R+L=J XXV

[Daughter of Dragons]

Wow! :huh:

Thanks everyone! I never really thought of Benjen in this whole situation.

It makes a lot of sense to me as well, too.

I did wonder why he may have wanted to join the Night's Watch, especially when only he and Ned were left of the Stark brood.

When I think on it, Benjen did seem to be very fond of Jon and he also seemed to be holding a lot of things inside himself.

Given the situation(especially if he had a hand in helping Lyanna elope)I can see how it might of been guilt that he was carrying.

If this does happen to be the case, then I hope that Benjen is the person that call tell Jon.

If Jon were told by anyone else, I doubt that he would believe it anyway.

I know that if I were in his shoes I wouldn't believe it either!

I think that the person that eventually tells Jon the truth, no matter what his parentage, is going to have to be a some what credible person.

Nobody else in Westeros would believe it otherwise either, if that was the way of it.

I can also see him wanting Jon in the NW to take the pressure off of Ned, but also to protect Jon.

At that time Ned was going to King's Landing to become Hand.

For years Ned had been in Winterfell and away from Robert and KL and when that hornet's nest was stirred again I think that Benjen saw that he needed to get Jon away.

He could have done this for Jon's and Ned's safety and out of fear of discovery. :dunno:

I am pretty sure that GRRM will remain true to form and the missing links in it all will be both entertaining and intriguing. ;)

[Daughter of Dragons]

Thats a good idea as well, CrypticWeirwood.

I can totally see how that this could be possible.

Bloodraven would probably be a reliable source, too.

If he said that he saw Ned's birth and Bran's birth then it is quite plausible that he did see Jon's as well.

In that case, I'm sure that the greenseer could possibly divulge that info to Bran.

I wonder if Bloodraven being capable of "seeing" the Stark's birth could have something to do with the fact that they are wargs, some are greenseers, and they are directly

decended from the children of the forrest?

[Shaggydog Stark]

I can also see him wanting Jon in the NW to take the pressure off of Ned, but also to protect Jon.

At that time Ned was going to King's Landing to become Hand.

For years Ned had been in Winterfell and away from Robert and KL and when that hornet's nest was stirred again I think that Benjen saw that he needed to get Jon away.

He could have done this for Jon's and Ned's safety and out of fear of discovery. :dunno:

I am pretty sure that GRRM will remain true to form and the missing links in it all will be both entertaining and intriguing. ;)

You have just made another excellent point. Jon would be protected as a member of the NW even if he were discovered to be a Targ. Robert would not be able to touch him since he had taken the black just like Maester Aemon. It really makes a lot of sense thrown in with the reasons for Benjen taking the black and maybe helping Lyanna elope.

It also makes Ned and Benjen Stark much more interesting and complex people. I really want to know more about them both but especially Benjen. I love this idea and the possibility that despite the fact that they were both honorable, they were capable of carrying out such a plot. To sacrifice so much for the love they bore their sister and her son. I have to say, Jon was really lucky to be born half a Stark. :)

[strifed169]

Has anyone mentioned this line in Jon's POV @ GoT yet? this along with everything else makes it so obvious that Lyanna is indeed his mother:

He would dream of his mother very often, she was very beautiful and highborn

not sure if exact quotes but it was when he was having a chat with Noye after the scuffle with Glenn and company at Castle Black.

[Galen M]

Has anyone mentioned this line in Jon's POV @ GoT yet? this along with everything else makes it so obvious that Lyanna is indeed his mother:

He would dream of his mother very often, she was very beautiful and highborn

not sure if exact quotes but it was when he was having a chat with Noye after the scuffle with Glenn and company at Castle Black.

And Ashara Dayne was ugly and lowborn, I forgot.

[Tormund the Hornblower]

Does most people seem to believe that Jon is a legitamate child by Lyanna and Rhaegar, considering obviouslly he is there child which I and most everyone seem to believe? Or would he a bastard of the two? I know there is evidence that he is and if Aegon is truly a fake then it wont matter if somehow Jon comes to be on the throne, right?

[Verboten]

Has anyone mentioned this line in Jon's POV @ GoT yet? this along with everything else makes it so obvious that Lyanna is indeed his mother:

He would dream of his mother very often, she was very beautiful and highborn

not sure if exact quotes but it was when he was having a chat with Noye after the scuffle with Glenn and company at Castle Black.

The fantasies of a child desperately wishing he was a Stark, not a Snow, don't count for anything. This is wishful thinking on Jon's part, and part of the reason the other recruits are able to piss him off so easily by taunting him about his mother is because as far as he knows, his mother could very well be a prostitute or camp follower.

[Fournaridis]

Does most people seem to believe that Jon is a legitamate child by Lyanna and Rhaegar, considering obviouslly he is there child which I and most everyone seem to believe? Or would he a bastard of the two? I know there is evidence that he is and if Aegon is truly a fake then it wont matter if somehow Jon comes to be on the throne, right?

I personally believe he's legitimate, due to the presence of the Kingsguard at the Tower of Joy, but, it's really, really, really, up for debate. Nothing is for certain and the Kingsguard's presence does not automatically mean he was the heir/legitimate.

[Yuki_no_Jon]

as about Jon's dream, I want to think it as the 2 meanings that GRRM is used to "hide". and with that I mean that the obvious meaning is that Jon want to be a Stark and of noblebirth and as a result as a child has such dreams. OTOH, in ASOIAF, dreams seem to have a prophetic meaning, to give us hints of sth which happened or sth which is meant to be. and adding to the complexity of this though, it can be true or it cannot, it can be meant for the past or the future, it can be just a wishful thinking!

[Daughter of Dragons]

Does most people seem to believe that Jon is a legitamate child by Lyanna and Rhaegar, considering obviouslly he is there child which I and most everyone seem to believe? Or would he a bastard of the two? I know there is evidence that he is and if Aegon is truly a fake then it wont matter if somehow Jon comes to be on the throne, right?

I'm not quite sure what I really think about Jon's being illegitamate or not.

I do know that past Targaryen kings believed that it was fine to have more than one wife.

Aegon The conqueror had his two sisters as wives and claimed his children from both as legitamate heirs.

This also happened with many of the kings thereafter.

We know that Rhaegar and Elia were married and it was considered legal because we've seen no other indication otherwise.

So, perhaps, Rhaegar took Lyanna to wife also.

That way her honor would be spared and any childrn they had would be considered legitamite heirs.

Lyanna was a Stark and I think that even if she had loved Rhaegar, she would never be content to, willingly, have a full out affair with a married man and bear him children.

I could be wrong about it all but it's just a thought.

The Targaryens were the ruling family and Aerys was insane, so I think that Rhaegar could have had things as he wanted without any objections.

When Ned came to rescue Lyanna and learned that she had a son and of the marriage(if that is the fact)she asked him to take her son and raise him as his own.

She would have known at that point that was the best for him, because Robert would have wanted him dead both because he was a Targaryen and a living reminder of her choosing Rhaegar over him.

[feast-of-fros]

this theory reminds me of two of the biggest theories of the harry potter series: ie

1.RAB is regulus black(from the locket letter book 6) and

2. snape loved lily potter (possibly starting as early as book 3)

both of those theories were written about extensively to the point where it became just widely accepted and anything less/different would be a cheat. the only thing left for jk rowling to do by then was do a good job of confirming those theories and i think she did a masterful job. both scenes are among the most powerful and moving in book 7.

I think its the same with GRRM, and this theory started in book 1. the longer he holds it off, the more powerful the writing for this theory/scene will need to be. i think the whole series will rise or collapse how he handles the issue of jon's parentage

I'm a believer of this theory, too.

But - a question to all other believers : if the theory, by some bizarre chance, turns out to not be true, will you be disappointed? Why?

I know that I myself, will be crestfallen. It just seems to fit so well, you know?

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

I'm a believer of this theory, too.

But - a question to all other believers : if the theory, by some bizarre chance, turns out to not be true, will you be disappointed? Why?

I know that I myself, will be crestfallen. It just seems to fit so well, you know?

Great question. Unless he REALLY explains it well, I'll feel like it was kind of a cop-out. It's one thing to dangle a red herring here and there, but a series-long red herring would be too much.

I feel at this point R+L=J is kind of the elephant in the room. Most people know it, and Martin knows most people know it, but for whatever reason, we can't get confirmation yet.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

I'm not quite sure what I really think about Jon's being illegitamate or not.

I do know that past Targaryen kings believed that it was fine to have more than one wife.

Aegon The conqueror had his two sisters as wives and claimed his children from both as legitamate heirs.

This also happened with many of the kings thereafter.

We know that Rhaegar and Elia were married and it was considered legal because we've seen no other indication otherwise.

So, perhaps, Rhaegar took Lyanna to wife also.

That way her honor would be spared and any childrn they had would be considered legitamite heirs.

Lyanna was a Stark and I think that even if she had loved Rhaegar, she would never be content to, willingly, have a full out affair with a married man and bear him children.

I could be wrong about it all but it's just a thought.

The Targaryens were the ruling family and Aerys was insane, so I think that Rhaegar could have had things as he wanted without any objections.

When Ned came to rescue Lyanna and learned that she had a son and of the marriage(if that is the fact)she asked him to take her son and raise him as his own.

She would have known at that point that was the best for him, because Robert would have wanted him dead both because he was a Targaryen and a living reminder of her choosing Rhaegar over him.

I'm in the "Jon was legitimate" camp, for a few reasons:

1. Rhaegar was clearly trying to mirror the general actions of Aegon the Conquerer, who was a polygamist.

2. A lot has been made about Targaryen polygamy, to the point where it has to be a Chekov's gun.

3. Only legal children can inherit. If Jon was illegitimate, he wouldn't be an heir to the throne and the Kingsguard would have no reason to still be at the Tower of Joy if Aerys, Rhaegar and Aegon were all dead — Viserys would be the legitimate king. The very presence of the Kingsguard at the Tower suggests that Jon was the real heir, and thus legitimate.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Perhaps this has been said in another post already, but I think that we already have definite prove to disregard Ashara Dayne as Jon's mother.

While in Meereen, Barristan remembers Harrenhal and how he loved Ashara. Then he says Ashara's stillborn was a daughter, not a son. Even if the child did not really perish and something else happened to Ashara, it is clear now through Barristan, that Lady Dayne is not the mother of Jon Snow, which gives almost definitive foundation to R+L=J, since the thing about Wylla has never been strong.... Mind you, I'm inclined to think that Ned simply mentioned Wylla (Whoever she really was) because she nursed Jon as the rebellion finished, and most probably someone must have seen him in her company and misinterpreted the whole thing. I also think that Ashara played some part in the whole plot, but certainly not as the mother. D.R.

You can actually disregard Ashara as the mother without considering what's under the spoiler tag.

Jon would've been conceived shortly after the war began. From what we can piece together, Ashara was always in the south at that time, presumably at Starfall (Martin said she stopped accompanying Elia in the last year of Elia's life).

We know that Ned was at the Eyrie when the war broke out, and he then presumably went North to call his banners and then was in the thick of the fighting in the Riverlands. So how on earth would he have been able to conceive a child at that time with a woman who, in that time frame, had never left Dorne or the Crownlands? And if you assume that Wylla has always had employment ties in Dorne, the same rationale should disregard her, too.

[CrypticWeirwood]

The horrible tragedy at Summerhall came from some sort of betrayal as Egg was trying to hatch dragons from stone. So instead of one from the stone eggs, he instead got one of the flesh: Rhaegar is Egg’s dragon, for he was born during that conflagration, and he is surely Egg’s descendent.

I just cannot seeing all the build-up to Summerhall, all that will be invested in Egg himself once all seven novellas are written, to come to nothing in the end. Something must come from Rhaegar, or that was all a complete waste. Rhaegar is the dragon hatched from (the) Egg at Summerhall, and his son shall be the Prince Who Was Promised, be that Jon or Aegon or both.

I just don’t understand why Rhaegar said that Aegon’s was the song of ice and fire. How does that fit in?

[SerArthurHeath]

Bloodraven said he watched Bran’s birth and Ned’s, too. Bran I can understand because he was waiting for another human greenseer, but why Ned’s? Not just for Ned being Bran’s father, or he would have mentioned Cat’s, too. But he didn’t. So why Ned’s and not just Bran’s?

And if he watched those two’s births, mightn’t he have watched Jon’s as well?

Bloodraven has to know the whole story. And I’m betting Bran will eventually learn it, too.

can Bloodraven warg far enough to watch Jon's birth so far from the wall unless there was a heart tree present?

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

I just don’t understand why Rhaegar said that Aegon’s was the song of ice and fire. How does that fit in?

One theory is that, at the time, Rhaegar thought Aegon WAS the Prince That Was Promised and later, for whatever reason, changed his mind. I don't think, for instance, it's an accident that he chose a woman from a family associated with ice and winter. I'm sure he was in love with Lyanna, yeah, but I also think that Rhaegar eventually decided that the "real" Prince had to be born of a literal union of fire (Rhaegar) and ice (Lyanna). How or why he'd change his mind to come to that conclusion remains to be seen.

That's also why so many people who subscribe to the theory that Jon is ultimately the primary protagonist of the entire thing point to the series title, "A Song of Ice and Fire," as evidence of this. If you take "song" to mean "epic or story," and "ice and fire" to refer to the union of Rhaegar and Lyanna, then the series' title could literally mean, "The Epic of Jon Snow." Knowing Martin it's much more layered than that, but it's worth thinking about — we think it refers to winter or dragon fire or whatever, when really it's just about this one kid.

[blackseer]

Probably been discussed before, but I wonder how will this theory be introduced in the TV series? Because I watched it before reading the books and had no idea who Jon mother was and there was only a pretty vague mention on the name Wylla. Will R+l=J be more fleshed out in the next seasons?

[angel_eyes1_uk]

Hi...first posting. Forgive my ignorance if I wrongfoot myself, but I've just followed the thread through from the beginning over about a week and my head REALLY hurts. It's still sorting out what we really have proof or very strong allusions to, and what some just decided to dream up for themselves. Not that it's a problem--I like to think ahead and fill in the gaps myself. Just I know I'm not always right...far from it. Lots of epileptic trees, I think--but that's cool. I love theories.

In a nutshell--I'm open-minded. I really like the idea of R+L=J. Some might say it's cliched but I agree with those that say GRRM can transcend that. Personally, I feel this story is going to have a bittersweet ending. I like the idea of Benjen Stark getting involved and sorting out some of those complications that came up at the end of the last book...or someone else who might feel helpful. *cough* Coldhands *cough*

One little idea I have is that R+L=J, Danaerys comes over to Westeros, Jon needs help up North. She has a chance to take the throne but finding out she's got an honourable relative that isn't a loony, she decides to lend a hand. Maybe someone else with a claim gets to KL before her. I think D/J team up could be epic, and I'm not talking romantic sense.

Maybe Targ blood or not, Jon wants no part of the throne--not least because he has no interest; he's just glad to know who mummy and daddy were, and that he wasn't a bastard after all. A real legitimate Stark, and highborn. Very highborn.

I like to think that the bittersweet ending will be that Danaerys rules...and well, dies childless, and then because Jon dies childless before her, it goes to the another person (I'm not wanting to say too much.) Jon finds peace with himself, is happy to settle in the North, knowing he has family, his honour, a good name, and oh...helped kick the ass of the Great Other with his Auntie.

However, I am aware that there's two books left, and there's a whole ravel of things to come undone re: Dorne/Tower of Joy/Starfell, and that my theory is more conjecture than factual.

And there you have it...my two penn'orth.

[arrowfodder]

Another theory not as grandiose, and perhaps letting the air out of a few others:

The Kingsguard has been detailed as being of fluctuating responsibility, given the King's whimsy/stance; from solely guarding the king himself, to guarding the family and others. They do live in the center of KL and are a constant presence as the Kingsguard. Would their presence only signify the presence of the heir? Some of the KG were clearly deployed to blunt the attack on Aerys and the Throne, and others were there to protect Aerys in person. (...As an aside... Oooooops.) :thumbsup: Not sure I accept that their presence alone is proof.

Given the state of Kings Landing with war coming to their doorstep, and the general nature of the court as a pit of snakes... perhaps Lyanna saw what loomed over her child. Aerys, the Mad King as a grandfather, if the rebellion failed. Rhaegar possibly usurping the throne... Robert Baratheon usurping the throne... who knows if she looked at Robert and saw the singleminded warrior, wencher, and saw an absence of empathy and parenting skills? It's strange to read Robert's assessment of Joffrey saying he can't believe the kid is his, and while the reader can point to the incest, one can also look at how much time, effort and guidance the King is putting forth for his heir. Did Lyanna see this in Robert, see her surroundings and where she was in her life, and given the opportunity to spare her baby of all she saw.... seize the opportunity to get him away from all that KL meant to the safety of Winterfell?

Jon may have had a crap childhood as a bastard, but he could have been Joffrey. Lyanna may have just been being a mother... that bought her son 15 or so years of relative peace.