Stannis is the One True King

[MtnLion]

You're making my point for me. Jon knows all about about winter (he's half Stark). By the way, the war with the Others cannot be won without Dany and her dragons. Remember that.

As far as we know the Targaryens brought the first dragons to Westeros, about 300 years ago. The ordignal war for the dawn was some 10,000 years ago, and apparently was won without the use of dragons. So, I am not as certain that this war for the dawn cannot be won without dragons.

[Knight errant]

I'm glad you know GRRM's mind. I guess it will save us the final two books. Three potential Targ Rulers. One will make it. Just accept it. Even if Jon and Dany fall (not likely) Aegon is at the ready (real or not). There are many ways to have a melancholy ending. There can be plenty of death and destruction, but Dany or Jon or Aegon can still take the throne.

Jon can be released from his vows. A small council decree and several replacements from the dungeons would serve. If Jon is dead and revived, that should work as well. He served until death. Will he leave is another question entirely.

Stop the Dany hate. Up until Meereen, there has not been a stronger you woman except Arya. She was sold to Drogo and had her innocence taken away. She lost her child and is likely barren. She has been betrayed at every turn. But she is the first Targaryen in over a hundred years to hatch dragons. She is ending slavery in Essos. She has commanded troops in battle and inspired loyalty for a multitude of people. Ser Barristan loves her (thats enough for me).

As I said, someone mentioned a quote he gave on his plans for the end, as he already knows the basic outline herp, derp. Currently, 5 rulers, 10 potentials if we include bastards and only one bastard knows his parentage, it isn't Jon so I don't see how Jon will magically rise to be king and when. Please do explain how this will happen? This is my point, there is no logical reason from what has happened in the books to assume Jon will ever be king, that is too fairy tale for this series unless he's a huge sellout.

Jon can be released from his Vows mayhaps , I suppose but it's iffy, until his death but if he's brought back to life does it really count as a death and what would he do, still unaware of his parentage?

Why should I stop it when she's the character most deserved of it? Up until recently she was consistently one of the most boring characters. Oooo boo hoo, her innocence was stolen? Rough, not like any other character in this series most characters have equally bad if not worse backgrounds. Oooo Barren too? Well doubly sad I better just hope she ends up as the most influenctial person in a contienant, she clearly has the perfect condition and state of mind to rule. What about Tyrion? Or Clegane? Or Arya? Or Bran? Even Stannis has endured more shit than her and he's a more capable ruler than her as we've seen. Just because his background is bad does not mean she knows the first thing about leadership. She is rarely betrayed and is constantly met by people who would give her the world/ adore her - If only for her dragons which is the main reason she achieves anything. She didn't hatch them, don't make it seem like some great skill on her part she lucked out where she should've burnt to death. She didn't command troops, she suggested a plan which Barristan, Greyworm and Jorah actually commanded. Unless she commanded from sitting in a tent doing nothing? "Inspired loyalty"..."Betrayed at every turn" , bit contradicting, which is it then? Oh that's right, the first. For no reason. If Barristan thought there were other Targs he would've gone to them. She got lucky that she was the only active one at the time. Barristan is made to serve and he would've served any targ, believing their claim. I wonder who he will serve when he finds his actual king is still alive?

She is destroying entire cities and caused the annihilation of a town with the genocide of it's people. She orders a massacre based on the city people are in. "Kill every one in a tokar"... The whole population wear tokars, all free men woman and children, whatever their ambitions, jobs and moral opinions are all killed by her unsullied. That is the order she gives, they are finished off by Yunkai. Destroyed Meereens economy and if she leaves now it'll be a wasteland. She destroyed anothers culture based on her own opinions (I agree with her but the point still stands). She's also a hypocrite. She'll return to Westeros alright with Fire and blood but how many people will want her there? Also D-a-r-r-i-o Narris. Goddamn, she bangs a random dude, no drawbacks. Robb bangs a random chick, everything ruined for everyone. She has so much plot armor it makes her chapters not enjoyable.

None of this is a good reason for why she should rule and if she is Barren the Targs are finished. Unless Aegon is the real deal, Jon doesn't look like a targ so if he procreates it will be with a non targ and almost certainly the Stark looks will dominate or the other families so there you go, no more Targ look.

[Stallion That Mounts Texas]

Sworn enemy? A guy who hasn't done anything for the entire time you've been alive. By that point half the realm is Robbs enemy. Balon was a potential ally had the man not been an idiot the plan would've worked. Sending Theon was a mistake but from Robbs point of view there isn't a reason to see why it wouldn't work. How can he expect Balon to act? Or Theon to fuck up? He can't, can he. Once again, it's a double standard. Jon only says Roose wasn't trusted once his betrayal is clear...Good detective work there.

Jon has no claims while these others exist and logically no one will support his claim. It's not the Targs themselves then, it's chance. There have been as many good targs as bad (In fact more bad than good) so really, they have no particular right over anyone else or skill in ruling. Robert beggared the realm as opposed to the Targs who did just as bad multiple times. He only beggared the crown moreover, the small folk don't care they had many years of peace with him. More years of peace with him than the Mad king. It doesn't matter if she didn't love him - which we don't know - But she was betrothed to him AND Rhaegar was married, scumbag then - he caused the war through his own vanity and fathers insanity. You may flaunt that he thought he was the PTWP but that's just brutally arrogant. When they work they work, but when they don't they're worse than most. Rhaegar deserved his fate and the fate brought upon his dynasty. As did Aegon, they shouldn't have been so moronic.

Targ restoration hangs on a knife edge. You may recall 5 out of seven kingdoms did not aid them in their fall and if Dany takes over will be put to the torch for "Vengeance" in south defense. Yes the Ironfleets with her but will that Alienate the Tyrells? Yes indeedy. Her biggest Ally = gone when she shows up leading a fleet of Tyrell enemies. The Lannisters are done, the Tyrells are fine. The reach is unlikely to split because there aren't any secret conspiracies. *Rolls eyes* I'll believe there are when I read it or when sufficient evidence is given, everyone quotes Tarly winning a battle but so what? Doesn't mean a goddamn thing. He'll unite the stormlands, a spent force and Dorne a small force. Dany will win at Meereen fighting slavers, so ? I could've told you that three books ago. That isn't Stannis though , is it? Stannis and his army are preparing for a great victory in the North. It all comes down to Sansa/littlefinger. Once Rickon appears alive his plan is a little shot so who will he swear for or will he even get the chance? It comes down to him really, as he has one of the largest troop bases left. There are always sellswords for higher. He will find some. Moreover once the North is won he'll have another 10/20 k there AND if he pushes south (Likely) the riverlands and quite possibly the Vale will side with him giving him something like 75 k men. Lannisters are gone, Tyrells are fighting on two fronts and BAMF Stannis now is poised to take KL from whatever fool holds it - if he wins the battle of winterfell. "She need only return" That's a long way off. Will she even let Aegon live? I doubt it. We have seen how callous she can be. I doubt for a second if he says he's king she'll let him go. She doesn't even know what happened when her dynasty was dethroned so I cannot see her bringing the justice needed to correct the realm.

Ned told Cat to keep a close watch on Theon b/c he may need the Greyjoy fleet. Cat knew not to send Theon. The concept of leverage is not a hard one to figure out. You don't give up the one advantage you have in securing an uneasy alliance. Additionally, look at the logistics. You have taken the best part of your fighting men South, leaving your kingdom open for an all out assault by a nearby foe (ironmen reave and rape naturally). You really need to re-read and carefully. Jon informs us that Ned (never!!!) trusted Roose Bolton at any point, even though Roose had never given him cause. The reason is clear. You never completely trust the number two house in the region. Tywin knew this and dealt with the Reynes. The Tully's had the Freys. The Martells have the Yronwoods. The Arryns have the Royce's. The Targaryens had the Blackfyres. The Boltons warred with the Starks for thousands of years and raised several rebellions. Not hard to figure out genius.

My friend there has pretty much always been a stable Targaryen government in place. There was the conquest itself, the "Dance of the Dragons," Daemon Blackfyre, and the War of the Ninepenny Kings. Really that only three wars in 300 hundred years (not counting the War of the Usurper). Aerys for all of his faults left a treasury overflowing with gold. You have no evidence of the Targs ever beggaring the realm. All you know is that they fought a few wars. Your analysis of Targaryen rule is as clouded and empty as the rest of your argument.

I have made it clear that Jon's claim on the realm is contingent on several factors. Aegon not being legit. Dany legitimizing him. He is Robbs official heir by decree, although he will never keep that from Rickon. He actually wants to have a claim. I stand by my argument that once his true parentage is revealed, he will get tremendous support.

Robert gave the kingdom nothing but bad debt and his bastards. He made the crown a bitch to Tywin, the Tyrells, the Faith and to many others. He allowed Little Finger and Varys to accumulate extraordinary power from their respective positions. He didn't even know his wife was shagging her brother right under his nose and none of his three kids are his (long live House Baratheon!!!). One of the first orders of business should be extinguishing the house it created.

You really need to re-read before making these arguments. Its true the North, the Vale, the Riverlands, and the Stormlands officially followed their overlords into rebellion. But upon careful reading you will note that the Vale, Riverlands and Stormlands were bitterly divided and fiercely before rebel forces could be joined. Lord Hoster Tully, Lord Jon Arryn, and Robert all had to fight many of their own bannermen before they even begin to fight Aerys. The North really had to rise up given what happened to Lord Stark, his heir, and the other high born Northmen. Tywin did not act b/c of personal slights against him by Aerys. Tywin held out hope that Aerys would have no choice but to summon him to action and give him huge concessions (Jaime back, marriage for Cersei, etc). He still had the numbers from his many loyalists. The rebels simply had better leadership in the field and the death of Rhaegar on their side. The war was never a slam dunk like you make is sound. The rebellions within the kingdoms before the actual war is proof of Targaryen respect. Had Aerys had any sense at all, the war still cold have been won despite the death of Rhaegar.

This is incredible. The Tyrells are far from fine. Lets start with the probability that their realm is likely teeming with Targaryn loyalists (one of the most loyal realms to the Targaryen Dynasty). Their fleet and reserve forces are being drawn off to face the ironborn. God help them if Euron's forces win at sea (a strong possibility). They must send an army to deal with Aegon and the GC in the Stormlands. They are relying on a bastard to hold onto the throne. The Tyrells are anyting but fine. They must tread very carefully are face extinction.

[Stallion That Mounts Texas]

As far as we know the Targaryens brought the first dragons to Westeros, about 300 years ago. The ordignal war for the dawn was some 10,000 years ago, and apparently was won without the use of dragons. So, I am not as certain that this war for the dawn cannot be won without dragons.

You are looking at the situation then. I am looking at it now. 10,000 years ago there was more belief and knowledge of the mystical creatures of the world. We know that fire and dragon glass Obsidian) can hurt the Others. Not much else that we know of. Not much dragon glass lying around. Additionally, a lot of manpower has been spent and is still being spent on the War for the Iron Throne. If not Dany and her levies, where will the strength to fight the Others come from. Given that prophecy seems to heavily favor Dany's and involvement and Archmaester Marwyn (love this guy) is on his way to her, it seems a pretty good bet that Dany (and the dragons) are essential to winning this thing.

[MtnLion]

You are looking at the situation then. I am looking at it now. 10,000 years ago there was more belief and knowledge of the mystical creatures of the world. We know that fire and dragon glass Obsidian) can hurt the Others. Not much else that we know of. Not much dragon glass lying around. Additionally, a lot of manpower has been spent and is still being spent on the War for the Iron Throne. If not Dany and her levies, where will the strength to fight the Others come from. Given that prophecy seems to heavily favor Dany's and involvement and Archmaester Marwyn (love this guy) is on his way to her, it seems a pretty good bet that Dany (and the dragons) are essential to winning this thing.

On the other hand, perhaps the Others are a threat simply because there are dragons in the world, once again. The dragons may play a part, but I am not certain that they will be of much use when an Other is in the vicinity, since they bring darkness and cold. I do not believe that Daenerys will be smart enough to do the right thing, especially since she has such a poor track record. She has always struck me as shallow and naive.

[Stallion That Mounts Texas]

On the other hand, perhaps the Others are a threat simply because there are dragons in the world, once again. The dragons may play a part, but I am not certain that they will be of much use when an Other is in the vicinity, since they bring darkness and cold. I do not believe that Daenerys will be smart enough to do the right thing, especially since she has such a poor track record. She has always struck me as shallow and naive.

Going back to the AGOT prologue, the Others were already in business well before the dragons were hatched. Some magic is likely tied to the dragons, but the Others are an independent race. You can't see the value of fire breathing dragons against creature of cold and ice?

Prior to ADWD, Dany was the strongest young female character other than maybe Arya. After Meereen, she could have taken her gold and army and simply set sail for Westeros. But she chose to stay and rule for the good of the people. Its not part of life that she is facing an insurrection from a fallen city. She has won battles, plotted strategy, learned to read people and situations, freed slaves, and inspired an entire culture. Cmon, stop the hate.

[Lady Tippy Wolfsbane]

As far as we know the Targaryens brought the first dragons to Westeros, about 300 years ago. The ordignal war for the dawn was some 10,000 years ago, and apparently was won without the use of dragons. So, I am not as certain that this war for the dawn cannot be won without dragons.

To be fair,

GRRM has stated that dragons were once everywhere and we don't know if dragons weren't used during the Long Night. Personally, I believe they were but I've decided to wait and see what is revealed to us in the future novels.

The fact that the Others are defeated by "dragonglass" and "dragonsteel" means something to me.

[By the Old Gods Not theNew]

My friend there has pretty much always been a stable Targaryen government in place. There was the conquest itself, the "Dance of the Dragons," Daemon Blackfyre, and the War of the Ninepenny Kings. Really that only three wars in 300 hundred years (not counting the War of the Usurper). Aerys for all of his faults left a treasury overflowing with gold. You have no evidence of the Targs ever beggaring the realm. All you know is that they fought a few wars. Your analysis of Targaryen rule is as clouded and empty as the rest of your argument.

Touche, you seem to have forgotten the following: the Faith rebelled against the Targ's, Dorne refused to bend the knee and even after being conquered they still rose up and killed Daeron I, 40,000 men at arms, and the Tyrell steward left in charge of Dorne; Dagon Greyjoy rebelled; Unknown Lords rebelled and killed Maekar; Outlaw bands disrupted the King's peace to such a degree at times they would have to dispatch relatively large hosts to deal w/ them; Numerous conflicts between houses raged during the Targ dynasty, and some like the conflict between the Martells and the Tyrells were exacerbated by the Targ's. Each conflict between houses represents a violation of the King's peace. So when the Boltons tried to unseat the Starks as lard paramount in the north they violated the King's peace. The fact that the Starks apparently dealt w/ the Boltons w/out Targ help indicates that the Targ's were not necessarily keeping the peace and or the realm together they were instead relying on vassals to keep a tenuous realm intact.

Where do you think that gold came from? It was taken in the form of taxation form the rest of the Seven Kingdoms (really it's taken from the smallfolk). Which is really just a form of legitimized begging. "Give me money cause im your king/lord" is just a shitty argument justifying handouts for to those who already have too much. The Targs (and any royal family for that matter) are glorified beggars. They extract money form people w/out having to do anything accept claim that they're special. So if you want evidence that the Targs beggared the realm look at your own argument that the treasury was overflowing w/ gold.

[Stallion That Mounts Texas]

Touche, you seem to have forgotten the following: the Faith rebelled against the Targ's, Dorne refused to bend the knee and even after being conquered they still rose up and killed Daeron I, 40,000 men at arms, and the Tyrell steward left in charge of Dorne; Dagon Greyjoy rebelled; Unknown Lords rebelled and killed Maekar; Outlaw bands disrupted the King's peace to such a degree at times they would have to dispatch relatively large hosts to deal w/ them; Numerous conflicts between houses raged during the Targ dynasty, and some like the conflict between the Martells and the Tyrells were exacerbated by the Targ's. Each conflict between houses represents a violation of the King's peace. So when the Boltons tried to unseat the Starks as lard paramount in the north they violated the King's peace. The fact that the Starks apparently dealt w/ the Boltons w/out Targ help indicates that the Targ's were not necessarily keeping the peace and or the realm together they were instead relying on vassals to keep a tenuous realm intact.

Where do you think that gold came from? It was taken in the form of taxation form the rest of the Seven Kingdoms (really it's taken from the smallfolk). Which is really just a form of legitimized begging. "Give me money cause im your king/lord" is just a shitty argument justifying handouts for to those who already have too much. The Targs (and any royal family for that matter) are glorified beggars. They extract money form people w/out having to do anything accept claim that they're special. So if you want evidence that the Targs beggared the realm look at your own argument that the treasury was overflowing w/ gold.

Oh very good, it the heat of my arguments I did fail to mention these (little events). However, none of the aforementioned conflicts threatened the stability of the entire realm. Furthermore, a few small points: The Faith militant rose very early into the Targaryen Dynasty. This was actually a good thing as King Jaehaerys was able to finish what King Maegar started and strip the Faith of its martial ability. Dorne was soon after brought into the realm through peaceful means (marriage). Numerous conflicts do come about from time to time, between the Houses. Thats exactly why Aegon I named ruling houses for each region/kingdom of Westeros. So he did not have to personally attend to every minor dispute. The Kingswood Brotherhood did rise into prominence. So Aerys sent Arthur Dayne to break it and he did just that. The Targaryens put in a beautiful system that provided a stable central government for 300 years. Had it not been for the madness of Aerys, the Targaryens would be in another golden age, with Rhaegar as king. The system even survived Targaryen exile. No system is perfect. There will always be crime and conflict that occur in violation of cultural norms. The question is whether the established form of government has some mechanism to deal the situations as they occur.

Taxes and revenue are all parts of government and fealty. I think the realm was in great shape prior to Robert Baratheon taking over. It was peaceful and everyone had plenty. I think the Seven Great Houses and their vassals did just fine under Targaryen taxation. You have no evidence to the contrary. Every great house taxes its vassals and the Targaryens in turn tax their vassals. Not to mention King's Landing is the largest harbor in the realm and is home to all kinds of industry. The Targaryens presided over peach and prosperity. Deal with it!!!

Long Live House Targaryen!!! Blood and Fire!!!! Targaryen Restoration Now!!!!

[MtnLion]

To be fair,

GRRM has stated that dragons were once everywhere and we don't know if dragons weren't used during the Long Night. Personally, I believe they were but I've decided to wait and see what is revealed to us in the future novels.

The fact that the Others are defeated by "dragonglass" and "dragonsteel" means something to me.

Agree with your last, but we have no idea what dragonsteel is. However, we do know that the Other did not retreat in fear from Grenn when he advanced with his flaming torch. It is just possible that the Others hate the fire, but do not fear it. That would make dragon fire of questionable significance in fighting the Others, while it might be fun with the wights.

If a dragon had been involved in the war for the dawn, and it had been responsible for any positive advantage, I believe that it would have made an appearance in the tales. At least the tales describe the Others and their beasts in great detail. The describe the last hero and his sword in some detail, too. Alas, no dragon, dragonglass, or dragonsteel until Sam discovers the latter two in the archives.

[Stallion That Mounts Texas]

Agree with your last, but we have no idea what dragonsteel is. However, we do know that the Other did not retreat in fear from Grenn when he advanced with his flaming torch. It is just possible that the Others hate the fire, but do not fear it. That would make dragon fire of questionable significance in fighting the Others, while it might be fun with the wights.

If a dragon had been involved in the war for the dawn, and it had been responsible for any positive advantage, I believe that it would have made an appearance in the tales. At least the tales describe the Others and their beasts in great detail. The describe the last hero and his sword in some detail, too. Alas, no dragon, dragonglass, or dragonsteel until Sam discovers the latter two in the archives.

Its been said Valyrian Steel = Dragonsteel

[MtnLion]

Its been said Valyrian Steel = Dragonsteel

It has been said, but there is no proof. We just know that any steel used against the Others just shatters.

[Lady Tippy Wolfsbane]

Agree with your last, but we have no idea what dragonsteel is.

Exactly, that's my point. We have no idea what it is so it's fair to assume that it is somehow related to dragons.

However, we do know that the Other did not retreat in fear from Grenn when he advanced with his flaming torch. It is just possible that the Others hate the fire, but do not fear it.

From that scene we know that the Other quickly distinguished the fire by cutting the torch in half with its blade. The Other did not get close to the fire, nor did it come in contact with the fire. We also know that when the Other's blade touched the fire it made a very strange sound. This leads me to believe that fire has some effect on the Others. Also, there is a quantifiable difference between a flaming torch and dragon fire, as illustrated by the text.

That would make dragon fire of questionable significance in fighting the Others, while it might be fun with the wights.

It may be questionable, but should not be dismissed. It would totally demolish the wights. :)

If a dragon had been involved in the war for the dawn, and it had been responsible for any positive advantage, I believe that it would have made an appearance in the tales.

I believe that they have...just not explicitly in the tales we have heard or the texts we have seen.

At least the tales describe the Others and their beasts in great detail. The describe the last hero and his sword in some detail, too. Alas, no dragon, dragonglass, or dragonsteel until Sam discovers the latter two in the archives.

And there is probably more in the archives.

[By the Old Gods Not theNew]

Oh very good, it the heat of my arguments I did fail to mention these (little events). However, none of the aforementioned conflicts threatened the stability of the entire realm. Furthermore, a few small points: The Faith militant rose very early into the Targaryen Dynasty. This was actually a good thing as King Jaehaerys was able to finish what King Maegar started and strip the Faith of its martial ability. Dorne was soon after brought into the realm through peaceful means (marriage). Numerous conflicts do come about from time to time, between the Houses. Thats exactly why Aegon I named ruling houses for each region/kingdom of Westeros. So he did not have to personally attend to every minor dispute. The Kingswood Brotherhood did rise into prominence. So Aerys sent Arthur Dayne to break it and he did just that. The Targaryens put in a beautiful system that provided a stable central government for 300 years. Had it not been for the madness of Aerys, the Targaryens would be in another golden age, with Rhaegar as king. The system even survived Targaryen exile. No system is perfect. There will always be crime and conflict that occur in violation of cultural norms. The question is whether the established form of government has some mechanism to deal the situations as they occur.

Taxes and revenue are all parts of government and fealty. I think the realm was in great shape prior to Robert Baratheon taking over. It was peaceful and everyone had plenty. I think the Seven Great Houses and their vassals did just fine under Targaryen taxation. You have no evidence to the contrary. Every great house taxes its vassals and the Targaryens in turn tax their vassals. Not to mention King's Landing is the largest harbor in the realm and is home to all kinds of industry. The Targaryens presided over peach and prosperity. Deal with it!!!

Long Live House Targaryen!!! Blood and Fire!!!! Targaryen Restoration Now!!!!

These were not "little events." Given that we know about these events hundreds of years after they happened and that GRRM has seen fit to highlight them in the current text it seems their all of some import. The Faith Militant certainly posed a threat to the realm, had King Jaehaerys not abandoned King Maegar the Cruel's policy of persecuting the Faith the Targ's may well have lost the faith and the legitimacy it lent to Targ rule. Dorne was first unsuccessfully brought into the realm by conquest...as i said. The marriage pact between the Targs and Martells didn't happen until after the conquest and uprising, and it was also one of the primiary causes of the Blackfyre rebellion, so there's that. Conflicts that place great houses at risk are not small events nor are they signs of a stable political climate (ie the Bolton and Stark conflicts, or the Bael the Bard vs. the Starks) it's a sign of ongoing strife and instability.

The relative degree of strife doesn't really matter to me. My point is that Targ rule was not as beautiful as you propose. There was conflict there was lots of bad shit that's associated with authoritarian hierarchical structures of domination. If you think of the Targ dynasty as beautiful you have to account for the fact that the actions of the Mad King were perfectly in line w/ Targ rule under an absolutist monarchy. The King can burn people to death, He's the King. He can rape and beat his sister/wife, He's the King. The power of an absolute monarch sucks. It was the Targ system that resulted in Robert Baratheon taking over as King.

The wildlings pay no taxes. Taxes are for kneelers. Targ's presided over some peach and some prosperity. They also presided over famine and pestilence. Deal with them apples.

Long Live the Mance and the Freefolk...i guess.

[STANN1SBARATHEON]

you mean long live Kong Stannis!

[By the Old Gods Not theNew]

yeah he can be the Kong, Mance is my king.

[STANN1SBARATHEON]

i thought Kong Stannis was funnier than Stannis Kong

[Black Crow]

Agree with your last, but we have no idea what dragonsteel is. However, we do know that the Other did not retreat in fear from Grenn when he advanced with his flaming torch. It is just possible that the Others hate the fire, but do not fear it. That would make dragon fire of questionable significance in fighting the Others, while it might be fun with the wights.

If a dragon had been involved in the war for the dawn, and it had been responsible for any positive advantage, I believe that it would have made an appearance in the tales. At least the tales describe the Others and their beasts in great detail. The describe the last hero and his sword in some detail, too. Alas, no dragon, dragonglass, or dragonsteel until Sam discovers the latter two in the archives.

Agreed.

First as to fire; Sam says that according to the stories he found, fire "daunts" the Others, which suggests that they avoid it, but its not as affective as dragonglass

Secondly as to dragonsteel, Jon immediately made the connection to Valyrian steel. There's an obvious problem with this in that the Valyrian empire and its steel arose long after the supposed defeat of the Others at the end of the Long Night, but that objection disappears in the light of the evidence for the Others being around north of the Wall since then.

That being said, its possible that dragonsteel and ordinary steel are one and the same. The First Men, and presumably therefore the Last Hero, carried weapons of bronze, which are made by smelting copper and tin and pouring them into a mould, while steel as distinct from iron is forged in the fire itself, and therefore to bronze-carrying First Men may have appeared to be something quite magical in itself.

Ordinary steel, incidentally, doesn't always shatter on contact with the Others' weapons and armour. Ser Waymar traded blows with his killer for some time before his blade broke, so it would be interesting to see what would have happened had be been quick enough to actually strike the guy before it did break.

[alienarea]

Agreed.

First as to fire; Sam says that according to the stories he found, fire "daunts" the Others, which suggests that they avoid it, but its not as affective as dragonglass

Secondly as to dragonsteel, Jon immediately made the connection to Valyrian steel. There's an obvious problem with this in that the Valyrian empire and its steel arose long after the supposed defeat of the Others at the end of the Long Night, but that objection disappears in the light of the evidence for the Others being around north of the Wall since then.

That being said, its possible that dragonsteel and ordinary steel are one and the same. The First Men, and presumably therefore the Last Hero, carried weapons of bronze, which are made by smelting copper and tin and pouring them into a mould, while steel as distinct from iron is forged in the fire itself, and therefore to bronze-carrying First Men may have appeared to be something quite magical in itself.

Ordinary steel, incidentally, doesn't always shatter on contact with the Others' weapons and armour. Ser Waymar traded blows with his killer for some time before his blade broke, so it would be interesting to see what would have happened had be been quick enough to actually strike the guy before it did break.

Agreed. The Other was just a better fighter than Ser Waymar.

If we include the OOU knowledge that GRRM included the dragons later on it becomes evident that they aren't substantial in defeating the Others. So Daenerys can stay in Essos.

Random thought: The Others get stopped when the wall falls and they kill Shireen thus getting greyscale.

The prophecy has been translated wrongly, turn dragons into stone is the proper wording.