[BOOK SPOILERS] Sex/Romance: What Fans Wanna See in Future Seasons [MEGA SPOILERS

[Lady Blackfish]

I think that "Jorah is nothing more than an insecure bag of slop" is as much a caricature as "Jorah is Lancelot" or "Dany is a heartless harpy" would be.

Sure, but I don't want him simplified into only that, I just don't want this bowdlerized. If we're going to make relationship vs romance distinction here, then I think their relationship as characters is very interesting, but I don't want it romanticized. I would also hate it if, for example, the relationship between Petyr and Cateyln or Petyr and Sansa was robbed of its creepy undertones.

I can't really blame Dany as much as Jorah, personally, she's a young girl for one and she never really asked for any romantic loyalty. It seems hard for girls like Sansa or Dany to be treated as anything but sexual/romantic interests (okay, more true in Sansa's case). She should have been more direct, but you know, she was 15. He was the much older adult, who probably shouldn'tve really been kissing her without her agreement in the first place.

I'm not opposed to making Jorah's emotions visible, I mean, it's there in the books so that doesn't strike me as much of a change at all. I just don't people to forget that this relationship is not romantic.

Re. "shipping", I really don't care what people call things as long as we communicate clearly about what we all want from HBO's product. FWIW, which may not be much.

[mr. peasant]

I personally don't like the idea of using the term "shipping" for any discussion of couples in a novel. It developed within a particular culture of fandom and it expresses itself in particular ways. But sure, I'll happily admit that my reluctance to see such a term applied to anything I might engage in relating to any series of books is that I wouldn't want to be associated with some of the ways that "shipping" expresses itself.

Yes, 'shippers' are characterised as fanfic-writing, hyperactive, teen girls who squee over any hint of their preferred couple, which is generally not one that is any way construed to be near canon (I'm still trying to wrap my head around Draco/Hermione and Harry/Voldemort). However, that stereotype holds no more truth than the popular image of a 'gamer' being a fat, parent's-basement-dwelling thirty-year-old male. Call it what you want but speculating and/or debating over relationships between individual characters is by definition 'shipping' of one form or another.

But coming back to the topic of the need of devoting more time to the subject, I don't think there's a discreet need to. Shippers will see what shippers want to see. As seen in franchises such as Harry Potter and Avatar: The Last Airbender, the show doesn't have to make a concerted effort of showing it as long as they tease it enough. Just having the relevant characters interact with one another is often enough; with the fandom drawing their own interpretations over the subtext of it. Scratch that, as can be seen by the Jon/Dany shippers (which have existed long before the show came about), just giving them something in common is often enough, without the characters having to even meet face-to-face. In short, just giving the shippers something to work with (for their relationship of choice), and some suitable eye candy (yes, Sandor with his horrible scar counts!), and that is normally enough to satisfy them (because there are far too many permutations to give sufficient time to all).

[Brienne the Beauty]

Personally, my preference is for a quality television programme over faithfulness. I have no problem at all with changes or added scenes as long as they are within the spirit of the thing (no aeroplanes, for instance), and enhance the storyline. Television and literature are very different media.

I quite agree. In some ways, the TV show improved the story by aging the children so that they act more realistically for their ages, and removing oddments like Tyrions quick-forgotten athletic powers. If I wanted utter faithfulness I'd read the book. I'll get as annoyed as everyone if they go out of bounds of the story and kill off Sam in episode 1 of next season, but limited changes within the spirit of the story are fine.

[Wik]

I find the idea utterly appalling that the producers should cater to any fanbase other than those who want to see as faithful an adaption as possible. Yes, I can see playing up certain existing storylines more -- they already have with Renly & Loras -- but it should all be balanced. I don't want more romance for the girls (and boys) who like that or more violence for the boys (and girls) who like that. I want as faithful an adaption as possible, both in terms of what actually happens and the actual feel of the show. George does a great job of balancing many different themes and aspects, in part through the multiple PoVs, and I want to see the show do the same.

I love fantasy with romantic storylines, but its just one of the aspects of fantasy I love. I'd hate to see the show gravitate in any particular direction. As far as this forum goes, it is of course open to both male and female fans. Perhaps we could stand a few more threads about who's hotter as opposed to who's the better swordsman, but an excess of either is equally annoying. But leave anything pink and sparkly elsewhere. Not to mention any talk of fan fiction.

THIS!

BTW, WTF is "shipping"? Heard this so many times and I guess I am just ignorant of the slang. I'm not much of a TV person, especially with Thrones done. Someone care to explain?!

Yes some small changes can be made for on screen efficiency but what is the point of making GoT if it ends up being different enough that we could have called it "War of the Roses" and gotten away with it?

I don't want to come off as a prick, quite the opposite I am usually very willing to let people think however they please. But these fangirls or any fanboys who don't know much about the series, are just getting into it because of the show, shouldn't get catered to anymore than the general audience who are fans of the series. They apparently already like it. If they didn't or the show/series was awful, they wouldn't be gushing over the next time they see Robb's nipple. SO, they have already been pulled in. I mean, what are they gonna do after the Red Wedding, if the TV series goes that far? Or do we cut that scene out because every 14-16 year old girl will sob in her pillow because her next fanfic, which isn't supposed to be happening according to GRRM anyhow, would have to be based on necrophilia...

[MyDogIsNamedDanerys]

Sure, but I don't want him simplified into only that, I just don't want this bowdlerized. If we're going to make relationship vs romance distinction here, then I think their relationship as characters is very interesting, but I don't want it romanticized. I would also hate it if, for example, the relationship between Petyr and Cateyln or Petyr and Sansa was robbed of its creepy undertones.

I can't really blame Dany as much as Jorah, personally, she's a young girl for one and she never really asked for any romantic loyalty. It seems hard for girls like Sansa or Dany to be treated as anything but sexual/romantic interests (okay, more true in Sansa's case). She should have been more direct, but you know, she was 15. He was the much older adult, who probably shouldn'tve really been kissing her without her agreement in the first place.

I'm not opposed to making Jorah's emotions visible, I mean, it's there in the books so that doesn't strike me as much of a change at all. I just don't people to forget that this relationship is not romantic.

I don't have any particular issue with what you're saying, other than the last bit.

I'm thinking you have a somewhat narrower definition of what is romantic than I'm thinking. Can a relationship only be a romance if it is perfectly healthy and both people are into it the entire time? I don't think so. Unrequited love can definitely be romantic and at the same time it can also be inappropriate or even creepy. I think this tension complicates the otherwise bland tropes of "romance" and increases interest.

In this particular case, prior to aSoS, Jorah he seems to accept the whole love from afar thing. And even though we know that Dany figures out what's going on, their friendship remains cordial and even affectionate during this time. Dany quite carefully does nothing to encourage or discourage Jorah during aCoK. And Jorah doesn't really push much (though now that she's watching for it, Dany catches him watching her a few times - also his discouraging her from marrying Xaro or instantly trusting Arstan/Belwas was likely in part motivated by jealousy but it was also good advice).

...until aSoS, when he kisses her and declares love etc, etc... And here's where I think the crux of the matter lies. What if, in fact, Dany did want him back? He's got practically no evidence one way or the other (we as readers do). I just can't fault him for deciding to go for it. And then you have all the aftermath as previously discussed which basically just looks like a messy breakup between two very stubborn people to me.

Anyway, I'm not sure how this relationship - as portrayed in the books - is not a romance?

[mr. peasant]

BTW, WTF is "shipping"? Heard this so many times and I guess I am just ignorant of the slang. I'm not much of a TV person, especially with Thrones done. Someone care to explain?!

Shipping is the practice, by members of a fandom, to express support of a pairing between two (or more) characters (often romantically), that is either canon or outside canon. This support can be either humourous/tongue-in-cheek or serious. Casual shipping is usually a way of fans to express their liking of or appreciation for a certain character or aspects of said character that are brought out when with the other member of the pairing. Militant shipping, on the other hand, is an intense devotion to the pairing of choice over other aspects of the story (which may or may not include the plot itself); which can lead to these fans becoming defensive or even confrontational when their view is challenged.

I don't want to come off as a prick, quite the opposite I am usually very willing to let people think however they please. But these fangirls or any fanboys who don't know much about the series, are just getting into it because of the show, shouldn't get catered to anymore than the general audience who are fans of the series. They apparently already like it. If they didn't or the show/series was awful, they wouldn't be gushing over the next time they see Robb's nipple. SO, they have already been pulled in. I mean, what are they gonna do after the Red Wedding, if the TV series goes that far? Or do we cut that scene out because every 14-16 year old girl will sob in her pillow because her next fanfic, which isn't supposed to be happening according to GRRM anyhow, would have to be based on necrophilia...

I think you're confusing 'shipping' with 'fan service', which is a catch-all term for any additional elements thrown in by the creators for the main purpose of 'rewarding' the fans. As fan wants are varied and the audience is comprised of an assortment of groups with different wants; and so fan service range from nudity/near-nudity of popular characters to in-jokes and shout-outs that only long-time fans might pick up, as well as references to an actor or director's past work. Catering to one major subset at the expense of other subsets tend to lead to irritation by those 'ignored' groups.

[TMWNN]

I find the idea utterly appalling that the producers should cater to any fanbase other than those who want to see as faithful an adaption as possible.

and

I don't want to come off as a prick, quite the opposite I am usually very willing to let people think however they please. But these fangirls or any fanboys who don't know much about the series, are just getting into it because of the show, shouldn't get catered to anymore than the general audience who are fans of the series.

[...]

I mean, what are they gonna do after the Red Wedding, if the TV series goes that far?

I was afraid someone would misinterpret me. I, too, love the books, and love how faithful the show has been to both the letter and the spirit of Martin's writing. If the show ever were to make significant changes to the plot, I'd likely stop loving it no matter how well made and well acted. I signed on to watch an adaptation of A Song of Ice and Fire, not Knights, Wizards, and the Undead. I don't want to see sparkling text or fanfiction at Westeros.org.

What the original poster and I are talking about are ways in which the show can continue and broaden its appeal to fans, including new ones, while remaining true to the books. Robb/Jeyne is a good example. We already know that Richard Madden will appear more often in season 2 than a strictly faithful adaptation of A Clash of Kings would justify. His marriage to Jeyne, the most fateful moment of his life, occurs entirely off screen in the book. It is logical that the writers will, as they did many times in season 1, depict his relationship with Jeyne in "deleted DVD scenes" form; new to us because of the limitations of the books' POV format, but consistent with Martin's canon. And if, by showing Robb's relationshp with Jeyne develop, millions of new squealing young women fans decide that "Robb/Jeyne" is their new One True Passion, well, what's wrong with that?

R+L=J is a good example of the multi-faceted nature of ASoIaF.

[...]

I am very unhappy with its absence from the show.

On the contrary, I believe R + L = J has been given as much attention on the show as practical. Martin has thousands of pages to hide clues. On the show, in the first two episodes we were told that

1. Jon Snow is said to be Ned Stark's bastard, BUT
2. neither he nor anyone else knows for sure who Jon's mother is. Furthermore ...
3. Ned refuses to discuss the Jon's parentage even with his best friend, Robert ...
4. who hates Targaryens and wants to kill them all, because ...
5. His lost love, Ned's sister Lyanna, died after a Targaryen kidnapped her.

To the modern, Lost-trained television audience it is much, much easier to deduce that Lyanna is Jon's mother from the first two episodes than from A Game of Thrones' 1000 pages of dense text. Some might assume that the father is Robert; others, the Targaryen kidnapper (whose name the HBO viewer guide provides), but many book readers have and do believe both theories, too. Would I have loved "Promise me, Ned" to have been heard somewhere in the first season? Sure. Would a full-fledged depiction of the Tower of Joy, as cool as it would have been, completely given away R + L = J? Absolutely.

I personally don't like the idea of using the term "shipping" for any discussion of couples in a novel. It developed within a particular culture of fandom and it expresses itself in particular ways. But sure, I'll happily admit that my reluctance to see such a term applied to anything I might engage in relating to any series of books is that I wouldn't want to be associated with some of the ways that "shipping" expresses itself.

While some elements of 'shipping are at best laughable and at worst positively sinister due to the ridiculous emotional energy some proponents exert into promoting their particular pairings, in this case we always have the ultimate trump card, something Buffy and Dawson's Creek and The OC writers didn't and often really, really wished they did: "The book said so."

In short, just giving the shippers something to work with (for their relationship of choice), and some suitable eye candy (yes, Sandor with his horrible scar counts!), and that is normally enough to satisfy them (because there are far too many permutations to give sufficient time to all).

Agreed.

[Sixshells]

Yes, 'shippers' are characterised as fanfic-writing, hyperactive, teen girls who squee over any hint of their preferred couple, which is generally not one that is any way construed to be near canon (I'm still trying to wrap my head around Draco/Hermione and Harry/Voldemort). However, that stereotype holds no more truth than the popular image of a 'gamer' being a fat, parent's-basement-dwelling thirty-year-old male.

Couldn't agree more. The idea that shipping, or an emotional, GIF/glittery, heavily actor-based approach to fandom is "female" and an argumentative, overanalytical one is "male" is as stereotypical.

It's completely true that shippers will see what they want to see, no need for the creators of the show to go specifically out of their way to give them little hopes.

I don't think the relation (even its non-romantic bits) between Sandor and Sansa needs to be enhanced. It's already too obvious at that point and needs to be made creepier, same as Sansa/Petyr. As it's been said : television is not the same medium as books and audiences have been trained to see those clues pretty quickly. Just remember how they ticked off at the hooded Jaqen in ep 10.

As for a minor relationship like Arya/Gendry, there is that one scene in the books when they are with the BWB that shows a genuine albeit fleeting tension. Shouldn't go any further than that.

[Brienne the Beauty]

There seems to be a lot of mistrust of "squealing young women" around here.

1) Shippers can be crazy but most often are just women who like writing fanfic on a particular topic, or sometimes just having a joke with their friends.

2) Shippers usually do not expect the show to change to accommodate their One True Pairing.

3) Some of the more overheated fans you are thinking of are in YA fandoms such as Harry Potter. In other words they are very young. These girls are unlikely to watch GOT - for a start, their parents won't let them. Secondly, if you like magical unicorns or sparkly vampires, your reaction to a gritty realistic drama full of gore, mud and death is likely to be "ugh, gross grownup stuff."

4) Just because women do something doesn't mean it is bad. In defense of overwrought fanfic, I'd like to bring your attention to the reams of porno fanart that men produce. Female fandom is a different way of looking at things from male fandom - not necessarily a worse way.

I'm not a part of fangirl culture but I am a big fan of including women (such as myself) in sci-fi/fantasy fandoms. And to do that you need to understand that the female reaction to works is not always going to be exactly the same as the male.

The only way the show is likely to change to accommodate female fans is more male shirtlessness. Is that so hard to bear? I sincerely doubt they will change the plot, since they have been so incredibly faithful to the source material so far.

[Lady of payne]

Renly and Loras. Not like season one. It must their last praying and it must be hot.

[kate]

Wow.

[Ser_Pounce_from_twitter]

My disagreement with the OP would be on what I personally want HBO to accomplish with this series. Obviously HBO wants to make money and probably would do well to follow your advice, assuming as you postulate it would bring in a bigger female audience. However I'm more interested in the singular artistic vision that Martin created. This vision has attracted female readers because of it's positive qualities (some of which might relate to romance), but I wouldn't want to see it compromised to add to this element. A lot of Song of Ice and Fire isn't romantic and is even anti romantic (and I don't mean this purely in the love sense but in the sense that Sansa experiences of having her perspective of the world deromanticized).

I don't think there's a problem with people taking issue with the series or that wanting to change it, but this isn't my personal preference. I think if anything changes should be made to make it adaptable to TV (one such example are the changes in Cersie's character that makes her complexity more obvious to a televised audience).

[Soapbubbles]

I started reading ASOIAF a couple years ago because the internet kept raving about it. The politics are what hooked me. The characters and their relationships are what make me care about the politics and generally what's happening. For a few series I like, the fandom can be a sort of make-or-break for how deeply I get involved. My favorite fandoms, and series for the most part, are the ones where I can hang out with the same people and be able to make crack jokes about whatever the series and maybe later get into a 'serious' discussion about character motivation and political ramifications and all that jazz. It keeps me enthused and around longer. It doesn't matter if it's IRL with other ladies or on the internet with strangers.

My point is, please don't lump all fangirls into one giant pile, just because some of us go about shipping doesn't exclude us from having measured debates. And even if some fangirls don't like debates, at least they like the series, which means more money for GRRM and HBO, which means more for other fans, right? (I think that sentence ran on right there.) :P

And maybe all of these fresh-faced fans from the show will bring a unique perspective to the series, with new ideas and theories. Any fandom becomes boring when it stagnates and everyone is on the same page, throwing around the same old arguments with different words. *Thinks wistfully about Loghain*

On-topic!

I feel the show more clearly conveys the relationships, even the ones that aren't considered romantic. Sometimes it simply helps to see what's happening than to just imagine it. Doesn't hurt when they're attractive either. Seeing Cat and Ned together, with their children, made everything seem far more real and touching. When Cat and Ned parted, it was so bittersweet, especially since I'd read the books. Dany and Drogo felt a bit better than it did in the books, but their wedding night together still creeps me out. I love the on-screen dynamic between Sansa and Septa Mordane. I could ramble for hours about how this show makes me feel.

I hope some earlier parts of this post don't come off as rude, tone is harder to convey over the internet. And I just put too much thought into this.

[ctas]

PS - What's with the hate toward Westeros.org from other ONTD posters? They view this site as sexist and misogynistic, I think because of various anti-Sansa threads?

this thread is a shining example of why, since so many assumptions are made about a specific gender AND "fangirls" on a livejournal site. bolding is mine, came out of lurkerdom to post.

eta: I'm a female politics graduate and I know/appreciate realpolitik in asoiaf. I am by no means the only one. Just because that sweeping generalisation was one of the most offensive in this thread.

[Xanderpanda]

I heartily agree with the earlier poster that complimented both ASoIAF and GoT for attracting both male and female fans in seemingly equal number. Their motivations are different, however. Again, read the above-referenced posts at ONTD or FanForum, two Internet communities that have gone utterly (and unexpectedly) bonkers over Game. The vast, vast, vast majority of posters are young women. They do not spend much time discussing whether Syrio lives. Although they are aware of and enjoy "Ned Stark is dumb" Internet memes, they do not spend much time debating the pros and cons of his failure to practice realpolitik in King's Landing, or the legality of executing the Night's Watch deserter. Rather, in the form of several thousands comments per each Game of Thrones-tagged "party post", they discuss how Robb Stark is the "King of the North of My Thighs" and will "Robb Me of My Hymen",[#] how much they "stan" Jon as the emo hipster of their dreams, how Littlefinger is both creepy pervert #1 and surprisingly attractive, how Joffrey must be violently killed after being slapped for many hours for the sake of humanity, and how Dany is cute with her dragons and being so strong after having survived the death of her "bb" Drago. Only a fool of a showrunner would not seek to appeal to this constituency--one that is completely new to HBO[!]--by making Jon/Ygritte and Robb/Jeyne the dreamiest of dreamy, 'shippable couples, and neither Benioff nor Weiss is a fool.[*]

[#] If you say you didn't laugh when you read this, you are a liar

[!] With two partial exceptions: True Blood, which many are seemingly cooling rapidly on (the new season's fairies are seemingly widely mocked; I have never watched the show or read the books so have no way to decide for myself), and Rome, of which the few who have seen it agree was terrific. They generally like The Borgias and jeer Camelot. They never, ever, mention The Wire, Mad Men, Breaking Bad, Deadwood, or The Sopranos.

[*] They are enthusiastic fans of the books, too, by the way, after discovering the show. As I mentioned earlier, Sandor/Sansa became a popular couple to 'ship long before any hint of this appeared on screen. They do not view Jaime as an outright villain because they know about Brienne. Even Cersei is not detested the way Joffrey is because many admire her as a strong woman.

Firstly MODS why is this post aloud to exist? you were up in arms about the the TWOP "noob" thread even closing the first one due to the rules of bashing other sites/forums yet this is here. (head over to ONTD if you think this post hasn't pissed us off)

Secondly this post I can't even.....Clearly in your eyes the series is 'SRS BUSINESS' and thus no one is aloud to have fun with it and should only have 'SRS' discussion. I myself have many female friends who have been watching the show because its a good show. The critical acclaim speaks for itself, quite a few have even read the books or are in the process of reading them. The reactions and discussions of the show and book series vary all over the internet for instance the TWOP non spoiler thread has heaps of intense discussion and theories and it has many female participants. I've visited ONTD almost daily for years and their GoT threads have been some of my favorites. Your acting like they are the only ones who make gifs. memes and ship clearly you have never been to /tv/ on 4chan which is predominately male and has just about the same sort of stuff as ONTD in their GoT threads (gifs, meme, joking around, ships etc). Its a gross generalization to say that all the female viewers and fans are only in it for the eye candy and romance just because one particular sites population likes to comment on it in its threads and SO what if they do? As a ONTDer myself I love the joking around and GIFS oh and guess what I'm male...

[Ran]

Normally we don't enjoy having questions about moderation policy being put in public rather than communicated to us privately. But I'll make an exception. The reason the post remained was that it was part of an on-going and pretty even-handed discussion, it seemed to me, and while it is manifestly not our policy to allow discussions of other forums here, it felt wrong to just delete a swathe of posts -- including from members of ONTD and FanForums -- to make the point.

So. That's why the post was not removed, so that there was continuity of discussion, but as I noted here, we asked people to stop referring to and discussing specific fan sites. Which, I should note, people have generally done.

[PrincessArianne]

As a young woman who not only appreciates REALPOLITIK and 'fabulous' 'deep' and 'meaningful' things, I also like the occasional piss take as well.

The comms are not serious. Most of the time those comms are NOT serious. You think that just because a woman likes to ship characters it doesn't make her a real fan, just a horny teenage girl? You are wrong.

Those comms have it's own vocabulary. Yes, I admit, it can be dumb as hell sometimes but we use 'SHE'S FIERCE' because it has in fact become lingo on the community and we all take amusement from saying stuff like that. It's all lighthearted fun.

Contrary to what some of the members here might think, so many women got into ASOIAF because of how layered and intricate GRRM's world it. We don't just watch to Robb's nipple so we can 'gush' over it. It's highly condescending and sexist that people can not possibly grasp that women only watch the show because of the 'shipping' and the nude scenes. That is NOT true.

I haven't posted much on here because I have admittedly felt a bit apprehensive, mostly because of things like this. Behind the sparkle text and caps lock is a lot of 'serious' discussions about ASOIAF. If you can't see past that not all women are horny teenagers, then I seriously feel extremely sorry for you.

And also, we appreciate the 'Ned Stark is dumb meme' because one of our users actually invented it.

(By the way, this not an attack. More like an argument. It's just rather sad that a fandom amazing as this one has petty squabbles like this)

[Ran]

Yes, I don't really know why judgments have to be made about who "real" fans are. There's all sorts of ways of enjoying the books and the TV show. I admit I don't get some ways that people prefer to be fans, but then, I don't really get the people who dress up as klingons or who devote themselves to learning a fictional language, and I know there are people who don't understand why I'm devoted to setting minutiae and heraldry -- different strokes for different folks, live and let live, etc.

The only particular thing I'm opposed to, in this or any other fandom, is fan fiction written without the consent of the writer (and, even, after the explicit denial of consent of the writer). And, I have to add now, fan works being created and then sold without license is starting to get my goat -- there's a lot of t-shirts and posters and stuff starting to be sold out on the internet in a way that's not appropriate, which is a shame, because fan artwork efforts is something GRRM has enthusiastically supported (and highlighted on his own site, as has HBO on MGoT) so long as it's non-commercial.

[Xanderpanda]

Personally I find all fandoms of popular things tend to be incredibly diverse from gender, age, nationality and so forth. I have observed and often partaken in many various ways of enjoying the thing we/they jointly love. Some like to spend hours in forums going into great detail analyzing every single thing trying to predict what happens next while others love to just talk about the characters and what they wish of them including romance potential. I've found male and female alike in many fandoms rabidly fighting discussing who will end up with who etc. I think the main thing is that as long as the books and show remain popular who cares how each fan male or female enjoys it. I'm sure the great majority of people who read ASOIAF and watch GoT are here for the wonderful world and the stories and characters that inhabit it so they should enjoy it in the way the pleases them. I don't think we should make generalizations about what each gender is coming into the series for though because as I've already stated earlier I've seen many male and female a like partaking in all aspects of the fandom.

[Ran]

Okay...

One more time, so I don't have to delete any more posts: we're not going to discuss some other forums in this thread. You want to talk broadly about different ways of appreciating the show or different groups of fans who might be divided along gender or age lines or what have you, that's okay, but leave specific communities out of it.