Sandor V.16

[clover]

The wound kind of forced him to "yield" to everything. I got a chill when she was getting beaten and he risked a lot by saying "enough."

Some people don't know what enough is until they hit rockbottom.

And once you hit the bottom there is nowhere to go but up.

[voodooqueen126]

How is that irrvelevant? He's a perfect example of someone changed by religion without the use of "magic".

Technically Sandor is not a monk, he was saved phyiscally and spiritually by one. Something his soul clearly needed.

Sandor would technically be a Postulant at this stage.

The Quiet Isle is the equivalent of these dudes:

[clover]

And then there is my cut to the chase response.

If we can see things like Melisandre giving birth to a magical black magic baby shadow assassin.

I think a fucking leg wound can be healed.

[Solaris]

This.

Okay if you insist

rest ¹    [rest] noun

1.

the refreshing quiet or repose of sleep: a good night's rest.

2.

refreshing ease or inactivity after exertion or labor: to allow an hour for rest.

3.

relief or freedom, especially from anything that wearies, troubles, or disturbs.

4.

a period or interval of inactivity, repose, solitude, or tranquillity: to go away for a rest.

5.

mental or spiritual calm; tranquillity.

I wish you would have more faith in GRRM's skill with language. Geepers. I understand that in a modern sense LAID TO REST means dead and buried. However the Brotha says Sandor is at rest. It means taking a nap cuz.

[FacelessGirl]

Okay if you insist

rest

¹    [rest] noun

1.

the refreshing quiet or repose of sleep: a good night's rest.

2.

refreshing ease or inactivity after exertion or labor: to allow an hour for rest.

3.

relief or freedom, especially from anything that wearies, troubles, or disturbs.

4.

a period or interval of inactivity, repose, solitude, or tranquillity: to go away for a rest.

5.

mental or spiritual calm; tranquillity.

I wish you would have more faith in GRRM's skill with language. Geepers.

LOL I was agreeing with you when I wrote that, relax. :P

[Solaris]

And then there is my cut to the chase response.

If we can see things like Melisandre giving birth to a magical black magic baby shadow assassin.

I think a fucking leg wound can be healed.

Gold! lol

[voodooqueen126]

And then there is my cut to the chase response.

If we can see things like Melisandre giving birth to a magical black magic baby shadow assassin.

I think a fucking leg wound can be healed.

More relevantly, if Theon can survive being castrated in the filthy dungeons of the Dreadfort (considering 1 out of 5 sudanese eunuchs died in much dryer conditions) then Sandor can certainly survive a leg wound with access to Westeros's greatest healer.

[Solaris]

LOL I was agreeing with you when I wrote that, relax. :P

I didn't mean to come off snappy. Sorry. :cool4: I shall endeavour to use mi faces more frequent like.

[FacelessGirl]

I didn't mean to come off snappy. Sorry. :cool4: I shall endeavour to use mi faces more frequent like.

No problem, but I still loved that post. ;)

[R & R]

Meh, Sandor's was a mere flesh wound.

[Solaris]

Well I suggest the next POV arc needs to include a scene were we get to count in detail all of his mere flesh wounds.

[1234567]

Anyone see any kind of link between Sandors helm and Gendrys helm?

In a woobiefied version of ASOIAF I would like Gendry to make a new Helm for the Hound. :)

However within the story, it would be interesting to see if there is more of a link between Gendry and Sandor. Certainly Sandor's trial was the reason Gendry decided to join the BWB and by extension worship R'hllor.

[zalim]

You cant rule anything out with GRRM, not after Bran, Rickon, Catelyn, Dondarrion, Aegon etc etc etc and we all know how tricksy he is with language.

the Hound is dead, Sandor is at rest. Until I see a corpse I am not convinced and even then we saw Catelyns corpse and she still refluxed.

lol as i said i am not going to rule out this theory after seeing such a devotion :D

Well, we haven't seen the Seven having any power, but it is possible that the reason the Elder Brother on the Quiet Isle is able to heal people that Maester's cannot is that he receives divine intervention, aka a miracle, which would tie with Thoros of Myr's point that "R'hllor still has a purpose for him"

Significantly this healing comes from the moral deities (the Seven), rather than immoral deities like R'hllor (the healing that Victarion received).

But generally a natural healing is assumed, since he limps (where as presumably a miracle or divine intervention would heal perfectly).

He is a large man, very healthy and very strong, which helps.

From the scene on the battle of the blackwater, (which is after Sandor has been shown up and shamed by Tyrion and is surrounded by fire, which Sandor fears. Which is when Sandor leaves the Lannisters, this is the beginning of Sandor's breakdown, but also the beginning of the death of the Hound and the beginning Sandor's redemption (when Sansa touches his cheek, which ties into Dante's notion that the love of a pure woman will inspire a man to be a better person), since by leaving the service of the Lannisters (an abusive bunch of creepes who encourage his hated brother), he takes himself out of the company of evil men.

When we next see Sandor it is through Arya's POV, and is his fight with Beric. he is drunk but still wants to live, but certainly he is not taking very good care of his own life.

Then he kidnaps Arya to get a reward from Robb Stark. He also talks about his hopes and dreams: he wants a lordship and the chance to serve Robb and kill Gregor. Perhaps reading between the lines, he wants a chance to serve an honourable lord, who doesn't order him to kill children or call him things like Dog (he specifically says that he got sick of being kicked).

Then the Red Wedding happens and Sandor loses his remaining hope of service to the Starks, but he still looks after Arya, even though she no longer has any financial value. He is drinking constantly if I remember correctly.

Then he hears of Sansa's marriage to a deformed and disgusting man who had previously humiliated him (and Sandor seems to have long disliked Tyrion anyway) who is also known to visit whores obsessively (the equivalent in our world and day and age to a guy who has a huge collection of kinky or violent pornography) and whom Sandor probably knows had his previous wife gang raped....

It is then that Sandor loses hope. although he still continues on fighting (despite being drunk)

So he has been sinking lower and lower since the Battle of the Blackwater (which according to errant bard occured on the 22/10/299) but arguably the seeds for his redemption began earlier than that (on the day when Sansa tells him he is and awful man and going to hell, although the Tourney of the Hand demonstrates that there is some good in Sandor even before then)...

And Arya leaves him to die on the 9/02/300... So Sandor has had nearly four months of sinking lower and lower before he hit rock bottom.

Brienne arrives at the Quiet Isle on the 8/04/300 so this gives Sandor 2 months to recover from an infected leg wound.

Now as for his character changes:

In this documentary/reality tv, 5 modern (and with the exception of one reasonably prosperous) british blokes spend 40 days in a Benedictine Monastery.

http://www.youtube.c...h?v=5TlIxgET_dk

by the end of those 40 days, guys who had not been raised in premodern, superstitious and religious society where changing their lives. None of these men were raised Catholic and yet living in a monastery for a mere 40 days had a huge effect on them....

Now Sandor was raised in the Faith of the Seven, it is also worth noting that Sandor was the 'hating god for being a failure atheist" rather than the indifference/not enough scientific proof atheist.

Sandor lives in a premodern society, where there is no science, no theory of evolution, there isn't even any philosophy like Epicurus to influence him...

He has served dishonourable and immoral people who cultivated evil people like his brother and they have ordered him to kill children (Mycah). Yet he has seen these evil people abuse a defenceless little girl, who was the only person who was nice to him.

Then over 4 months he slowly hits rock bottom, with out of control drinking and no future for him, the girl he loved lost to him forever.

Sounds ripe for religious conversion... A Christian Evangelists would have a heydey with Sandor...

and then Sandor is saved (possibly miraculously), but certainly the elder brother, in saving Sandor committed an act of extreme forgiveness (since Sandor had a horrible reputation) and totally undeserved mercy/good samaritism...

He then, as of the final Jaime chapter in ADWD (which is set roughly 6 months after the Red Wedding), has spent 4 months in the company of not mere Benedictines, but rather the Westerosi equivalent of these guys:

http://www.youtube.c...feature=related

Having hit rock bottom, then rescued, by someone who was himself much worse than Sandor (remember the Elder Brother was once a rapist), yet still had the miraculous ability to heal someone as badly wounded as himself (and a premodern person would see this as being a divine miracle rather than luck+strong constitution+medical skill) which a) shows that someone much worse than Sandor can be divinely favoured b)can also change from being a person much worse than Sandor to being a supremely merciful and good person.

He is then surrounded by extremely spiritual and gentle people (who live the ultimate religious ascetic life style), yet who share his life experience (they're all sinners on the quiet isle remember) and the EB seems actively invested in Sandor's salvation

The Elder Brother would probably also tell Sandor that the Seven only allowed him to be healed/sent the miracle because they wanted Sandor to change his sinful ways and repent...

So cannot you not see how Sandor is ripe for religious conversion and redemption?

Very nice,

I am not a Sandor fan but

i have to say, that was very elegantly written

I understand your point of view much better now and i understand

why fans believe that he is alive and he has changed.

You are a true Sandor fan arent you?

Golly you're right. I am a moron and I regret ever entering an "intelligent" discussion with you, good ser. Please forgive any offense I have caused you in my idiocy and please continue regaling us with your well reasoned and thought provoking arguments. :)

aww dont feel bad about yourself ! its okay !

[Solaris]

In a woobiefied version of ASOIAF I would like Gendry to make a new Helm for the Hound. :)

However within the story, it would be interesting to see if there is more of a link between Gendry and Sandor. Certainly Sandor's trial was the reason Gendry decided to join the BWB and by extension worship R'hllor.

That would be a very nice feel good moment wouldn't it. Perhaps Sandor will find Gendry and he will make him brand spanking new shiney gold armor. Maybe Sandor is the bright fantastic vision of the maid with the serpent hair and not Jamie as first thought?

NOTE - Pretend I didn't say that I am exhausted from all my crackpot theories and I cant be arsed digging up the prophecy right now

[voodooqueen126]

lol as i said i am not going to rule out this theory after seeing such a devotion :D Very nice, I am not a Sandor fan but i have to say, that was very elegantly written I understand your point of view much better now and i understand why fans believe that he is alive and he has changed. You are a true Sandor fan arent you?

Thankyou, I am glad it made sense. I should just like to say I like Sansa more, and indeed only like Sandor because she likes him... It is Sansa's love (which Sandor in no way deserves, since he was often rude to her) for Sandor (who is an awful sinful person who murdered a child and laughed about afterwards) that begins the process that leads towards his salvation.

This can be compared to the Christian idea that the love of God (and therefore his forgiveness of our sins) is a free gift (grace) that sinful humanity does not deserve, but God freely gives anyway. My Anglican youth group leader explained to me that even so, because we love God in turn, we do good things and obey God's laws, because this makes God happy. He even used the example that, if you have a boyfriend or husband (or man has a girlfriend or wife) you do things for them that make them happy because you love them. Of course a Calvinist would say that, since salvation is predetermined, good works are symptom of the fact that one has already been saved (been awhile since I studied theology so i am hazy here).

This is all Protestant of course, so probably not true to the Middle Ages (the hey day for courtly love)...

but paraphrasing redcandle: courtly love espoused the idea that love for a woman and performing good deeds to earn her love could 'save' a man. the Church considered courtly love heresy because it encouraged the idea that salvation could be gotten from mortal love.

As salvation is only supposed to come from God.

So one could view that Sandor's redemptive acts (helping Arya sorta, digging graves, his eventual self sacrificing death fighting Ser Robert Strong) are a symptom of Sansa's love for him. But since Sansa is not God or a terrifyingly powerful warg... it would be more accurate to say that his redemptive acts are symptom of his love for Sansa, in that his love for her makes him want to be a better person.

However it is Sansa's love for Sandor that starts off this process of redemption: she confronts him with his sins before the battle (you're an awful man and you're going to hell), she then prays for him during the Blackwater, that night he comes to her room, possibly intendind to rape her (we don't know) and he snaps out of whatever the hell he was thinking of doing when she touches his face (symbolic of platonic love, acceptance and forgiveness) and sings the Mother's Hymn ( a song about love for a female type deity making the world a kinder place). He wanders around drunk for awhile and (sorta) cares for Arya, who is Sansa's little sister (and he refers to Arya as 'the younger sister" not "the Stark Girl" or "Lord Stark's daughter" but as "the little sister)...

Then he gets rescued by the Elder Brother (who was once a sinner worse than he) possibly miraculously, and has so far spent atleast 4 months with the Westerosi equivalent of the Cistercians. so where was I...

I would say that this if Sansa didn't reciprocate his feelings, I would find Sandor incredibly creepy (even with the love redemption arc). Yet it is Sansa (in her platonic love or compassion for him) who begins the process that leads to this redemption, and it is through his redemption and change of character that he has experienced since then (with Arya and especially on the Quiet Isle) and future acts of heroism on Sansa's behalf, well these good deeds would make him worthy of her physical love.

It is worth noting that in ASOS she already had physical feelings for him (the sexy dream) but if he appeared on the Gates of the Moon tomorrow*, he wouldn't be worthy of any such consumation, as he needs to repent more and perform a heroic dead on her behalf, in repentence for his often rude or creepy behaviour towards her in AGOT (breaking down Jeyne's door) and ACOK (his crack about her father's legs etc).

*if Kevan's final chapter in ADWD is approximately 7-8 months after the Red Wedding, then Sansa is still 13 anyway so that's gross.

Apparently (according to Loathsomewarg over at livejournal)during her class's discussion of the The Song of Roland, the issue of masculinity and the idea of traditional heroes came up. Somebody in the class mentioned a part in the text where the issue of religious acts in monasteries in comparison to religious acts on the battlefield comes up (for those of you who haven't read the Chanson, there's a bishop who helps Roland in the fight against the Saracens and the whole text can be seen as propaganda for the crusades), and the professor brought up the fact that apparantly in a lot of medieval romances and plays (she mentioned the William of Orange cycles specifically), there is an actual trope where the hero, and even sometimes the anti-hero, (*such as Sandor) ends up doing a stint in a monastery as a part of his journey to becoming the typical chivalrous romantic hero. So it's all very interesting.

[Lemon Cake]

I thought the Hound was dead as a doornail until I read that thread from Cosmic Maintenance Man now I just hope he doesn't become the next High Septon. ^_^

But... but... but think of how fabulous he would not look in that giant crystal headgear! It'd make him like 8 and half feet tall.

[voodooqueen126]

But... but... but think of how fabulous he would not look in that giant crystal headgear! It'd make him like 8 and half feet tall.

Or they could become the next Abelard and Heloise

Or St Francis and Saint Claire

[childofsummer]

I think he's still alive, because if he's not, his story arc wouldn't be complete. We are talking about a story that is crafted, not just a set of random events. GRRM has to have been making a point with this very complex character, and I don't think he has finished making it yet.

Even if you reject the idea of a religious conversion, I think there's still an excellent possibility that just being given compassion and acceptance helped diffuse his anger and allowed him to be "at rest" to heal. The idea that someone (Sansa, EB...even Arya, who dressed his wounds and stayed with him until he was trying to make her mad enough to kill him) might actually care about what happened to him was probably a fairly new one to him.

It's often harder to receive compassion than to give it, after all, especially for a self-reliant loner-type like the Hound. Since we've seen that he can give it, I won't be happy with his arc until we see him receiving it (well).

[Natalia Borgia]

I think Sandor lives. There is no evidence he is dead.

[Natalia Borgia]

Also again I will state that his brother is supposedly dead but there is UnGregor. And please if you don't like this thread go elsewhere. There are a LOT of Sandor fans and we are allowed to congregate without being mocked by other posters.