Unsatisfying nature of ASOIAF vengeance

[MyDogIsNamedDanerys]

Oh, how I wish he would. I forced myself through the Ironborn POVs on my last re-read of AFFC, and I tried to find bits to enjoy, but they're just so damn nasty.

Yeah Ironborn should have been a prologue/epilogue as originally intended. Just have the Kingsmoot from Asha's perspective or something - Euron could even send Vic to Dany in that chapter.

And while I love Brienne and her perspective on life in the Seven Kingdoms, I'll be the first to admit that her chapters are a snoozefest; I'd trade her POV for a return to cohesion in a heartbeat.

Yeah I love Brienne, she's an awesome person, and I loved seeing her completely badass out on those Brave Companions... but the story.. just... dragged... ugh! And there was no purpose to it other than vengeance.

I feel the same way about Arianne, too. She's kind of a cool character, but she's completely irrelavent to the purpose of the Dorne arc - which is to reveal that Dorne intends to ally with Dany. We could have gotten all of this from Quentyn once he reaches Dany instead.

[Faint]

I think the following POVs are going to be gone soon: Brienne of Tarth, Davos Seaworth, Victarion Greyjoy, and Areo Hotah.

I think Asha/Theon/Aeron will become one POV or become a rotating POV between them.

And Tyrion/Daenerys will probably become a rotating POV as well.

I'm even starting to theorize that Jon/Arya and/or Jaime/Cersei might become rotating POVs also, but I'm not as sure about them.

[inkasrain]

I feel the same way about Arianne, too. She's kind of a cool character, but she's completely irrelavent to the purpose of the Dorne arc - which is to reveal that Dorne intends to ally with Dany. We could have gotten all of this from Quentyn once he reaches Dany instead.

Arianne irritates me because, although she is obviously much more sane, I think she has a bit of Cersei-syndrom. She considers herself a major player in the Game without realizing that she is missing significant chunks of information, and other people (of varying degrees of innocence) suffer for her decisions. Doran was much more complex and interesting to me, and I wouldn't miss Arianne's perspective if it's omitted from future books.

[iamthedave]

I think the following POVs are going to be gone soon: Brienne of Tarth, Davos Seaworth, Victarion Greyjoy, and Areo Hotah.

I think Asha/Theon/Aeron will become one POV or become a rotating POV between them.

And Tyrion/Daenerys will probably become a rotating POV as well.

I'm even starting to theorize that Jon/Arya and/or Jaime/Cersei might become rotating POVs also, but I'm not as sure about them.

By 'rotating POV' do you mean that the events in their section of the world will unfold through alternating POV chapters? Like Tyrion sees something, then we switch to Dany and she sees something else later on?

If so, yeah I can see that.

Jon and Arya, Jaime and Cersei won't be rotaters though. I just can't see it. Davos, Areo and Victarion are almost for sure goners (via death). Brienne, if she's not gone already, I think will be sticking around for some time.

[Kittyhat]

Personally, I just want it to be a little bit less depressing. I do like to have some fun in my reading, not to turn every page expecting yet another character I like to be abused and have their dreams brutally destroyed while their enemies laugh at them and prosper.

Well, as to this, I kind of have a theory that ... of course ... may or may not be even remotely correct. I'm thinking that Martin may in fact be writing what is in many ways a "traditional" fantasy epic, but rather than having all of the ugliness (prior to the arrival of the hero/ine(s) to set things more or less right) mentioned briefly off-camera, he's having us experience it firsthand.

So ... if that's correct, then certain characters may actually be more the more traditional heroes they appear to be (Daenerys and Jon come immediately to mind ... possibly Bran, possibly also Arya if she doesn't go down the dark path she seems to be flirting with instead), and the second half of the series may see them slowly turning back the forces of darkness, with that being all the more satisfying after we've experienced viscerally just how bad it really got.

Orrr ... maybe he's just writing a grimdark series of grimdark grimdarkness. "In the grim, dark future of the really near future, there is only a need for more skulls!" :rolleyes:

I really hope that's not it, though.

[Maestress Sand]

"In the grim, dark future of the really near future, there is only a need for more skulls!"

Haha, love it! :D

[Kittyhat]

Haha, love it! :D

I cannot claim credit, alas:

http://www.grimdark.com/

[iamthedave]

In the grim future of Hello Kitty, there is only war.

http://onastick.net/sitz/images/

[Faint]

By 'rotating POV' do you mean that the events in their section of the world will unfold through alternating POV chapters? Like Tyrion sees something, then we switch to Dany and she sees something else later on?

If so, yeah I can see that.

Jon and Arya, Jaime and Cersei won't be rotaters though. I just can't see it. Davos, Areo and Victarion are almost for sure goners (via death). Brienne, if she's not gone already, I think will be sticking around for some time.

Yeah, basically, they'll be the same story at that point. Tyrion and Daenerys are too significant to eliminate as POVs obviously, but I think they'll alternate when the book tells their mutual story.

As for the Greyjoys, I think eventually they'll become one POV. Either Asha or Theon.

Now, about the other POVs, here's the thing -- even if you eliminate Brienne of Tarth, Davos Seaworth, Victarion Greyjoy, and Areo Hotah, we are still left with this: Bran (1), Daenerys (2), Jon (3), Arya (4), Sansa (5), Theon (6), Sam (7), Jaime (8), Cersei (9), Arianne (10), Aeron (11), Asha (12), New POV (13), New POV (14)

Keep in mind, ASoS, the longest book in the series, had 10 POVs. With that in mind, I think something like 4-5 of the above POVs have to be cut out before TWoW. Maybe even more. At some point the story has to start coming together.

[C.T. Phipps]

If I may step in here and bring the story back to topic.

Vengeance is a dish best served cold

-A Klingon and Shakespearian proverb best applied to the Starks.

In the case of Tywin Lannister, it was a case of "get in line" for who exactly had the most right to kill him. Tyrion Lannister had suffered a lifetime of abuse from the man and was forced to participate in the gang-rape of his wife (an action which, honestly, highlights that Tyrion is a severely ****** up character who is carrying around boatloads of trauma). If I had to say who deserved to kill Tywin Lannister more: Un-Cat, the Ghost of Rob Stark, or Tyrion then I'm going to have to say that Tyrion has dibs over everyone else.

Really, barring the three take turns stringing him up like a pinata - I'm not sure how all three of them could satisfy their vengeance simultaneously.

In the case of Prince Joffery the Terrible, Sansa is actually the one who got a poetic justice death for him. Just as she accidentally lead to the death of her father, she led to Joffery's death in the same way. By whispering a little into the ear of the Tyrell's, they were able to arrange for the man's murder. That was a particularly poetic piece of justice because it not only killed Joffery but it also emotionally destroyed Cersei Lannister.

Cersei is really hoist by her own petard as the Sept (the people whose pope she's murdered), the Tyrells (who she tried to murder the daughter of), Sansa (do we need to even say?), Tyrion, and others have all played a part in bringing her down. No, I don't think she's finished yet but we're witness to a TRULY *EPIC* case of Schadenfreude in the making.

Which brings us to Jaime...

I highlight the viewpoint that Jaime is a nice case of "Darth Vader murdered children." I don't agree with George Lucas in that particular scene but I understand why he did it. Darth Vader isn't a misunderstood monster - he was an evil ****** who wiped out the Jedi Order and installed a pseudo-Nazi-esque organization. George wants it highlighted Vader isn't just a cuddly little guy behind an Iron Mask - he was an evil monster.

That's why it's REDEMPTION.

In the case of Jaime Lannister, he's not remotely redeemed but he's been cut from the toxic influences in his life. Cersei Lannister, his father, and more are all people who helped allow him become one of the most evil men in the kingdom. The fact he's trying to be a member of the Kingsguard NOW after he's been involved in attempted murder of children, regicide, incest (mitigated BIZARRELY by the fact he genuinely seems to have loved his sister), and Seven knows what else - is actually bizarrely comical. Jaime will never be a Kingsguard and his crimes ARE unforgivable.

However, he's suffering now for the realization that all of the horrible things people have said about him are TRUE. It wasn't the fact he killed Aerys, it was EVERYTHING HE DID AFTERWARD that made him a villain.

In the case of Jaime, I imagine either he'll end up dying (possibly doing SOMETHING decent) or he'll end up taking the Black.

In a way, I think the latter would be a far more satisfying end. Jaime would end up in the "Wall of Rapists and Murderers" and in that would possibly EARN his atonement without fanfare or praise.

[Maestress Sand]

In the case of Jaime, I imagine either he'll end up dying (possibly doing SOMETHING decent) or he'll end up taking the Black.

In a way, I think the latter would be a far more satisfying end. Jaime would end up in the "Wall of Rapists and Murderers" and in that would possibly EARN his atonement without fanfare or praise.

Actually, I find that an extremely satisfying ending for him. Epilogue: Jaime Lannister became Lord Commander of the Night's Watch.

Assuming there still is a Night's Watch at the end of the series (I have no idea where GRRM is going with that one).

[iamthedave]

Keep in mind, ASoS, the longest book in the series, had 10 POVs. With that in mind, I think something like 4-5 of the above POVs have to be cut out before TWoW. Maybe even more. At some point the story has to start coming together.

I feel the need to be slightly sarcastic and point out that people love to claim GRRM constantly bucks trends and surprises us all :D

You wait. He'll go to his grave and in his will list the other fourteen books he hadn't mentioned. We'll never see that coming.

[Faint]

I feel the need to be slightly sarcastic and point out that people love to claim GRRM constantly bucks trends and surprises us all :D

You wait. He'll go to his grave and in his will list the other fourteen books he hadn't mentioned. We'll never see that coming.

Well, for the slightly more optimistic, and those who take him on his word, half the POVs that exist right now have to be cut out.

That's why I don't like all these convoluted theories that extend out the stories of secondary characters like Brienne and maybe even Davos. I just think the the series can't accommodate them anymore -- especially if there are only two books left after ADwD.

[Parev]

I read these books last month, one after the other, over a period of a couple of weeks. So I had no time to let anything settle or to ponder how I felt about things. Furthermore I was completely unspoiled about what kind of books these were.

The death of Lady, Ned's death, and Red Wedding were complete sucker-punches. While I expected treachery from the Freys, I didn't expect Cat and Robb to be so spectacularly dumb as to be caught by it.

So for vengeance, I would be wishing for the Starks to utterly crush Casterly Rock and to geld Jamie and launch Tyrion in a trebuchet into the Trident. Having finished the books, I know that this won't happen. The most I would hope for is to have the Starks returned to Winterfell in some manner, Tyrion taking the black, and Jamie dying as vile and ignoble a death as possible, probably for something he didn't do. (Although there are several things he does deserve to die for, it will probably be for something else.)

[dan_b]

Myrish Swan and Iamthedave summed up my feelings so well on the subject of revenge and the direction the series has taken.

For me, it was Tyrion's murder of Shae and his father. It was a real blow to me as the image of Tyrion I had built up in my head because of his treatment of Jon in book 1 and the citizens of King's Landing in ACOK had led me to believe he was the sort of person who despite his flaws was generally trying to do the right thing and wasn't about to let the fact others treated him unfairly stop him from trying to be just himself.

AFFC is one of those books I appreciate more than enjoy, and on my first read, I checked out emotionally halfway through--what's the point of caring about these people? Nothing they do is going to work. Even the Edmure/Jaime confrontation felt unsatisfying no matter whose side you were on. Yes, Jaime achieved a bloodless victory, but it was by staring down Edmure Tully, who hasn't exactly been presented as mighty of will. And even then, it was an incomplete victory because the Blackfish escaped. Fans of the Tullys got to see Rivverun fall; fans of Jaime got to see a pseudo-victory over Edmure Tully.

The unending grim-ness is part of it, but I think another big piece for me is the drop from AGOT on in human-to-human connection between the characters. By AFFC, everybody seems to relate to everyone else either in relation to their external goals or their internal psychological issues. There seems to be a dramatic difference between the way people relate to one another. The Stark, Baratheon, Tully, and even what we see of the Lannister family dynamics in GOT feel to me substantially more--dymamic? Family-like? Bonded?--than the Martells in AFFC...or come to think of it, even the STARKS in AFFC. Sansa and Arya never seem to pay much thought to one another in AFFC even though they practically defined each other in AGOT.

When Syrio defends Arya in GOT, it feels to me like Syrio does it at least partly because he LIKES Arya.

When Brienne defends Pod, It feels more to me like it's because he's a child or because it's her duty or because he reminds her of something in herself than any genuine affection for Pod as a human being.

I guess when I don't see connections between the characters in the story it starts to lose the feeling of being a story and more "Hey, let's go see what Victarion did today."

So to pull it back to the revenge thing, I found I've become less and less concerned with it as the series goes on. Partly because of what GRRM seems to be pointing out about the cycle of violence, but also because the series seems to have drifted closer to answering the questions "What happens?" and further away from answering the question "Why should we care?"

[C.T. Phipps]

In the case of 'A Feast for Crows' I think George sadly ended for several years on what was probably meant to be the single lowest point in the story.

[Maestress Sand]

For me, it was Tyrion's murder of Shae and his father. It was a real blow to me as the image of Tyrion I had built up in my head because of his treatment of Jon in book 1 and the citizens of King's Landing in ACOK had led me to believe he was the sort of person who despite his flaws was generally trying to do the right thing and wasn't about to let the fact others treated him unfairly stop him from trying to be just himself.

While I understand your dismay at the sinking of Tyrion's character, in GRRM's world, there wasn't a whole lot of room for much else. He'd been hanging on to his attempt to be a decent person despite his family for his entire life, only to be blamed to be systematically shunned, tormented, and devalued. He was blamed for his mother's death, accused constantly of being a bastard, had Cersei twist his baby genitals until he cried (who knows how long that lasted) ...(fast forward)... convinced of the betrayal of and forced to participate in the torture of the only woman who'd ever loved him, never had a marriage arranged to anyone but constantly ridiculed for sleeping with whores ... finally given something useful he can do only to be faced with the petty distrust and machinations of his power-hungry but politically-dumb sister, manned up and led a battle charge without training and with no other options only to be maimed, had all his credit and justly-earned power taken away after he saved King's Landing, forced to marry a barely-pubescent girl with no cause to ever like him, unjustly put on trial for the murder of his atrocious nephew and then systematically betrayed by everyone he ever knew in court, sentenced to death by his sister, told that the awful gang rape of his "whore" wife was actually the rape of an innocent girl who really did love him (and he participated in it. and gave her a gold coin for it) ... And then he finds Shae double-betrayed him (trial + father-screwing) and that his horribly abusive sociopathic father is a hypocritical whore-mongerer who doesn't even have the sense to not call poor Tysha a whore again...

... At what point in his multiple levels of abuse from nearly everyone in his *super-close* family for his entire life was he not supposed to snap?

I'm not saying what he did was good. At all. Morally or for his own future psychological well-being. But seriously, it was coming a mile away. He was a decent guy. But he was also seriously f*cked-up. And it all came crashing down in one bloody night. It's gonna cast a huge shadow on his psyche for a long time. I don't know if he'll be able to be the trying-to-be-decent Tyrion we knew and liked. It'll at least be a while.

[iamthedave]

While I understand your dismay at the sinking of Tyrion's character, in GRRM's world, there wasn't a whole lot of room for much else. He'd been hanging on to his attempt to be a decent person despite his family for his entire life, only to be blamed to be systematically shunned, tormented, and devalued. He was blamed for his mother's death, accused constantly of being a bastard, had Cersei twist his baby genitals until he cried (who knows how long that lasted) ...(fast forward)... convinced of the betrayal of and forced to participate in the torture of the only woman who'd ever loved him, never had a marriage arranged to anyone but constantly ridiculed for sleeping with whores ... finally given something useful he can do only to be faced with the petty distrust and machinations of his power-hungry but politically-dumb sister, manned up and led a battle charge without training and with no other options only to be maimed, had all his credit and justly-earned power taken away after he saved King's Landing, forced to marry a barely-pubescent girl with no cause to ever like him, unjustly put on trial for the murder of his atrocious nephew and then systematically betrayed by everyone he ever knew in court, sentenced to death by his sister, told that the awful gang rape of his "whore" wife was actually the rape of an innocent girl who really did love him (and he participated in it. and gave her a gold coin for it) ... And then he finds Shae double-betrayed him (trial + father-screwing) and that his horribly abusive sociopathic father is a hypocritical whore-mongerer who doesn't even have the sense to not call poor Tysha a whore again...

You, my lady, are officially epic.

I think this should be quoted for all time when people want to defend Tyrion. Can't think of any character who gets crapped on so often from such a height.

[mismatched eyes]

While I understand your dismay at the sinking of Tyrion's character, in GRRM's world, there wasn't a whole lot of room for much else. He'd been hanging on to his attempt to be a decent person despite his family for his entire life, only to be blamed to be systematically shunned, tormented, and devalued. He was blamed for his mother's death, accused constantly of being a bastard, had Cersei twist his baby genitals until he cried (who knows how long that lasted) ...(fast forward)... convinced of the betrayal of and forced to participate in the torture of the only woman who'd ever loved him, never had a marriage arranged to anyone but constantly ridiculed for sleeping with whores ... finally given something useful he can do only to be faced with the petty distrust and machinations of his power-hungry but politically-dumb sister, manned up and led a battle charge without training and with no other options only to be maimed, had all his credit and justly-earned power taken away after he saved King's Landing, forced to marry a barely-pubescent girl with no cause to ever like him, unjustly put on trial for the murder of his atrocious nephew and then systematically betrayed by everyone he ever knew in court, sentenced to death by his sister, told that the awful gang rape of his "whore" wife was actually the rape of an innocent girl who really did love him (and he participated in it. and gave her a gold coin for it) ... And then he finds Shae double-betrayed him (trial + father-screwing) and that his horribly abusive sociopathic father is a hypocritical whore-mongerer who doesn't even have the sense to not call poor Tysha a whore again...

... At what point in his multiple levels of abuse from nearly everyone in his *super-close* family for his entire life was he not supposed to snap?

You know, if a limited version of this story were written as a novel, and was Martin's only foray into the world of Westeros, everyone would still love it so much they'd make an HBO series out of it. That this is only a tenth of the epic story that is ASOIAF is pretty awesometastic.

I also think it'd make a great Greek tragedy.