[BOOK SPOILERS] Do you think the HBO adaption will make certain characters more sympathetic?

[Xenophon]

So far, Robert Baratheon has been far more sympathetic to me than he ever was in the book. For one thing, his love for Lyanna seems genuine and sincere; whereas in the book, it seemed like a schoolboy crush he'd chosen to romantasize beyond belief. (And it seemed this way to me from the beginning, even before Ned called Robert out on never really knowing Lyanna.) Secondly, Mark Addy brings a sort of gravity, or weariness to the role that makes me sympathize a lot more with Robert.

In general, Robert struck me as a more complex, layered character here than in the books. He seemed grimmer, and his jovial antics seemed like an unconvincing mask to conceal his depression and misery. This was true to an extent too in the book, however, I thought that there Robert was a mostly happy guy, who only broke down during moments of great unhappiness. Otherwise, he was happy drinking, hunting, and whoring most of the time, and self- awareness only came to him in rare flashes. Here, he seems to realize what a joke he’s become. When he says his line (like in the books) “You will work while I eat, drink, and whore myself into an early grave.” It just seemed like him being jolly in the books, however, when Addy delivered the line, it had great pathos, like “ha ha ha dude, but seriously, I JUST WANT TO DIE!!!”

Interesting. I agree with everything you said about how Robert seems much more self-aware and world-weary. But I also think HBO is really emphasizing what a jerk he is, in a way that also makes him less likable than in the books. IMO, the first episode draws a parallel between Viserys' cruelty to Dany and Robert's treatment of Cersei, and in the second episode, Mark Addy does a masterful job of showing his callousness in the way he tells Ned to kill Lady. So, I totally agree that he's a more complex character than in the books, I'm just not sure if he's a more sympathetic one.

[Hyper]

A lot of the complaints (not all) about the characters being portrayed in a different way seems to stem from people forgetting that the ASOIAF series descriptions of characters all come from POVs/individual narrators. And often, these narrators are unreliable. (they only see part of a character, or are colored by their viewpoints)

What the show runners did - which I think is admirable - is that for many of these controversial choices, they tried to assemble a more of a realistic complex version of the character. This is even more the case for non-POV characters. (or characters that get their POVs much later, like Jamie and Cersei)

[KyleLitke]

I think Sansa will be seen as more sympathetic because television viewers will be constantly reminded that she's a child.

I think a lot of book readers forget that when they judge her.

[Tywin's bastard]

Interesting. I agree with everything you said about how Robert seems much more self-aware and world-weary. But I also think HBO is really emphasizing what a jerk he is, in a way that also makes him less likable than in the books. IMO, the first episode draws a parallel between Viserys' cruelty to Dany and Robert's treatment of Cersei, and in the second episode, Mark Addy does a masterful job of showing his callousness in the way he tells Ned to kill Lady. So, I totally agree that he's a more complex character than in the books, I'm just not sure if he's a more sympathetic one.

And I find it interesting as I think the book shows us the same things the show has and does not give us a less complex character. I don't really see how the show makes Robert's love for Lyanna any more real since he truly seems heartbroken about it in the book as well.

The show might give a bit more nuanced view of Robert when we get to the point where he gets scenes that aren't in the book but this far I don't think it has done that.

[Xenophon]

And I find it interesting as I think the book shows us the same things the show has and does not give us a less complex character.

For me at least, the visual/no POV medium is really bringing some aspects of his character out that I didn't remember from the book. Maybe I'm misremembering how I felt when I read it, but I don't recall being as disgusted with book Robert as I am with TV Robert. For example, the banquet scene where we see him practically making out with some woman and then cut directly to Cersei's face, really drove home to me how cruel he is to his wife, especially in the context of the episode where we also see Dany being abused by her brother. IIRC, I wasn't as disturbed by his whoring in the book; it was a character flaw, to be sure, but I don't remember thinking he was an abusive husband, like I do in the TV show.

Also, like Myrish swan, I remember book Robert as switching between happy and morose. TV Robert's happiness, OTOH seems to me much more like a mask. There's something about Mark Addy's expression that suggests grief just below the surface to me.

[Bishop437]

I've never felt anything but sympathy for Cat and don't understand where the 'hate' for her seems to come from. She was always a good character imo and the events of the red wedding left my stunned. I'm only a few chapters into FFC and I know she's not dead but should I expect my perceptions of her to change through the course of the novel?

Its funny 'cause I don't really feel like I hate Cat but man oh man... Just before the red wedding ( first time I read ASOS ) I was so sick of her. I was getting tired of how sad and fearful she was. I think GRRM did this on purpose to set everyone up for the surprise that follows

[C.T. Phipps]

I've noticed that the characterization in the HBO series is notably different in certain ways, accenting different parts of the character's personalities while de-emphasizing others. It's interesting how it's likely to impact the stories overall.

I'll say what I think is different:

1. Cersei: Is noticeably smarter than in her book incarnation. It's not that Book-Cersei is stupid; it's just that she's constantly emotional and denies Joffrey any discipline or sensible guidance. Cersei in the show is obviously disciplining Joffrey in a mild but effective manner as well as prudently steering him to become a Machiavellian ruler. In short, she's "Tywin with Tits."

It makes Joffrey much less likely to be a mad king (contrast him with Viserys) and Tyrion's conflict with her less nuanced.

2. Joffrey: Joffrey is a great deal smarter as well. His suggestion about the North is actually not as ******* insane as it might initially appear. For a guy whose supposed to be 14-15, the whole idea of a trained military force controlled b thought up by no less than y the Crown is actually a fairly revolutionary idea that was thought good advice by the Caesars.

(Though it was local generals they feared than lords)

Compare, again, to Viserys who is obviously completely off his rocker. Joffrey here just comes off as young instead of mad.

3. Littlefinger: Is noticeably more pleasant and subdued than his slightly lewd and demonic book counterpart. In the book, it was obvious that Littlefinger chose the brothel as an insult to the Starks as much as a sensible solution. Here, it's underplayed so it comes off as perfectly reasonable.

Likewise, Stark threatened him with a blade in the books. In the show, he's just looking like he's going to give Littlefinger a beating at most.

[Ser Yberon]

In general I'd have to say that HBO ang GRRM will make certain characters more sympathetic/empathic, as I for one have felt more sympathy for Cat with her just being 'made flesh' so to speak. In the books she did my head in for some reason.

I think that it was that she had too many POV chapters when there are more interesting people around her. Tyrion/Ned/Cersei/Jaime. I probably would've prefered a POV chapter or two that explained Robb's actions and storyline that wasnt viewed through Cat's opinion. Still don't like her that much for some reason but I do feel sorry for her more and actually have a fair amount of respect for her too.

Sansa I always quite liked, not because she is intereseting (as she blatently is not bright enough to be too interesting lol), but she is a dreamer, and I always feel protective of people who dream. That naivete, that innocence is being ripped from this world, especially in the western world when it comes to children. So when I read and see Sansa I just want her to keep that innocence and not lose it, but alas with what happens to her she does :(

Tyrion is even cooler than before. He is how an uncle should be to his siblings children.

I do think that Ned in the series is slightly warmer than how I imagined him in the books. But that is not all that bad. For some odd reason I saw Ned as a man who hid his feelings relatively well in the books, but Sean Bean gets him to wear them on his sleeve, surcoat and bloody shield in the series. Its ok as he seems closer to his children this way so.............

In my opinion Dany's portrayal is brilliantly acted, but you don't get the feeling of FEAR of her brother that you get in the books. I think they should have had a scene of Viserys going nuts or something, just to show the mental torture he put her through her whole life prior to her marriage. 'You do not want to wake the dragon!' :angry:

[Ser Yberon]

I am just watching the third episode now, and there is a scene when Cersei is dressing Joffrey's bite marks (lol) and he is trying to admit that he was cowardly and useless against the direwolf.

Then Cersei interupts and turns his musings into something else spinning his mind into thinking that it didn't happen that way. It made me think on how Joffrey has been brought up.

Yes he became an evil little shit, but if we look at his surroundings - his mother, Littlefinger, Varys, Pycelle, Jaime and Robert is it any wonder that this happened?

Children are sponges, blank slates. Whatever is around them and teaching them they act upon.

Who is Joffrey's biggest influence? Cersei, manipulative, conniving and devious. She made that boy into what he was. Just as he is able to start thinking for himself, he dies, completely unable to redeem himself. All his actions can be laid at her feet and to a lesser extent the evil bastards around him. They are his aswell dont get me wrong, but he is merely a product of his environment. I actually felt sorry for the kid in that scene. Not because of his bite marks, but because he showed that he realised what he was actually like, and then his mother manipulated his thinking as she has done his whole life into thinking otherwise. SHE is the evil bitch who made him into the monster that does so many bad things. SHE is the one who twisted his way of thinking. SHE is the one who can really be blamed for the War of the Five Kings. What a complete nutter. I actually feel sorry for Joffrey a little, as he gets brought up by that lunatic of a mother. To tell the truth if he had grown up any more I wouldnt be surprised if she decided to sleep with him too. What a mad mad cow Cersei really is. :wacko:

I can't actually believe i feel a bit sorry for Joffrey. In the books he was a right shit. Maybe GRRM wanted us to feel some sympathy for the boy, but didn't put his vulnerability across in the storyline hence making this scene in the series, or maybe HBO thought that the blame of the kids deeds should be put more at the mothers feet rather than the boy-king he becomes, I dont know. But either way its still true that Joffrey's morals, arrogance, and general twattishness can be put at his parents feet. As Robert was also never there in his life to counteract Cersei's manipulations as he wanted to go hunting and whoring all the time, not actually giving a rat's ass about how his heir to be was being brought up. Absolutely fucking useless parenting. Rant Over! :angry2:

[Myrish swan]

I can't actually believe i feel a bit sorry for Joffrey. In the books he was a right shit. Maybe GRRM wanted us to feel some sympathy for the boy, but didn't put his vulnerability across in the storyline hence making this scene in the series, or maybe HBO thought that the blame of the kids deeds should be put more at the mothers feet rather than the boy-king he becomes, I dont know.

In the books, I believe Joff is meant to be hated as well. If you look closely enough, GRRM portrays the villains in wildly different light. For a few of them, there is a deep, personal hatred. Then for others, though they are guilty of equal or greater offenses, he does not seem to personally loathe. For instance, in these books, I’d say that GRRM clearly loathes Cersei, and takes pains to make the reader feel the same way. He portrays her as evil, heartless, and refuses to give her a moment of “badass” or dignity.

The only character who is portrayed more negatively than Cersei is Joffrey.

However, now that I think about it, you have a point: perhaps Joffrey really is just another way to show Cersei as evil. After all, she created him, out of a twisted desire for revenge against her husband. Furthermore, she trained him, made him what he was.

Regarding the T.V. show, I agree with you that, thus far, they are showing a somewhat more “human” version of Joff. He’s still a monster, but one with enough insecurity and vulnerability to be believable as a human being. Also, the kid playing Joffrey is doing an awesome job.

It made me think on how Joffrey has been brought up.

Yes he became an evil little shit, but if we look at his surroundings - his mother, Littlefinger, Varys, Pycelle, Jaime and Robert is it any wonder that this happened?

Children are sponges, blank slates. Whatever is around them and teaching them they act upon.

Who is Joffrey's biggest influence? Cersei, manipulative, conniving and devious. She made that boy into what he was. Just as he is able to start thinking for himself, he dies, completely unable to redeem himself. All his actions can be laid at her feet and to a lesser extent the evil bastards around him.

I just highlighted the last part, because I found it interesting. (And something that I’ve already heard expressed by many on these message boards.) You’re claiming that Cersei is the one to blame for Joffrey’s evil nature, and that, in addition to all of her own evil deeds, those committed by her son should be thrown at her feet. However, what about Robert? You mention him in passing; however, you don’t seem to blame him half as much for Joffrey’s evil as you do Cersei. Many others concede with this, but it hardly seems fair to me. Honestly, Robert is every bit as much to blame as Cersei. Oh, I know, he wasn’t Joff’s real father. However, the point is that he believed he was—and neglected the hell out of his son anyway.

Neglect is often as damaging as outright abuse. Though Cersei taught her son horribly, she did do so to the best of her abilities. However, in contrast, Robert didn’t do a thing. Furthermore, he knew that Cersei was teaching Joff evil lessons, and never did a thing to step in or stop it. Hitting Joff so hard it knocked him out, and may have killed him? Hardly a good way to teach a boy with violent, sadistic tendencies to be a better person. Furthermore, it’s hinted in the book that many of Joff’s greatest atrocities are actually just ways to impress his “father.” Remember the cat incident? It sounds as though Joff was really trying to impress his dad with that one.

SHE is the evil bitch who made him into the monster that does so many bad things. SHE is the one who twisted his way of thinking. SHE is the one who can really be blamed for the War of the Five Kings.

I think you’re taking it a little too far. Also, I don’t see why Joffrey’s atrocities should not be placed equally at the feet of Robert and Jaime Lanister.

To tell the truth if he had grown up any more I wouldnt be surprised if she decided to sleep with him too.

Though the rest of your post is very well thought out and insightful, I’m going to have to strongly disagree with this one statement. There is honestly no evidence of this, ever. Just no.

If they were to ever even imply this in the show, I’d be incredibly put off. However, from what I’ve seen thus far, the writers of the show are far, far better than that.

[Myrish swan]

I don't know that Cersei is tremendously more sympathetic.

Well, if GRRM has anything to say about it, I’m guessing that Cersei will be highly unsympathetic… and that she also TOTALLY killed her newborn babe that she told Catelyn about. After all, Robert did lose her on their wedding night, when he called out the wrong name.

In the books, Cersei has been portrayed negatively from the beginning. (It is clear that she is meant to be the villain of the series.) However, judging by her actions alone in the first book —or even first three books—Cersei still remains something of a complex, grey character.

However, (perhaps because some people told him they actually liked Cersei) in the later books GRRM seems to delight in making Cersei commit greater and greater atrocities, showing her rubbing her hands together in glee the whole time. (This is pretty much what her arc in AFFC consists of. It’s as though, the whole time, reader keep getting the message—oh, did you think Cersei had a few good qualities—well, she doesn’t! Ha!) It’s to the point that she almost becomes a cartoonish comic book villain. So, based on how he views her and how he wants his fans to view her, I’d say that GRRM would show infanticide as something Cersei would be totally willing to do.

I only hope that, if this is the case, the show writers continue to make an effort to show Cersei with the subtlety and humanity they have been using thus far. Honestly, I got enough of the demonized Cersesi from AFFC.

The more I think about it, the more the infanticide thing seems highly probable. Because, despites claims about the fabulous moral ambiguity in the books, Cersei is more or less portrayed as PURE EVIL, everything that women should not be. She is the villain of ASOIAF, the one meant to be hated. However, in the T.V. adaption thus far, she does not seem all that much more evil than Ned or Robert. The direwolf thing was horrible, however, she had her reasons for that. Similarly, the Jaime thing is sick, but it hardly makes her evil, especially considering how the show thus far has highlighted Robert’s humiliating philandering and total disregard for his wife feelings. So, now that I think about it, perhaps the infanticide thing is needed to make Cersei more evil than Robert, and the clear villain of the series.

I actually think the infanticide would be a copout; a cheap way of making Cersei “pure evil." However, I do suspect that the point of Cersei’s story to Cat will be to prove that Cersei is a baby murderer in addition to everything else.

[tarantella]

Maybe it's just me, but Alliser Thorne seems more sympathetic in the series than in the book. So far, he's the hardass drill sergeant, making his recruits tough enough to survive as men of the Night's Watch. Even his speech to Jon and Sam in episode 4 could be seen as a wake up call sort of thing, to get them ready for their futures.

In the book, Thorne seemed more just plain asshole than anything else. Beyond his duties, he nurses an unprofessional grudge against Jon for a perceived insult. Maybe I'm remembering it wrong, but I think they removed that scene from the series, unless it just hasn't come up yet.

[L’Age d’or]

I believe in the books GRRM tried to draw similarities between Tywin and Tyrion on purpose even though they hate each other's guts. Tywin Lannister is very smart and a skilled tactician/politician while Cersei and Jaime lack the basics to be like him since they let emotions play a great part in their decision makings. On the other hand Tyrion ,who Tywin refuses to see him as his own blood, is very smart and tactful. In the adaptation we see that the writers are trying to represent Cersei and Joffery smarter and more in control of their emotions.

[MyDogIsNamedDanerys]

Maybe it's just me, but Alliser Thorne seems more sympathetic in the series than in the book. So far, he's the hardass drill sergeant, making his recruits tough enough to survive as men of the Night's Watch. Even his speech to Jon and Sam in episode 4 could be seen as a wake up call sort of thing, to get them ready for their futures.

:agree: It's wayyy more clear in the TV show that Thorne has an impossible situtation with Jon, and he's doing what he can to scare these green boys straight. Also, he correctly noted that Jon was an arrogant dick for beating everyone up with his castle-bred swordsmanship skills as Tyrion later corroborated.

Obviously Jaime is more sympathetic from our perspective... but talking to my friends that haven't read the books, he is still very much hated and seen as the #1 bad guy. So they seem to have struck a proper balance.

Catelyn definitely. People are a little annoyed that she lashed out at Jon but it didn't seem as bad as in the books. In every other scene she's in, she comes across as wise, couragous, and full of determination. Very sympathetic.

[tarantella]

Catelyn definitely. People are a little annoyed that she lashed out at Jon but it didn't seem as bad as in the books. In every other scene she's in, she comes across as wise, couragous, and full of determination. Very sympathetic.

Yeah, they left out her worst line to Jon from the book, I noticed. Still, I wonder how much more sympathetic they can really make Catelyn considering how much she does to damage her own family's cause down the line. Courageous and determined for sure, but her wisdom will definitely come into question.

[DurararaFTW]

This episode clenches it for me, they are definitely selling Cersei and Robert as more sympathetic. I liked Robert in the books, a lot but here he shows he actually does think stuff through

[Myrish swan]

Though not any more sympathetic than in the books, I liked the way Lysa Tully was portrayed far more here.

Now, I know a lot of people are going to disagree with this, but I found the way she was portrayed in the books as... vaguely distasteful, and somewhat misogynistic.

Though Lysa, in the books, is clearly portrayed as evil/ bad due to the things she does, I think there is also a whole lot of physical disgust in GRRM's descriptions of her. His descriptions of her sagging breasts, etc., are somewhat excessive, and drip with a scorn and disgust simply not shown for his ugly male characters (not even for Chett, the hideous, boil covered girlfriend murderer.) Furthermore, Lysa's ugliness/ chubbiness is clearly meant to show her physical, mental, and moral weakness and decay; something never done for her fat/ ugly male counterparts. And GRRM refuses to give her any allowance for the fact that she's suffered numerous misscarriages, which may do damage to a woman's looks (in contrast, Sam Tarley's fatness is never really held up as evidence of his personal moral weakness.) Lysa's physical flaws are described/ dwelled upon to the point that it becomes a little bit ridiculous, not to mention unbelievable. I mean, would Sansa, a 12 year old girl, seriously think that Lysa's boobs were saggy, that she was heavier and taller than LF, etc? That seems like a though a grown man (or grown woman) would have, not a 12 year old girl.

There also seems to be a desire to embarass Lysa and portray her as revolting-- like in that totally unnecessary rendering of her screams when doing it with LF on her wedding night.

At any rate, this Lysa seemed to me to be portrayed with less disgust and cruel mockery. She was not shown as being bad because she was ugly. She was simply shown as highly creepy. And Tyrion's issue with her was that she was a straight up looney.

[Myrish swan]

Part of what makes Cersei so awful is the narrative of her thoughts. Her reasoning and cold disregard for everyone. Since we have no narrator, I'm curious if this will allow her actions to stand on their own and be reasoned differently to the viewer. Perhaps they will be even easier to pass off as actions of a defensive mother, or a woman who's suffered a great deal of pain - rather than the actions of a total witch.

Yeah, I agree with this totally. In AFFC, Cersei is so cold, nasty, callous, and sociopathic that, imo, she goes beyond the point of believability. That book takes Cersei from a complex, fascinating character to a ridiculous cartoon villain. It also allows GRRM to rather hypocritically get away with demonizing Cersei for lesser offenses than those committed by his avatar, Tyrion. (Needless to say, GRRM manipulates the readers to still love Tyrion even as he does horrible things, and he succeeds wildly in doing this.)

However, when comparing Tyrion’s and Cersei by their actions alone in books 1-3, one could argue that they are moral equals. After all, the truly inexcusable things Cersei has done up until that point, while still evil, were to protect her children. (Ordering Robert’s bastard children killed, for instance.) Other things (though GRRM seems to blame Cersei for them totally) do not seem quite evil. For instance, she murdered Robert, but he did rape and abuse her. Honestly, calling out the wrong name on his wedding night was the least of Robert’s offenses. Furthermore, during their rivalry in ACoK and ASoS, Cersei and Tyrion seem to me to be moral equals—they give as good as they get. Sure, Cersei did act cruelly in whipping Alayaya, however, Tyrion admits to himself that he would have whipped Tommen, if it came down to it. Furthermore, Tyrion’s torture of Pycelle for siding with Cersei was cruel and unnecessary.

Some people have said that GRRM’s portrayal of Cersei in AFFC was influenced by the fact that some fans had told him that they truly liked/ sympathized with Cersei. IMO, in AFFC he clearly illustrates why NO ONE should ever sympathize with Cersei. He portrays her as horrible and without sympathetic or positive qualities, even when such a portrayal clashes with what he has shown for her thus far.