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Winter's Breath

when the sun rises in the west and sets in the east...

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As Tyion is travelling west to east it would follow to me that when Dany finally decides to head to Westeros then she will be travelling east to west so therefore Valyria would appear rising in the west as she approaches and setting in the east as she goes past.

I never thought of that. I would really love it if she stopped by Valyria before going to Westeros. That place has always been fascinating to me and the dragons would probably be drawn to it.

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Mayhaps Victarion? She'll probably hate him at first.

If Dany marries Victarion Greyjoy, I'll stop reading these books. That would be just terrible.

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I'm not sure why people assume that geo-centric lawa will always apply. In a land where seasons are sporadic, the sun could probably rise anywhere.

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I'm not sure why people assume that geo-centric lawa will always apply. In a land where seasons are sporadic, the sun could probably rise anywhere.

But nothing anyone has ever said EVER in the series indicates that the sun "could" rise anywhere besides in the east as it does in our world. Why would we not assume this is true? It's stated all the time in the series that the seasons are of varying lengths. If the sun could rise anywhere other than the east, wouldn't it have come up? Also, why would MMD even say what she does if the sun could rise anywhere but the east?

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But nothing anyone has ever said EVER in the series indicates that the sun "could" rise anywhere besides in the east as it does in our world. Why would we not assume this is true? It's stated all the time in the series that the seasons are of varying lengths. If the sun could rise anywhere other than the east, wouldn't it have come up? Also, why would MMD even say what she does if the sun could rise anywhere but the east?

Right, of course that's the position. But I'm saying we know of no natural law that suggests it's a must. Just history repeating. Very telling, but not conclusive. And unprecedented things do happen in the books.

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Hello!

First post.

Okay, so could it be possible Dany is suffering from the Pale Mare? I thought some of the symptons were severe stomach cramps, diarhea mixed with blood? I know that Dany had a "gushing" of blood but she had just been squatting in a bush..also she could not quench her thirst. Another sympton of the disease.

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Hello!

First post.

Okay, so could it be possible Dany is suffering from the Pale Mare? I thought some of the symptons were severe stomach cramps, diarhea mixed with blood? I know that Dany had a "gushing" of blood but she had just been squatting in a bush..also she could not quench her thirst. Another sympton of the disease.

Welcome!

Of course you could be right. GRRM likes to tease us. So a straightforward reading on the text would suggest that she is simply suffering from the disease. But many of us want Dany to become fertile again, so we read the text and hope that it's actually something else. Neither side is "wrong" without further information, but they're both perfectly plausible suggestions.

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Right, of course that's the position. But I'm saying we know of no natural law that suggests it's a must.

Sure we do: "Every morning the sun rises in the east and every evening it sets in the west". Seems to be an extremely well established law of nature.

Just because in our world we can further analyze it with astronomical facts that don't necessarily hold in the world of Ice and Fire doesn't make it any less trustworthy. A bit like claiming that at any time, gravity could start to point up instead of down - just because the strange season stuff suggests that our standard astronomical model and thus Newtonian mechanics might not hold, the standard corollaries we can draw from it and which people accepted long before they even knew what Newtonian mechanics were, still stand quite firm.

Of course we're talking about a work of fiction yadda yadda and if GRRM wants to perform a cheesy miracle with the sun actually rising in the west he could. But there's no getting around that it would be changing the mechanics of his world in a very fundamental way.

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Sure we do: "The sun always rises in the east and sets in the west". Seems to be an extremely well established law of nature.

Just because in our world we can further explain it with astronomical facts that don't necessarily hold in the world of Ice and Fire doesn't make it any less trustworthy.

A bit like claiming that at any time, gravity could start to point up instead of down - just because the strange season stuff suggests that our standard astronomical model and thus Newtonian mechanics might not hold, the standard corollaries we can draw from it and which people accepted long before they even knew what Newtonian mechanics were, still stand quite firm.

Of course we're talking about a work of fiction yadda yadda and if GRRM wants to perform a cheesy miracle with the sun actually rising in the west he could. But there's no getting around that it would be changing the mechanics of his world in a very fundamental way.

But GRRM has already divorced itself from any mechanics whatsoever.

I could go on about flat earth and whatnot, but I honestly have no emotional or intellectual investment in this argument. It's just a point; if seasons aren't fixed, neither is an axis, and if an axis isn't fixed, only precedent suggests order.

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But GRRM has already divorced itself from any mechanics whatsoever.

I could go on about flat earth and whatnot, but I honestly have no emotional or intellectual investment in this argument. It's just a point; if seasons aren't fixed, neither is an axis, and if an axis isn't fixed, only precedent suggests order.

Or the ice ages of this planet can be shorter and more frequent than ours. There are "summer snows" every year. The winters could be mini ice ages.

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Or the ice ages of this planet can be shorter and more frequent than ours. There are "summer snows" every year. The winters could be mini ice ages.

Nah, as I understand them, ice ages are by necessity long, in that their basis is linked with what the extreme long term cold does to the earth's sub-layer. But of course if no rules of natural law apply, you could be right at that.

It's a wacky wacky world, and that's even before the discovery of chocolate.

Wait, is there chocolate in Westeros, I can't remember.

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It's a wacky wacky world, and that's even before the discovery of chocolate.

Wait, is there chocolate in Westeros, I can't remember.

Probably. From what I know of this world GRRM created, there seems to be a great variety of every kind of food and drink. I forget all the passages describing what the characters are eating. :cheers:

These are questions for wise men with skinny arms.

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I just had an idea about that: I used to think it just meant never, but while reading about the "blue flower" vision in the HoTU (http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/94541-daenerys-targaryens-house-of-the-undying-prophecy-explained/) I thought that, even though I believe the blue flower is about jon snow and not at all Dany, if she were to come to the wall, there would be an explanation to "When the sun rises in the west and sets in the east, when the seas go dry and mountains blow in the wind like leaves, when your womb quickens again, and you bear a living child. Then he will return, and not before."


It's just an idea that came to me, I'm not even sure to believe it myself...however here it is:

- Maybe "the sun" isn't about the real sun, but about light and heat, so it could be fire, or dragon fire... and even if it isn't, there's the Quentyn explanation, but it could be like dragons fighting the Others, or any other situation, in which dragons could breath fire from the west to the east, and if for example the narrator is injured (Dany?) she/he could see it (before dying?) as the sun?

- the "seas" can have any meaning, it can be a sea of people, or the actual sea, or a sea of snow? could mean so many things...a sea of Others? (yes, i know, i haven't thought it through, and most likely the dothraki sea...)

- the "mountains blow in the wind like leaves" = the wall coming down? (because of the dragons? or the horn?) (==> that was the main idea),

I don't see any other "mountain" blowing in the wind...unless 2nd doom...

-the child also can have many different meanings, since she calls all here people and dragons her chilrend... but because of "when your womb quickens again" it's got to do with either an actual baby or something that involves pain


And what I think will happen if, in one way or the other, all of it happens, is that Dany is going to die, I don't see another way for her to be reunited with Drogo.

I believe she is going to Asshai with the Dothraki, or at dragon back, maybe that's where Drogon has been trying to make her go? There she'll learn the "Truth", and then she's going to the wall to kick some ass and then she'll die. And I wish Dany could avoid getting together with someone of her family, her (nephew?) Jon Snow or Aegon...

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All these prophecies make some sort of sense except the Mormont one. IMO Dany will have another child with another man THEN fall in love with him and he becomes her Sun-and-Stars.

What's the Mormont Prophecy? Am I just having a major blond moment here?!

Sorry for being a complete idiot at times.

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I think the prophecy is mostly, if not completely, allegory. I don't think the world will flip its axis for the sun to rise in the west. Either this was an elaborate and poetic way of saying "Never" or the sun rising in the west means something else.



Some people say it is Quentyn Martell. I think it might be Cersei. She is called "the light of the West" and is Lady of Casterly Rock. If Cersei meets her doom on the East city of King's Landing, then she is "set" in the east. that is where her light will be extinguished



The sea running dry could be a drought in the sea of grass, or the ocean freezing over, like people have speculated. I don't think GRRM has ever referred to the Faith of the Seven as a Holy See (despite other Catholic similiarities), but the sea could be yet another allegory. I think it must be something to do with King's Landing.



Mountains blowing in the wind like leaves could be Gregor Clegane - he is Cersei's zombie champion. He'd likely be with Cersei at her end, and a good dragon fire scorching would make him blow away.



I'm stumped on quickening and live child - that part does seem pretty literal. Maybe Dany will die in childbed, leaving an heir to carry on the Targaryen bloodline but being reunited with Drogo and her first child in death.


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It wasn't a prophecy and MMD wasn't saying Dany was barren. She expected her to be dragged back to the Dosh Khaleen and left there for the rest of her life. No remarriage, no children.



It's fun that these things are coming to pass, but I don't believe MMD intended to predict the future. I do think if Daenerys ever finds another true love he will have a lot of things in common with Drogo though.


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