Sandor V.16

[FacelessGirl]

other fan just claimed that he isnt angry anymore !

yes why isnt he angry anymore? now you are getting there. Was his face healed as well? did he forget about the suffering?

IF you are saying that religion was the reason of his sudden personality change thn the mystical powers indeed were involved?

Well there are countless theoriey here, look at the crackpot thread.

What to believe what not to believe? I am all for R + L = R but i will always have

some doubt about it unless i read it in the book, the reason is i dont trust GRRM anymore.

When we belive something is def true, something diff happens.

Were mystical powers at work when Lancel had his religious epiphany? I didn't think so. Furthermore I just said we don't know if he is completely changed. You seem to think that because he wasn't a raging acoholic last time we saw him he doen't still have a bit of sass. I doubt this is true.

Those trust issues are something you'll have to work out on your own time.

[Solaris]

He was saved and cared for by a monk. Religion can be a stronger force than you seem to realize, especially for someone as tormented as Sandor.

And who's to say he's totally changed in personality? Just because he's not going around telling people off and snarling at the world doesn't mean he's completely different. He's just not angry anymore.

Sansa's Prayer

"...for all the brave knights and soldiers who would die today and for the children and the wives

who would mourn them, and finally, toward the end, she even sang for Tyrion the Imp and for

the Hound. He is no true knight but he saved me all the same, she told the mother. Save him

if you can, and gentle the rage inside him." Pg 736 Sansa's chapter aCoK

[Fredward]

When we belive something is def true, something diff happens.

You mean kinda like how we are led to believe the Hound is dead but it turns out he's actually a gravedigger at a monastery? -_-

[FacelessGirl]

Sansa's Prayer

"...for all the brave knights and soldiers who would die today and for the children and the wives

who would mourn them, and finally, toward the end, she even sang for Tyrion the Imp and for

the Hound. He is no true knight but he saved me all the same, she told the mother. Save him

if you can, and gentle the rage inside him." Pg 736 Sansa's chapter aCoK

Isn't it beautiful? :)

You mean kinda like how we are led to believe the Hound is dead but it turns out he's actually a gravedigger at a monastery? -_-

Right on. :closedeyes:

[Solaris]

Isn't it beautiful? :)

Yes, it's another one of the reasons I dont understand why people keep saying Sansa is terrified of of him. Yeah he scares the crap out of her when he has his moments but she understands him.

The doctrine of the 7 says that there is one God and the 7 facetts of the one God.

The Stranger is the face of duality, seen as male and female or neither. The Stranger is a wanderer in the far places, seen as the face of death. The Stranger is also the dark guide who leads the newly dead to the other world, and judges whether a soul is punished and sent to the seven hells, or rewarded............... Few if any ever pray to or sing about the Stranger, for he or she is the face of death.

Seems a fittin' rebirth for Sandor

[FacelessGirl]

Yes, it's another one of the reasons I dont understand why people keep saying Sansa is terrified of of him. Yeah he scares the crap out of her when he has his moments but she understands him.

The doctrine of the 7 says that there is one God and the 7 facetts of the one God.

The Stranger is the face of duality, seen as male and female or neither. The Stranger is a wanderer in the far places, seen as the face of death. The Stranger is also the dark guide who leads the newly dead to the other world, and judges whether a soul is punished and sent to the seven hells, or rewarded............... Few if any ever pray to or sing about the Stranger, for he or she is the face of death.

Seems a fittin' rebirth for Sandor

Fear is definitely an emotion Sansa felt around Sandor, that can't be denied. But like you said she understands him, and also realizes he was the only person to truly have her back when she was in King's Landing. Also I think she'll come to realize Sandor is far from the person she should be terrified of. That title goes to Littlestfinger IMO.

I've always felt that Sandor and Sansa represented the Stranger and the Maiden in the series. What do you think? :)

[Candor]

Fear is definitely an emotion Sansa felt around Sandor, that can't be denied. But like you said she understands him, and also realizes he was the only person to truly have her back when she was in King's Landing. Also I think she'll come to realize Sandor is far from the person she should be terrified of. That title goes to Littlestfinger IMO.

I've always felt that Sandor and Sansa represented the Stranger and the Maiden in the series. What do you think? :)

I go back and forth on Sansa, and Sandor to some extent. It is as if they have gone from suiting one more, to later suiting another better.

Sandor has strong parallels with the Stranger, but I think prior to recent events he could have been identified with the Warrior.

Sansa has been like the Maiden for longer, but recently I have seen her behavior suit that of the Mother.

[zalim]

I am not religious either.

We're not saying that you must believe what is in the thread only that it kind of lets you see where our ideas come from

I dont mind theories, theories are good, it makes things more interesting because now i am really dying to read on this more and

see the purpose of all this sandor story. Majority believes he is alive where only few ppl think he is dead so we will have to see.

Were mystical powers at work when Lancel had his religious epiphany? I didn't think so. Furthermore I just said we don't know if he is completely changed. You seem to think that because he wasn't a raging acoholic last time we saw him he doen't still have a bit of sass. I doubt this is true.

Those trust issues are something you'll have to work out on your own time.

Lancels exmaple was irrelevant.

Theory suggests that Sandor was healed physicall and emotionally.

yes exactly how did that man became a damn monk? it is kind of funny to hear about it lol Sandor the hound now Sandor the monk lol.

When he was a hound he had this terrible mighty personality and now? just a monk? whats the purpose of it ?

You mean kinda like how we are led to believe the Hound is dead but it turns out he's actually a gravedigger at a monastery? -_-

no i mean how majority of ppl believe he is alive but the reality is much more simple, he is dead and gone.

[FacelessGirl]

I go back and forth on Sansa, and Sandor to some extent. It is as if they have gone from suiting one more, to later suiting another better.

Sandor has strong parallels with the Stranger, but I think prior to recent events he could have been identified with the Warrior.

Sansa has been like the Maiden for longer, but recently I have seen her behavior suit that of the Mother.

Great points on their character development. Before she died I felt Catelyn best represented the Mother, but with Sansa's treatment of Sweet Robin, she is slowly replacing her in that role. Sandor is and always will be a Warrior, this I can agree with. :)

[Candor]

Great points on their character development. Before she died I felt Catelyn best represented the Mother, but with Sansa's treatment of Sweet Robin, she is slowly replacing her in that role. Sandor is and always will be a Warrior, this I can agree with. :)

There is her mothering, but I was also thinking of her mercy, a trait that is given to the Mother as justice is to the Father.

[FacelessGirl]

Lancels exmaple was irrelevant.

Theory suggests that Sandor was healed physicall and emotionally.

yes exactly how did that man became a damn monk? it is kind of funny to hear about it lol Sandor the hound now Sandor the monk lol.

When he was a hound he had this terrible mighty personality and now? just a monk? whats the purpose of it ?

How is that irrvelevant? He's a perfect example of someone changed by religion without the use of "magic".

Technically Sandor is not a monk, he was saved phyiscally and spiritually by one. Something his soul clearly needed.

[Candor]

Well, I for one, and very tired, and so I must say au revoir pour la nuit. I look forward to see what you all have come up with, keep up the good work! :grouphug:

[Fredward]

no i mean how majority of ppl believe he is alive but the reality is much more simple, he is dead and gone.

No. See by your logic that "when we believe something is def true something diff happens" it would go like this:

Millions of people read EB say that he buried the Hound ----> Millions of people now think the Hound is dead (def true) -----> A certain thread is started by Cosmic Maintenance Man which leads millions (?) of people to believe that the Hound lives (something diff) -----> Zalim takes his logic and applies it backward arguing that the Hound IS in fact dead and the "something diff" never happened = This situation. <_<

[zalim]

How is that irrvelevant? He's a perfect example of someone changed by religion without the use of "magic".

Technically Sandor is not a monk, he was saved phyiscally and spiritually by one. Something his soul clearly needed.

Irrelevant in a way that lancel was never as damaged as Sandor.

you can not compare the two.

Though about the change. I have to say that i saw a difference in

Sandor when he was with Arya. He did seem a bit soft butttttt

he was wayyyy two damaged to change so rapidly.

Oh well it was a nice soldie discussion. I really believe that Sandor was dead and I still believe he is dead but

seeing a cult so devoted to Sandor now i am not ruling out anything.lol :D ;)

[zalim]

No. See by your logic that "when we believe something is def true something diff happens" it would go like this:

Millions of people read EB say that he buried the Hound ----> Millions of people now think the Hound is dead (def true) -----> A certain thread is started by Cosmic Maintenance Man which leads millions (?) of people to believe that the Hound lives (something diff) -----> Zalim takes his logic and applies it backward arguing that the Hound IS in fact dead and the "something diff" never happened = This situation. <_<

haa?

that was a total fail lol whatever you just said had no logic or fact. :D

[Solaris]

Irrelevant in a way that lancel was never as damaged as Sandor.

you can not compare the two.

Though about the change. I have to say that i saw a difference in

Sandor when he was with Arya. He did seem a bit soft butttttt

he was wayyyy two damaged to change so rapidly.

Oh well it was a nice soldie discussion. I really believe that Sandor was dead and I still believe he is dead but

seeing a cult so devoted to Sandor now i am not ruling out anything.lol :D ;)

You cant rule anything out with GRRM, not after Bran, Rickon, Catelyn, Dondarrion, Aegon etc etc etc and we all know how tricksy he is with language.

the Hound is dead, Sandor is at rest. Until I see a corpse I am not convinced and even then we saw Catelyns corpse and she still refluxed.

[voodooqueen126]

I will answer to both these quotes together.

I bring MAGIC into this because the fans here say that he was healed ok lets say he was healed but why would natural healing

change his nature? i am sure he got injured and healed countless times before. He was a monster, he killed without remorse and all

of the sudden he was a different man? i see no logic in that.

So the only thing i can think of is maybe there was some mystical powers involved to revive him (assuming he still is alive).

So far only those mystical powers seems to change a persons personality.

Well, we haven't seen the Seven having any power, but it is possible that the reason the Elder Brother on the Quiet Isle is able to heal people that Maester's cannot is that he receives divine intervention, aka a miracle, which would tie with Thoros of Myr's point that "R'hllor still has a purpose for him"

Significantly this healing comes from the moral deities (the Seven), rather than immoral deities like R'hllor (the healing that Victarion received).

But generally a natural healing is assumed, since he limps (where as presumably a miracle or divine intervention would heal perfectly).

He is a large man, very healthy and very strong, which helps.

From the scene on the battle of the blackwater, (which is after Sandor has been shown up and shamed by Tyrion and is surrounded by fire, which Sandor fears. Which is when Sandor leaves the Lannisters, this is the beginning of Sandor's breakdown, but also the beginning of the death of the Hound and the beginning Sandor's redemption (when Sansa touches his cheek, which ties into Dante's notion that the love of a pure woman will inspire a man to be a better person), since by leaving the service of the Lannisters (an abusive bunch of creepes who encourage his hated brother), he takes himself out of the company of evil men.

When we next see Sandor it is through Arya's POV, and is his fight with Beric. he is drunk but still wants to live, but certainly he is not taking very good care of his own life.

Then he kidnaps Arya to get a reward from Robb Stark. He also talks about his hopes and dreams: he wants a lordship and the chance to serve Robb and kill Gregor. Perhaps reading between the lines, he wants a chance to serve an honourable lord, who doesn't order him to kill children or call him things like Dog (he specifically says that he got sick of being kicked).

Then the Red Wedding happens and Sandor loses his remaining hope of service to the Starks, but he still looks after Arya, even though she no longer has any financial value. He is drinking constantly if I remember correctly.

Then he hears of Sansa's marriage to a deformed and disgusting man who had previously humiliated him (and Sandor seems to have long disliked Tyrion anyway) who is also known to visit whores obsessively (the equivalent in our world and day and age to a guy who has a huge collection of kinky or violent pornography) and whom Sandor probably knows had his previous wife gang raped....

It is then that Sandor loses hope. although he still continues on fighting (despite being drunk)

So he has been sinking lower and lower since the Battle of the Blackwater (which according to errant bard occured on the 22/10/299) but arguably the seeds for his redemption began earlier than that (on the day when Sansa tells him he is and awful man and going to hell, although the Tourney of the Hand demonstrates that there is some good in Sandor even before then)...

And Arya leaves him to die on the 9/02/300... So Sandor has had nearly four months of sinking lower and lower before he hit rock bottom.

Brienne arrives at the Quiet Isle on the 8/04/300 so this gives Sandor 2 months to recover from an infected leg wound.

Now as for his character changes:

In this documentary/reality tv, 5 modern (and with the exception of one reasonably prosperous) british blokes spend 40 days in a Benedictine Monastery.

http://www.youtube.c...h?v=5TlIxgET_dk

by the end of those 40 days, guys who had not been raised in premodern, superstitious and religious society where changing their lives. None of these men were raised Catholic and yet living in a monastery for a mere 40 days had a huge effect on them....

Now Sandor was raised in the Faith of the Seven, it is also worth noting that Sandor was the 'hating god for being a failure atheist" rather than the indifference/not enough scientific proof atheist.

Sandor lives in a premodern society, where there is no science, no theory of evolution, there isn't even any philosophy like Epicurus to influence him...

He has served dishonourable and immoral people who cultivated evil people like his brother and they have ordered him to kill children (Mycah). Yet he has seen these evil people abuse a defenceless little girl, who was the only person who was nice to him.

Then over 4 months he slowly hits rock bottom, with out of control drinking and no future for him, the girl he loved lost to him forever.

Sounds ripe for religious conversion... A Christian Evangelists would have a heydey with Sandor...

and then Sandor is saved (possibly miraculously), but certainly the elder brother, in saving Sandor committed an act of extreme forgiveness (since Sandor had a horrible reputation) and totally undeserved mercy/good samaritism...

He then, as of the final Jaime chapter in ADWD (which is set roughly 6 months after the Red Wedding), has spent 4 months in the company of not mere Benedictines, but rather the Westerosi equivalent of these guys:

http://www.youtube.c...feature=related

Having hit rock bottom, then rescued, by someone who was himself much worse than Sandor (remember the Elder Brother was once a rapist), yet still had the miraculous ability to heal someone as badly wounded as himself (and a premodern person would see this as being a divine miracle rather than luck+strong constitution+medical skill) which a) shows that someone much worse than Sandor can be divinely favoured b)can also change from being a person much worse than Sandor to being a supremely merciful and good person.

He is then surrounded by extremely spiritual and gentle people (who live the ultimate religious ascetic life style), yet who share his life experience (they're all sinners on the quiet isle remember) and the EB seems actively invested in Sandor's salvation

The Elder Brother would probably also tell Sandor that the Seven only allowed him to be healed/sent the miracle because they wanted Sandor to change his sinful ways and repent...

So cannot you not see how Sandor is ripe for religious conversion and redemption?

[FacelessGirl]

You cant rule anything out with GRRM, not after Bran, Rickon, Catelyn, Dondarrion, Aegon etc etc etc and we all know how tricksy he is with language.

the Hound is dead, Sandor is at rest.

This.

[clover]

Any doctors, nurses, surgeons, healers, or medical technicians in the house?

Anyway...

I just gleaned some stuff and was just subjected to some awful images but I checked out "sepsis" and "gangrene."

Interesting statistics on survival. Also, gangrene has like 10 different types.

I am sure time before treatment, how deep the wound was, health, weight, all factor in.

The treatments were interesting too. Cutting out the wound, cleansing, alcohol, herbal remedies, there is hope.

And yes, the door is open for some type of magic too.

JK Rowling made a few rules clear. "dead is dead." There is no reversal of avada.

This is not that world. Martin has established there is magic, some characters have special abilities, and some do come back from the dead, some has mistaken identities.

I think the prognoses is good for the Hound. Way too many loopholes for potential survival.

And many people just have enough, or have a change of heart, or have epiphanies, and change their deeds, their outlook, or even major changes to their life and their outlook, and their actions.

Sansa, I believe, was his catalyst. Also, I think he had enough of life in the KL.

He can change and still be himself deep down. If he cut out his baggage and left if behind with his helm, the possibilites are endless.

[Fredward]

haa?

that was a total fail lol whatever you just said had no logic or fact. :D

Golly you're right. I am a moron and I regret ever entering an "intelligent" discussion with you, good ser. Please forgive any offense I have caused you in my idiocy and please continue regaling us with your well reasoned and thought provoking arguments. :)