Lesbian Sex Encounters in Books...and Renly/Loras

[teemo]

I remember how Dany had some sexual relationship with her handmaid and Cersei with Taena. If these books were written for television, I would totally understand the point of them. Lesbian sex on television is always a good seller. But what was the purpose of it in the book? Was this common for bored and sexually frustrated nobility? Regardless of my sexual preferences, I have never just been bored with life and decided to try to sleep with my friend. And I'm assuming GRRM just didn't write them for attention. You're not going to read over an entire book in a series just for some brief lesbian sex scenes. And they're not really scenes either. I also wonder if HBO is going to incorporate them into the series. I would think YES, because it would most likely be hot, but I almost think no because they don't really have any significance and might seem really, really gratuitous and confusing (HBO loves it, hence why they added Loras/Renly in the series, but adding in random lesbian sex scenes from out of nowhere might look cheap, and HBO is anything but cheap [*usually*])

I guess Dany and Cersei were just bored out of their minds. Dany hadn't been with a man since Drago died and Cersei...well... um. I don't know. I also wondered why GRRM never gave us a closer look at Renly and Loras. It could have been very interesting to see more of what their relationship was like. Maybe he just didn't know how to write it. He's not that great of a romance writer, in my opinion (and that's not a bad thing), and he may especially not feel confident writing romance gay scenes (with or without sex).

Anyway...opinions?

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

I have no idea what was going through Dany's mind when she had her, uh, experimentation. But Cersei, I think she saw it as an extension of her power. That she could do sexual stuff with whomever she wanted, use and discard them, like Robert did. In AFFC, the funny thing about Cersei is that she ends up becoming a lot like Robert.

[Jem]

I think with both Dany and Cersei, their sex scenes with women were to show their 'power'. With Cersei, she is trying to emulate Robert and her 'fucking' Taena is her mimiking what Robert did to her. With Dany, it shows that she is so powerful she doesn't even need to masturbate herself, she has slaves to do it for her. Plus it is meant to emphasis her loneliness despite her rank and power.

[teemo]

I think with both Dany and Cersei, their sex scenes with women were to show their 'power'. With Cersei, she is trying to emulate Robert and her 'fucking' Taena is her mimiking what Robert did to her. With Dany, it shows that she is so powerful she doesn't even need to masturbate herself, she has slaves to do it for her. Plus it is meant to emphasis her loneliness despite her rank and power.

I understand why Cersei would be doing it out of power, but at that time Dany wasn't acting like a power crazed lunatic (if I recall correctly). Maybe a little, but to me it seems out of character for her to just start trying to screw her handmaid/friend out of a thirst for power.

[Jem]

I understand why Cersei would be doing it out of power, but at that time Dany wasn't acting like a power crazed lunatic (if I recall correctly). Maybe a little, but to me it seems out of character for her to just start trying to screw her handmaid/friend out of a thirst for power.

No, I am not saying she has a thirst for power. She just is powerful. Her needs are catered to, she has servants, she is important, people go out of their way to do things for her. The handmaid offered her services to Dany, Dany didn't demand them.

[Hear Us Roar]

she just wanted human comfort and her maids were there

[Dark14]

Dany was doing it to herself then her handmaid just kinda helped out.

[LiamBridge]

Maybe GRRM likes writing girl on girl scenes just as much as me and im sure alot of other guys enjoy reading them. :rolleyes:

[teemo]

Maybe GRRM likes writing girl on girl scenes just as much as me and im sure alot of other guys enjoy reading them. :rolleyes:

Well, I like reading them too (I tried to sort of subtly make that impression in my post). I just thought they were a little odd.

[TheHedgeWizard]

i think cersei was just expressing her power. she was proving to herself she can be just like a man in that regard and sleep with anyone. Dany's sexual encounter was probably more out of a need for comfort since she was still grieving and missing drogo.

[ServantOnIce]

I kind of wonder that myself, the Dany one I could see because she is a confused young woman but Cersei's just seemed a bit over the top even in the description, I guess it said they both were lonely so they needed some "loving" from someone they trusted which both turned out to be women.

Cersei is shown to mimic Robert with poor decisions, wanton whoring and in the end it leads to her imprisonment.

[Blood.of.my.Blood]

I don't think it was that odd in either case, less so with Dany. She was lonely and seeking comfort and didn't actually engage her maid but rather succumbed when she offered to help. She is pretty young and had only really just started to explore her sexuality when drogo died. She didn't have any young men with her at the time and i think basically was damn horny and in the dark her constant companion who was also a girl wouldn't haver seemed all that foreign.

Cersei i think was just acting on curiosity but it wasn't motivated by sexual attraction. If anything i think she was trying to dominate her friend as she had noticed she was younger and firmer physically and obviously submissive to her. She was acting out to see if she could relate to a mans perspective sexually.

[Jory]

Well, I like reading them too (I tried to sort of subtly make that impression in my post). I just thought they were a little odd.

I hate reading them, they're weird and I get a really strong "ooh hot lesbians" vibe, especially from the Dany sex scene which was just ridiculously pornographic.

[teemo]

Cersei i think was just acting on curiosity but it wasn't motivated by sexual attraction. If anything i think she was trying to dominate her friend as she had noticed she was younger and firmer physically and obviously submissive to her. She was acting out to see if she could relate to a mans perspective sexually.

Yeah, I just re-read it and you're totally right. She wanted to know what it was like being Robert and see if it would work out of curiousity, and then got bored quickly. Oh, and the wording of it really made it obvious that it didn't stem from sexual attraction.

[LadyoftheNorth72]

In a world/time when it was common practice for highborn girls to have bedmates (which was the case in real life as well), I would imagine that some experimentation was probably fairly common. *Most* highborn girls were pretty ignorant about what all was entailed in marriage duties, but that does not mean that they did not have curiousity when it came to their own maturing bodies. The practice of bedmates was in part to ensure virginity until marriage, and I would imagine the parents would rather have their daughters goofing around with each other, than finding some squire with whom to satisfy their curioisity. I will not be surprised if we see Sansa further shocked by Randa when it comes to being her new bedmate.

I saw Dany's experimentation as a simple need for physical release and human contact, no more. Cersei's encounter with Taena was definitely something uglier; a chance (from Cersei's viewpoint) to see what it had felt like to be Robert all those times when she was powerless to stop him from doing as he would. Although I think Taena may have had some genuine physical attraction to Cersei, I think from Cersei's end it was just an opportunity that presented itself: she was somewhat drunk, she trusted Taena as much as she ever trusts anyone, and she believed that Taena was loose morally and therefore sure to comply (Cersei thought of Taena, "you're all whores from the east, or something along those lines, when Taena confessed that she was not a virgin when she married). Which was almost hilariously but perfectly in-character hypocritical, considering that Cersei herself was quite well broken in prior to her own marriage.

As for why we do not see more of Renly/Loras' relationship, I guess it is probably because there was never really a POV to describe it; and they seem to have been much better at discretion in the books than they are shown in the HBO series (where it appears from LF's public insults that their relationship is rather well known, or at least suspected/gossiped about). Another bizarre departure from Book Renly that seems to present problems in his becoming this charismatic, easily adored, much followed and well married candidate for the throne.

[Revan Baratheon]

Maybe GRRM likes writing girl on girl scenes just as much as me and im sure alot of other guys enjoy reading them. :rolleyes:

Actually dude those scenes were quite disgusting to read about.

[Roose Seal]

I guess Dany and Cersei were just bored out of their minds. Dany hadn't been with a man since Drago died and Cersei...well... um. I don't know. I also wondered why GRRM never gave us a closer look at Renly and Loras.

Girl on girl is hot, it is known.

Guy on guy is icky, it is also known.

Straight men enjoying a lesbian sex scene is taken for granted. A woman enjoying gay sex scene will be considered a pervert.

The "there is no PoV for Renly and Loras, therefore no gay sex" excuse is bullshit. If Cersei and Dany turned to lesbian sex out of nowhere (apparently boredom and horniness can turn you gay, even if you've been straight for 40 years, sure whatever), why couldn't a male PoV who's been straight so far turn to experimentation as well out of boredom ?

I'm pretty sure Jon got horny quite a few times on the Wall before Ygritte and he didn't visit the brothel... It's not like teenage boys in a boy-only environment experimenting with each other is unheard of either, is it ?

You can invoke plot reasons or character development or some other bullshit noble justification for it, but truthfully, the only reason we have lesbian scenes is because GRRM is a man and most of his readers are male. As a corollary, the only reason we don't have man on man action is because most readers are prejudiced and will think it's icky (those same readers will probably enjoy the lesbian scenes immensely.)

Aaah the joyous world of Double Standards.

[Really old griff]

Dany was 14/15 at the time of her scene. You'd be hard pressed to find a teenage girl nowadays who hasn't kissed another girl! (ok Dany goes a little bit further then kissing! But she did lose her virginity at 13 so, so I suppose she'd be more sexualised anyway) So it makes perfect sense that she'd be exploring her sexuality at that age. Especally since she seems like the most liberated woman in the series.

Cersei = big case of penis envy.

lack of gay scenes... I'm guessing its because GRRM is straight.

[Chronicler]

Well, there was lesbian scenes in the series...I would say that scene were Rose and another prostitute kiss and grab each other in front of Littlefinger could constitute a lesbian scene.

[Blood.of.my.Blood]

Dannister - yeah that scene with Cersei is quite disturbing really. The total lack of care, using another woman with total indifference about what she's doing! And the whole fantasising that she is a boar forcing her friend on her tusks? Shades of American psycho lol

To whoever said Dany scene was "pornographic" . . Are you serious? It was pretty tame imo . . Just a bit of hand action, unless im forgetting something. i found it a bit uncomfortable from the perspective that her hand maid had previously shown no interest in girls but noticing her lady going at it offered herself up. Imagining that level of servitude bothers me.

I must be so silly to have missed the whole Renly\Loras thing. . I haven't seen the show yet though. Is there even any pointed hints in the novel? Or are we just reading between the lines?