was ever in -, and then she realized that she had sacrificed her husband, too, and killed what was left of him with her own hand. But she did not even feel really suicidal in the end, she felt different.

It is most evident when Dany does not react like a normal mother would after she is told what happened to Rhaego during the the ritual. She is emotionally completely detached from her son, and only cares about her dragon eggs. She would not do this if she would not be the person she is - a Targaryen, and not a common Targaryen, but the Princess that was promised.

So I do not really see a problem with Daenerys' personality. She is, even more than Lord Tywin, a most special person. But her sort comes not only once in century but once in an age.

And there is nothing wrong if this kind of people act prematurely like adults. Even more so if they are of royal blood, and to an extent accustomed to the privileges that go with this (and Dany had gotten a great deal of that as khaleesi). And as Mother of Dragons she has, in a sense, left the sphere of mere mortals to a degree - in her own eyes, and in the eyes of her now most devoted followers. The line 'they were hers now like they had never been Drogo's' shows the depth of this - especially as it had already been established that the bloodriders of the Dothraki were much more devoted and loyal than the Aegon's Kingsguard - which was also known for their devotion.

Oh, and I like Dany, of course. The whole storyline about the exiled Old Dynasty trying to get back what they once had was one of the things that hooked me to the series when I first started to read it.

[Errant Bard]

Dany's character development does work, I think, if you keep in mind that Daenerys Targaryen is not a mere mortal woman, she is, in a sense, a prophesied savior of some sorts, who has thus certain abilities and qualities that set her apart from the rest of humanity.

That sounds too much like asking to like her because she is powered by authorial fiat and isn't bound by the rules all the other characters work under, in a circular fashion

From my point of view, her (or any character's) development falls apart if I don't manage to forget she's this story's mary sue a fictional character with a specific role. As such, a prophesied saviour has to be developed ten times better to be as credible as the average joe, not ten times worse. So, if I have to use auto-suggestion and meta-analysis, then the author failed... It's like the epitome of tell don't show: not only was I shown nothing, but I need to rely on external explanation to make it bearable. Meh.

Anyway, I agree, despite what Rockroi says: Dany is no "mere mortal", there are significant differences between her and the rest of the cast (minus Jon) when it comes to what they gain and how, to progress towards their goal... So far. (I actually find the implication that starting from being an isolated fugitive and sold in slavery can be likened to being the unchallenged heir of one half of the continent baffling.) That's the very problem.

Other PoVs in her vicinity, that don't come from sycophants, would do her character good. Personality wise, she's fine and likeable, she just needs to stop forcing the readers to remind themselves constantly that her breaking suspension of disbelief is normal.

[Spastic Plastic]

I find it funny how much Dany is hated by some people. She has to live with a barbarian horde, raise three dragons, wander in the desert, and fight endless wars. But no, it's Jon who should be King, and if Dany is lucky she can be his consort.

The funniest of Dany's lines isn't her own, I remember. It's her handmaid (Irri?) who says it in AGOT at the market: "You have not laughed like this since Khal Rhaggat was crowned".

[Errant Bard]

I find it funny how much Dany is hated by some people. She has to live with a barbarian horde, raise three dragons, wander in the desert, and fight endless wars. But no, it's Jon who should be King, and if Dany is lucky she can be his consort.

I can't remember anyone saying that, do you feel it's a regular occurrence? As Koolkat pointed, the so-called "hate" for Dany is usually more complex. (well, except in rare cases of drive-by trolling, as seen above)

[alguien]

In terms of being a leader, I'm hoping we see the "meat" of Dany's development in ADWD. Its one thing to best a foe in a power struggle, but another to successfully administrate and retain that power. Robert Baratheon is a good example of this phenomena.

In terms of her development thus far, my favorite passage was her dream of dragon's fire and how she subsequently developed callouses on her skin when riding. A small thing but I think it worked well as a metaphor for how she began to "toughen" up.

[The SmilingKnight]

Dany's character development does work, I think, if you keep in mind that Daenerys Targaryen is not a mere mortal woman, she is, in a sense, a prophesied savior of some sorts, who has thus certain abilities and qualities that set her apart from the rest of humanity.

And all her chapters in AGoT show us not only the hatching of the dragon eggs but also the hatching of Azor Ahai out of the shell of the girl Daenerys Targaryen. A normal human being, not backed or being guided by prophetic dreams, would certainly not have been able to do what Daenerys did at the end of AGoT. And I do not only speak about the blood magic, I speak about the emotional trauma she went through. In her last chapter she repeats in her mind that she must not look back or she would be lost, but I doubt that a normal human being would have been able to go through this all without crushing eventually.

Well said Lord varys, again.

I agree but i would add that my impression of her tragedy was that she went completely insane and attempted a suicide rather then knowingly went into flames to hatch Dragons.

At least to a large degree since it really a mix of her reaction to loosing everything and her innate abilities and future destiny pull.

As Koolkat pointed, the so-called "hate" for Dany is usually more complex

No it isnt, its pure hate disquised into resenting every little thing she did or didnt do, that she should have done or should not have done - in attempt to portray it as logical or reasonable.

[Errant Bard]

No it isnt, its pure hate disquised into resenting every little thing she did or didnt do, that she should have done or should not have done - in attempt to portray it as logical or reasonable.

That's a powerful argument, but I remain unconvinced. You guys have something else than unsupported assertions you try to bully your audience into agreeing with you? Because, as Koolkat said, there are Dany hate thread in existence, and these have pages upon pages of posters who don't have any more "pure hate" for her than they have worship for Jon.

Not to say haters don't exist, but implying that any criticism equals "pure hate" masqueraded as a logical argument? Meh, that's fanatic talk.

[The SmilingKnight]

That's a powerful argument, but I remain unconvinced. You guys have something else than unsupported assertions you try to bully your audience into agreeing with you? Because, as Koolkat said, there are Dany hate thread in existence, and these have pages upon pages of posters who don't have any more "pure hate" for her than they have worship for Jon.

Not to say haters don't exist, but implying that any criticism equals "pure hate" masqueraded as a logical argument? Meh, that's fanatic talk.

Pure hate might be a too strong a classification. Rather varying degrees of personal dislike.

[shadow catlady]

That sounds too much like asking to like her because she is powered by authorial fiat and isn't bound by the rules all the other characters work under, in a circular fashion

[...]she just needs to stop forcing the readers to remind themselves constantly that her breaking suspension of disbelief is normal.

Are you saying the miraculous dragon-hatching is authorial fiat rather than characterization by events of the story?

I read it as the latter (though I may be missing your point.) Thus I don't feel like I'm asked to break suspension of disbelief any more with her than I am with other characters.

[Lady Blackfish]

I don't hate Dany, but I probably qualify as more of a critic than a fan. I feel the existence of plot armor that some have mentioned, and while I'm still able to follow her story, I would probably be more excited about it if the plot armor wasn't there making itself noticeable to me.

I don't have a problem with her claim/entitlement, I think it's actually interesting in a kind of Javert-like obsession way. I also recall a comment the boarder Enquerrand once made that Dany's willingness to use barbaric tactics adds to her depth, keeps her from being too perfect.

I did find her transition from unempowered girl (when you basically have no choice but to sympathize with her) to superwoman ... unexciting to read about, though. It's exciting in the sense that we get a lot of flashy badass moments, but it's very unreal to me, I cannot relate to it at all. Perhaps some of it does come down to my being a female reader. No matter how badass I want to be, I don't get to automatically have my way in traditionally male spheres just because I am divinely gifted with weapons of mass destruction. It's noticeably different than the rest of the books, and for whatever reason, in this series in particular, it's not as interesting to me as the real ways in which real women have to deal with their real social limitations.

But I get that some characters, male or female, are just not as much about realism. GRRM is pretty up front with the fact that Dany is Super Special Fantasy Woman, and that's good. It's just not among the things that I find most interesting in ASOIAF. There is an exceptionalism to her empowerment that kind of turns me off, even though I recognize that within the pulp genre it's a difficult situation for an author to begin with. Yes Dany being divinely gifted with weapons of mass destruction is way out of anything I'd ever be able to relate to, but OTOH, a reason is provided that seems compatible with the larger dichotomy of magic/fantasy/romanticism vs reason/realism/cynicism within the series.

I still was intellectually invested in her chapters, but not emotionally. Which goes back to my not hating her: I don't, in fact I find it hard to have any feelings about her at all.

And I must add, I still find this Robb comparison really limited. Robb never earned the power that he was born into, but neither did he have a dramatic empowerment storyline that delivered him from the throes of rags to the lap of riches. We are constantly reminded of Robb's youth, too, it's just that it happens through the POV of his mother, whom people (fans, not GRRM) dismiss as a constantly bickering nag. GRRM himself casts Robb's power and pwnage into a context of doubt, because we see him through Catelyn's eyes. That readers ignore this and declare that GRRM really should have told the story through Robb's POV instead of the boring nagging mom, that happens, yes, but that's the readers who make that claim, not GRRM. GRRM always wanted us to doubt Robb, readers just don't want to because they don't like Catelyn. She treats her son like a man in order to encourage him to grow up, but we are always aware that she has doubts, in fact a lot of readers hate her for being so constantly negative and emasculating (even thinking of him as the little baby that she carried away from her father's home so many years ago, missing the little boy he should be instead of the hard man he has to be). It's totally disingenuous to imply that GRRM created the same proportion of clashing perspectives in Robb's and Dany's narrative.

Also, comparing Robb's chastisement of Edmure (oh no, they yelled at him in private and made him get married) to some of the acts Dany takes doesn't make any sense to me. I myself am okay with Dany's actions since I don't mind reading about unsavory motives/means, but the comparison is flawed and misses an important component in why it turns off some people (magnitude).