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Datepalm

R+L=J XXV

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Thread #24 closed due to length. Carry on.

It was thread 14, but every time someone re-opens another one they make the same mistake and ignore requests to fix it

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It was thread 14, but every time someone re-opens another one they make the same mistake and ignore requests to fix it

We're counting like the Night's Watch. Let's just call it the 998th R+L thread.

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I'm a believer of this theory, too.

But - a question to all other believers : if the theory, by some bizarre chance, turns out to not be true, will you be disappointed? Why?

I know that I myself, will be crestfallen. It just seems to fit so well, you know?

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I'm a believer of this theory, too.

But - a question to all other believers : if the theory, by some bizarre chance, turns out to not be true, will you be disappointed? Why?

I know that I myself, will be crestfallen. It just seems to fit so well, you know?

Here's what would upset me: If another theory turned out to be right and GRRM said "I have no idea where people got this R+L=J thing. They're crazy."

As is stands I'm dead convinced that GRRM has done everything to make this theory one of only 1 or 2 plausible theories. It's either right, or the clear red herring.

Now I will say: It ain't easy for a theory to work as well as R+L=J. I will of course also be upset if some other theory turns out to be right and it doesn't fit nearly as well.

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I think GRRM should have revealed this much sooner. There doesn't seem to be a reason for this to be a mystery for the reader for so long.

Even more now that almost everyone guessed this correctly.

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I'm a believer of this theory, too.

But - a question to all other believers : if the theory, by some bizarre chance, turns out to not be true, will you be disappointed? Why?

I know that I myself, will be crestfallen. It just seems to fit so well, you know?

if this theory isn't true, i'll feel that martin has done a massive bait and switch for no other reason than...well, that he could.

none of the other theories makes any sense; who cares if jon is the son of wylla, ashara dane, or some randon woman that ed stark happened to pork when he was off fighting. if jons parentage is central to the story, as martin has said, then there is no other candidate at all.

if r+l=j isn't true, it will be met with a massive /meh from almost everyone. i don't think martin would have wasted this much time on the mystery if he didn't plan an amazing pay-off.

i think he will drop more hints, but never quite come out and plainly state it for as long as he possibly can. the bastard.

edit: just think, we might have 6 years to discuss this issue. again.

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I think GRRM should have revealed this much sooner. There doesn't seem to be a reason for this to be a mystery for the reader for so long.

Even more now that almost everyone guessed this correctly.

However, overall, I think it's a fairly important caveat that there so far has been no confirmation of R+L=J, and therefore, it should not be referred to as "correct" until such confirmation is made available.

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I don't think it matters if/when he unveils it. Anyone that reads the series knows that things you thought to have been true or never had expected happen at any moment. :)

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Has anyone seen GRRM's interview with Google? He says some interesting things around the 10-12 minute mark about theories, why he wouldn't change his plans if someone had guessed correctly, (that's why he stays away from message boards), etc. He uses the analogy of the internet, where years ago if someone had guessed correctly it was Congratulations! you guessed correctly! But now with the internet if someone guesses correctly everybody is introduced to the theory within a very short time. (I'm paraphrasing).

I like to 'read between the lines' a lot, even when I'm speaking with other people. I find what some people won't say far more interesting than what they will, and perhaps it's just me but his demeanor suggested that somebody's on to something.

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I'm sure most, if not all the reasons for this theory's virtual certainty have been mentioned, so I do not think I can add up anything of consequence.

Should this theory fall untrue, I would only feel disappointed if the actual facts are of lesser importance or with less general basis than R+L=J... Which would almost be a certainty as well. D.R.

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New prediction: omg the Others are raping the world, where is Azor Ahai? Oops, it was not snow and we killed him

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We're counting like the Night's Watch. Let's just call it the 998th R+L thread.

Not a good idea: people have a hard time decoding CMXCVIII in their heads. ;-}

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I'm a believer of this theory, too.

But - a question to all other believers : if the theory, by some bizarre chance, turns out to not be true, will you be disappointed? Why?

I know that I myself, will be crestfallen. It just seems to fit so well, you know?

I think R+L=J has the best evidence, although not the most obvious evidence in the story so far.

However, I can think of one other theory that is at least plausible in my mind - although I think unlikely given time line discrepancies: Ned and Ashara Dayne. There is some mystery about the "why" of Ashara's alleged suicide and different people have different opinions about why she did it (if she did it). Having lost her brother at the hands of her now-married lover could push someone over the edge.

I would not be too disappointed if N+A=J turns out to be the conclusion although I think it would be a much less interesting story than R+L=J. The only reason to keep the secret would be to spare Ashara's reputation, and why couldn't Ned have told Jon that his mother was a noble woman, that he loved her and she is dead?

Any other version of events would seem a letdown I think. There must be a reason that Ned kept that secret all of Jon's life, and being the son of a fisherman's daughter or a household servant just isn't a reason for Ned to keep it a secret. it's just cruel.

On the other hand, if there's some danger to Jon (and everyone else) knowing the truth of his true parentage, that's a reason for Ned to keep the secret from Jon. That's why I think R+L=J makes the most sense. Ned is a man of honor and has only taken disgrace and dishonor upon himself only to protect his family...because that is the more honorable thing to do.

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The way Sam described telling a lie for a good reason being honourable sold me on the R+L=J. That and the way Ned talked about keeping his promises to Lyanna and the way he knew Robert would kill the children if he found out about the incest. If that theory holds true doesn't that make Jon the most powerful in terms of magic. He would have the ability to warg things as well as being able to use dragons? I know it hasn't been established that Jon can warg but all of the Starks have had wolf dreams. If they spent time with Jojen I would think they would more or less have the same abilities.

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The way Sam described telling a lie for a good reason being honourable sold me on the R+L=J. That and the way Ned talked about keeping his promises to Lyanna and the way he knew Robert would kill the children if he found out about the incest. If that theory holds true doesn't that make Jon the most powerful in terms of magic. He would have the ability to warg things as well as being able to use dragons? I know it hasn't been established that Jon can warg but all of the Starks have had wolf dreams. If they spent time with Jojen I would think they would more or less have the same abilities.

Ned also discussed "Lies not without honor" to Arya.

I thought that was telling, as well.

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Theres something fuzzy and I think explanation L+R=J is not so simple. We just need more info.

This story is big cliche.

I believe that Lyanna bore Jon to Raeghar, but I will be disappointed if this story turns out so simple.

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R+L=J is the most convincing view imo, but wouldn't Jon's hair be silver & eyes purple instead of black hair and brown? eyes? As that's how Stannis & Jon Arryn came to the realization Joff, Myrcella & Tommen were Jaime + Cersei, instead of Cersei + Robert.

(Idk if it's been asked before, long time lurker - usually stay away from X+Y=Z threads)

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R+L=J sounds good and all, but wouldn't Jon's hair be silver & eyes purple instead of black hair and brown? eyes?

Not necessarily. Rhaegar's daughter Rhaenys had the Martell look, as did Baelor Breakspear (from The Hedge Knight) and Bittersteel, who had his mother's dark hair. It is by no means the case that all children of Targaryens have the Targaryen look, therefore Jon's appearance doesn't disprove anything.

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Targ appearance seems to be recessive, which would explain the needs for inter-family marriage and there are also plenty of Targs without the look mentioned in canon and semi-canon sources :)

Rhaenys is said to favour her Dornish mother, and in the Dunk and Egg stories one of the princes has brown hair.

In short, Jon probably takes after Lyanna.

In even more short, no.

EDIT: oops, beaten to it.

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