Who do you imagine to be the most beautiful/handsome person on the ASOIAF planet, living or dead?

[Horatz]

Rhaegar strikes me as an (unfortunate? depends on you POV :P) cross between Cloud Strife, Sephirot and Jacob Black, haha. :D

I mean he is

-A harp player

-Emo

-Kicks more ass than anybody has a right to

-Is discribed as "Ohhhh so purrrfect in his looks" and everything he does

-Has the good of everybody in mind

-fights with uber-fancy gear

-Has white hair.

[Lady Blackfish]

The Greyjoys. Asha, Aeron, Euron...even Theon. Yeah. I know.

Actually I understand this, though I was answering the question more as beautiful or handsome than sexy (sometimes different for me). I always imagine Theon as extremely good looking, and ass enough to know it. Euron works better for me as a dangerous bad boy than Sandor, maybe it's something about the over-the-top quality of the Greyjoys' twistedness.

BTW by bombshell I didn't mean Cersei reminds me of Pamela Anderson at all. But I do think that her coldness is more internal than external. I always feel like she projects desirability, but when we get inside her head we see that she is not at all sex positive, she's almost frigid in some ways, never enjoying sex. Even with Jaime, whom she claims to always want, there's this weird conquest overtone to some of their sexual encounters where's pleading with him to stop and he doesn't care at all. I always thought that Cersei's coldness is something of a surprise, because you'd like to think she was this sexually liberated woman but she is not, not at all.

[Sidonie]

Rhaegar strikes me as an (unfortunate? depends on you POV :P) cross between Cloud Strife, Sephirot and Jacob Black, haha. :D

I mean he is

-A harp player

-Emo

LOL! :laugh: I just never thought of him as "emo" before, but it's true. He's always going off playing sad music to himself.

[Datepalm]

Actually I understand this, though I was answering the question more as beautiful or handsome than sexy

I don't really get this, to be honest. We can't see them. If someone strikes me as sexy, i'm just going to imagine them as good looking, unless its completely explicitely stated otherwise (Tyrion or the Hound levels, here.)

Someday i'm going to find someone else who digs Aeron. Someday. *sigh*

BTW by bombshell I didn't mean Cersei reminds me of Pamela Anderson at all. But I do think that her coldness is more internal than external. I always feel like she projects desirability, but when we get inside her head we see that she is not at all sex positive, she's almost frigid in some ways, never enjoying sex. Even with Jaime, whom she claims to always want, there's this weird conquest overtone to some of their sexual encounters where's pleading with him to stop and he doesn't care at all. I always thought that Cersei's coldness is something of a surprise, because you'd like to think she was this sexually liberated woman but she is not, not at all.

I think part of it is that she dosen't seem sexy in the slightest in that scene where Bran sees them, (she's also supposedly resisting there, IIRC, though the book is lent out and I can't check.) right at the beginning, which is maybe why I never imagined her as really seductive in any way. Totally gorgeous, but completely lacking any charisma or attractiveness, But then other times she seems a lot more warm and proactive - chasing Jaime down dressed as a commoner when they were teenagers or seducing Lancel, for god knows what. I don't think she's so much frigid as so screwed up in all her relashionships that even the consensual sexual ones are something of a trial. (The much lamented Myrish swamp might be notable here.)

[Errant Bard]

If we're including backstory, the most beautiful woman is Shiera Seastar, the bastard daughter of Aegon IV.

Thirded. With a bigger image. But Amoka's portraits are generally gorgeous.

[Lady Blackfish]

I don't really get this, to be honest. We can't see them. If someone strikes me as sexy, i'm just going to imagine them as good looking, unless its completely explicitely stated otherwise (Tyrion or the Hound levels, here.)

Well to be honest, what I find sexy can get pretty eccentric *cough*Jeff Goldblum*cough*, and if not so oddball, then at least more based on personality than pure physical appearance. But I don't know if Jeff Goldblum would qualify as the world's most beautiful/handsome man? I don't know where one's sense of beauty comes from, whether it's all culturally suggested or if there's some evolutionary element to things or how much is which one or what, but I can imagine Loras Tyrell in such a way that registers in my brain as beautiful, yet not really find him sexy. That look is just not usually my thing.

I think part of it is that she dosen't seem sexy in the slightest in that scene where Bran sees them

She's not turning on her charm there, but she doesn't really have to with Jaime either. The seductive aspect of the scene I think is supposed to be the clandestine nature and, I suppose, the incest. If that's your thing, you know. A lot of her charm really comes alive from Jaime's perspective, which might be as it should be, since then it's not like the narrative is sexualizing her so much.

[cybroleach]

No votes for Ygritte yet? Then let me be the first. Fiery redhead, slim and toned as a result of her lifestyle, and really comfortable with herself. What's not to like? She's got a very Lyanna vibe, but redhead (which I really like). As for the other prominent redheads in the series, Cat is a bit old for my taste, though I can see where LF was coming from as a kid. And both she and Mel don't give off the fiery vibe that makes redheads that much hotter. But Ygritte's in a world where beauty does not matter as much and they don't have the luxury resources or time to make people unnaturally beautiful.

Edit: I said she was jailbait now, thinking she was 17ish. Wiki says 19 so nvm about the jailbait. Not even sketchy for me now.

While she's probably my favourate personality. (& I'm sucker for redheads as well) But for a thread about beauty her discription just makes her so homely vs the known 'beauties'. If we were playing Marry/F*ck/kill she'd be my marry for sure.

[Datepalm]

Well to be honest, what I find sexy can get pretty eccentric *cough*Jeff Goldblum*cough*, and if not so oddball, then at least more based on personality than pure physical appearance. But I don't know if Jeff Goldblum would qualify as the world's most beautiful/handsome man? I don't know where one's sense of beauty comes from, whether it's all culturally suggested or if there's some evolutionary element to things or how much is which one or what, but I can imagine Loras Tyrell in such a way that registers in my brain as beautiful, yet not really find him sexy. That look is just not usually my thing.

I seem to fail at that. If the text says so-and-so is stunningly beautiful, I just kind of tend to accept that without necessarily drawing any particular mental picture. (so ranking attempts are useless.) Though I do get what you mean about 'types' - Cercei the classical blonde, Catelyn all regal and a bit...British, Arianne the sultry harem girl, something all-american about Margaery, etc, and most readers are sufficiently aware of the types to draw in a lot of assumptions on our own that GRRM can then play around with, reinforcing or deconstructing.

I totally get Jeff Goldblum, FWIW.

She's not turning on her charm there, but she doesn't really have to with Jaime either. The seductive aspect of the scene I think is supposed to be the clandestine nature and, I suppose, the incest. If that's your thing, you know. A lot of her charm really comes alive from Jaime's perspective, which might be as it should be, since then it's not like the narrative is sexualizing her so much.

But Jaimes POV of her is so...squicky. He always thinks of her in some faintly mutually demeaning way when he remembers their trysts, all shoving her about or ripping her clothes, and the whole associated descriptions and language are just not, y'know, hot in any way, merely dirty. (and when they do meet, its the whole "over their son's corpse, with bonus time-of-month". um, yeah.)

[evanesco75]

I guess perspective matters there :) What we find perverse, they find hot. Seriously though, people can be turned on by the weirdest things. I think with Jaime and Cersei, there are a couple of things:

1. Cersei so clearly dominates Jaime in all aspects; from inciting him into joining the KG onward. That's evident in her attitude toward Jaime: she's used to manipulating him, used to him doing what she wants. It's only later in SoS that we begin to see him rebelling, disagreeing with her. I think that's the reason for their dynamic wrt sex: she dominates him outside the bedroom and cleverly, she gives him the upper hand during sex so he won't feel as if he's constantly submitting to her will. I don't know, I think men can be manipulated thusly, primarily due to the importance they attach to sex (not saying women don't, just that women are more inclined to using it as a tool especially when you look at medieval times/the past, where women didn't have significant independence).

2. I think Lady Blackfish touched on this brilliantly: for all Cersei's beauty, sex appeal etc, she's really not so highly sexed; in fact, from her interactions with Taena and her memories of Robert, sex isn't very easy for her to lose herself into. I think she's all about maintaining control over herself and thus, the fake resisting thing she does with Jaime also reinforces her self-image as being somehow perfect and even 'above' all that. Even her sex with Jaime is partly driven by his status as 'part of her' and her mirror image, As Tyrion muses.

Also, the twins are aware of the 'wrongness' of their relationship, perceived or genuine. The thrill of being clandestine and 'wrong' maybe added to by the whole 'Jaime forcing Cersei' game they play at. Because it is just a game.

[Datepalm]

I guess perspective matters there :) What we find perverse, they find hot.

Yeah, but, we're the reader. Is there anyone anywhere (on earth, not Westeros) who finds Cercei/Jaime at all appealing or sexy a relashionship? I think its spcifically built to not be. If you want people to have any shred of sympathy for a couple, don't show them having sex over their son's corpse. Just saying. Anyways,point, in as much as I have one, is that the effort GRRM puts into making Jaime/Cercei so, well, yucky (Its not an inhrent thing. I'm sure GRRM could write hot incest if he wanted to) actively demotes from the sexiness of both, becaus any time we see either in a sexual situation, its the least attractive thing ever, so it also makes is harder for me to imagine them as really appealing people.

A thought - could Jeff Goldblum play a Greyjoy? Euron, maybe?

[evanesco75]

I get your point completely. The first encounter is capped by Bran-from-wall, the second by deadJoff. It's meant to be savage and rough and dirty, even. At the very least, GRRM wants to highlight the consequences of incest, Lannister style. But at the same time, he gives us glimpses that highlight the depth of their bond. I confess to finding it rather poignant in AFFC, when Cersei tells Qyburn Jaime will come for her. Her certainty that they 'entered the world together, and they'd leave it together' was actually sad. The sex brought them much closer and it destroyed them too.

Also, some people are weird enough to find stuff like fucking-during-period hot (I know, it's a definite minority and I don't include myself in that group, but to each his own, eh?) *ducks for cover*

It would be really interesting to get a glimpse into a Targ incest marriage. I wonder whether it would coloured by the same lens? The fact that generations married siblings and, despite the resultant mad streak in some, there were quite a few renowned, well-regarded rulers in there indicates to me that GRRM isn't even simply saying 'incest is bad period'. Rhaegar was the offspring of Aerys and Rhaella, as was Dany after all.

[Datepalm]

. Her certainty that they 'entered the world together, and they'd leave it together' was actually sad.

Its also pretty nasty though - Cerceis all over Jaime, only when she's run out of options and needs someone to die for her, and she knows he's the last fool she can count on. (unless she can't anymore.)

It would be really interesting to get a glimpse into a Targ incest marriage. I wonder whether it would coloured by the same lens? The fact that generations married siblings and, despite the resultant mad streak in some, there were quite a few renowned, well-regarded rulers in there indicates to me that GRRM isn't even simply saying 'incest is bad period'. Rhaegar was the offspring of Aerys and Rhaella, as was Dany after all.

RIght, I don't think its the incest, at all. Its them being them. For some reason, GRRM goes out of his way to make this particular relashionship just stunningly unappealing. (I call CorpseJoffSex, in a church, on her period, extra effort. I don't have the book to hand to look up quotes, but most of their encounters, IIRC, tend to run towards the vulgar more than the romantic, even without the ocassional bout of the total grotesque, like CorpseJoff or Bran.) (its not like rough, clothes ripping, up-against-the-wall sex can't be written as hot - see Arys/Arianne - but this really isn't what we have here.)

[evanesco75]

Agreed. But we're meant to believe that Jaime for his part does/did love Cersei, I think. At least, prior to their reunion his thoughts of her, while focused mostly on the sexual are also possessive and quite, for lack of a better word, lovestruck. He also seems so sure that they're meant to be together always, and he's been completely faithful, almost to the tune of 'I could never imagine being with another'. Then of course you see the unravelling,as he gets a genuine glimpse of what she is. Her cheating helped too, I'm sure :)

I agree with you, Cersei's focus seems more about using him (at the same time she sees him as her equal prior loss-of-hand. He's the one man 'worthy' of her). Is it possible to conclude that she never really loved him? (I'm not even sure she can ever truly love anyone apart from Joffrey)

Is that why the dynamic/sex is portrayed the way it is, then? Her lack of true feeling/inability to genuinely reciprocate Jaime's version of love) makes their relationship inherently twisted?

Hmm.

I seem to have derailed this thread, apologies. I'll conclude by getting back OT: I think beauty is subjective :) But for me, the 2 R Baratheons, and Arianne seem pretty damned gorgeous!

[Faint]

But we're meant to believe that Jaime for his part does/did love Cersei, I think. At least, prior to their reunion his thoughts of her, while focused mostly on the sexual are also possessive and quite, for lack of a better word, lovestruck. He also seems so sure that they're meant to be together always, and he's been completely faithful, almost to the tune of 'I could never imagine being with another'.

This is certainly true, although, personally, I've always found this dynamic perhaps the most unconvincing in the series. It really borders on disbelief that Jaime could be so blind to the real character of Cersei despite seemingly spending more time with her than any other person in the world apparently. And given how transparent Cersei is, not only to us as readers but to the other characters in the story besides Jaime, we are almost forced to conclude that Jaime is the most naive and bewitched person imaginable. Yet, as this is true according to the books, we must accept it I suppose and accept too that Jaime prior to losing his hand was about as mature and emotionally developed as Joffrey, if not less so.

As for the topic of this forum, I note that the original poster wrote in "most beautiful/handsome," which to me is significant because the word beautiful can connote something more than simply good looks but the word handsome, used in conjunction with the word beauty, seems to me an indication that the poster simply wanted to know which characters are portrayed as the best looking. That being the case, I think the answer is surely Jaime, in regard to males, and Cersei, and possibly the Red Woman as well, on the female side.

[Lady Blackfish]

I recall thinking that Jaime and Cersei were "supposed" to take the fantasy grand affair and heap so much bad-wrongness onto it to shatter the fantasy via overload. That is, it starts out in a way that intrigues and appeals to a certain scandalous sex appeal and then adds so much scandal on top of it that it makes you wonder how you ever, ever found it a turn-on.

Jeff Goldblum should, ahhhh, play Aeron, yes yes I think that would be swell, yes, yeeeessss.

[evanesco75]

This is certainly true, although, personally, I've always found this dynamic perhaps the most unconvincing in the series. It really borders on disbelief that Jaime could be so blind to the real character of Cersei despite seemingly spending more time with her than any other person in the world apparently. And given how transparent Cersei is, not only to us as readers but to the other characters in the story besides Jaime, we are almost forced to conclude that Jaime is the most naive and bewitched person imaginable.

Well, Cersei and Tyrion have both called our Jaime a fool more than once; in some ways, he has been more gullible than those two (while I agree completely about Cersei being transparent). Jaime's more direct and on-the-surface and also more trusting of his siblings (because he cares for them both and knows they reciprocate, compared to the venomous relationship between the other 2). He's the common factor between them and that also makes him more susceptible to be fooled or misled by either of them.

But he's learning. I wish that he'd seen through Tyrion's parting words, but that's a topic for another time.

[Blackfish Blues]

Someday i'm going to find someone else who digs Aeron. Someday. *sigh*

Jeff Goldblum should, ahhhh, play Aeron, yes yes I think that would be swell, yes, yeeeessss.

Aeron is my fave Greyjoy. Jeff Goldblum is hot. Where do I sign up? :D

[Lady Blackfish]

BTW Datepalm, I will say this too: I never considered Cersei the most sexualized female character in the books, that would be Dany. There was always something about Cersei's sexiness that was supposed to make her unsympathetic to us as the reader (vile sexy woman, do not tempt me with thy foul ways! etc) so if that's what you're saying and I think you are (?), I actually agree. But at the same time, Tyrion, one of Martin's most mouthpiecey mouthpiece characters, concedes her allure, IIRC, so I can still manage to access it.

And sexiness aside, I imagine her very beautiful. To be on topic.

[mummer]

Cersei's focus seems more about using him (at the same time she sees him as her equal prior loss-of-hand. He's the one man 'worthy' of her). Is it possible to conclude that she never really loved him? (I'm not even sure she can ever truly love anyone apart from Joffrey)

I think Cersei absolutely loved Jaime and still does on some level. But she's obsessed with being strong, and hates any sign of weakness in herself or others, and thinks of love as a vulnerability. She's trying to be Tywin.

I don't think she would be as cruel and vehement in her dismissal of Jaime if she hadn't truly cared for him. When she mocks him about his hand, it feels like the way we can lash out at a lover (or a family member) that goes way beyond what we'd say to anyone else we were angry at, because we feel that they've let us down and it seems really important that they share our pain. Cersei tells herself she feels nothing for him any more, but we already know that she lies to herself all the time.

[Datepalm]

BTW Datepalm, I will say this too: I never considered Cersei the most sexualized female character in the books, that would be Dany. There was always something about Cersei's sexiness that was supposed to make her unsympathetic to us as the reader (vile sexy woman, do not tempt me with thy foul ways! etc) so if that's what you're saying and I think you are (?), I actually agree. But at the same time, Tyrion, one of Martin's most mouthpiecey mouthpiece characters, concedes her allure, IIRC, so I can still manage to access it.

So does Ned, but in both cases they're almost surprised to notice it. Her charms only really seem to be effective if you're a close relative she's slept with.

I agree that Dany is the most sexualized, in the sense that sex just pervades her storyline - in quantity, quality, plot significance, personal issues, background detail (how decadently oriental do you need to be to stick 100 foot high etoric carving on external city walls?) , etc, but her sexuality is always such a commodity, eventually to herself also. And now with the convergence of suitors, "who gets to fuck Dany" is all but a mcguffiny plot coupon. Her sexuality is commodity in the meta of the narrative, not just within the story. I'm hoping this gets subverted eventually, but right now its a bit offputting.