What evidence we have about Rhaegar not kidnapping Lyanna?

[Ned's Epic Beard]

I've been reading the speculations about Jon Snow and how he could be the product of Reagar and Lyanna’s love for each other.Jon Snow could very well be Reagar’s son but I think he is a child born of rape not love.

We have evidence of Reagar’s obsession with Lyanna Stark. No one can deny that the Targaryen prince had the hots for “wild northern beauty”. But what evidence we have that Lyanna shared those feelings?

In books, I tried to find any clue about Lyanna’s feeling towards Rhaegar but couldn’t find anything of sort. On the contrary, I found plenty of references about Rhaegar taking Lyanna against her will and raping her. For example in GOT, Bran explains Lyanna to Osha:

“Robert was betrothed to marry her, but Prince Rhaegar carried her off and raped her,”

It’s likely that Bran heard this piece of information from Ned. And considering how honorable and truthful our Ned Stark is, he wouldn't have spread the false info about his beloved sister.

So my question is: What evidence do we have that Lyanna Stark had any feelings towards Rheagar?

I know that this could be revealed in WOW I'm asking because whenever R+L= J discussion starts, people automatically assume that feelings were mutual.

[bloodymime]

In the Knight of the Laughing Tree story the Reeds tell Bran she cries when Rheagar plays the harp.

"The dragon prince sang a song so sad it made the wolf maid sniffle, but when her pup brother teased her for crying she poured wine over his head."

She laughs at Ned when he tries to tell her Robert will change when he marries her.

Also as much as Ned loves Robert he seems to have a higher opinion of Rhaegar which would be a strange thing of a man he believed raped his sister.

"There was no answer Ned Stark could give to that but a frown. For the first time in years, he found himself remembering Rhaegar Targaryen. He wondered if Rhaegar had frequented brothels; somehow he thought not."

[Christine K]

I don't have any concrete evidence. But since she was Ned's sister I'm guessing she has a least part of the honor that he was so famous for. And since she was betrothed it seems sort of unlikely for an honorable Stark to run off with another man and have a child with him.

[Spring Bass]

We don't have any direct information that they loved each other, but I think it's implied. We know that

1. Lyanna was pretty independent-minded, a great rider and decent swordswoman (she fought off the Frey bullies picking on young Howland Reed using a tourney sword). The flashbacks of her as a child make her out to be almost exactly like Arya. This is definitely someone I could imagine deciding to ride off with Rhaegar because she wanted to.

2. She was drawn to Rhaegar's music.

3. Ned doesn't think too badly of Rhaegar. In fact, he thinks of him as honorable in his own way - Rhaegar would not likely be the type of guy who would visit brothels.

4. Rhaegar never really loved his wife, although he was fond of her.

5. Rhaegar bothered to crown her Queen of Beauty before kidnapping her (a rather odd choice if he was just planning to kidnap and rape her).

[Ned's Epic Beard]

I don't have any concrete evidence. But since she was Ned's sister I'm guessing she has a least part of the honor that he was so famous for. And since she was betrothed it seems sort of unlikely for an honorable Stark to run off with another man and have a child with him.

If she had Sansa's personality, this love theory would have been more believable but as Ned mentions that Arya reminds of him of lyanna. Could you imagine Arya running out with a boy while her family burns?

[Dragonfish]

There are not "plenty" of references to Rhaegar kidnapping Lyanna. Only two characters explicitly state that he did: Robert and Bran. Both of their points of view are unreliable, however. In Robert's case, he's so obsessed with Lyanna that he probably can't bear to admit to himself that she may have loved someone else. And in Bran's case, the boy was not born at the time and is probably just parroting the rumors he's heard (Ned almost certainly did not tell him what happened to Lyanna, as he finds it too painful to talk about her). In addition, Bran gets the circumstances of Brandon and Rickard's deaths wrong, so he is clearly not an authority on what exactly happened during the war.

In contrast, there are numerous hints that there is more to the story than meets the eye:

1) Multiple characters in the books, including Jorah, Barristan, Cersei, and even Jaime, have highly positive opinions of Rhaegar. Even Ned seems to think about him positively, when he thinks to himself that Rhaegar was probably not the type to visit brothels (which would be an odd opinion if Ned believed Rhaegar to have raped his sister). It is hard to square these people's opinions with the version of Rhaegar that has him kidnapping and raping someone.

2) We know that Lyanna was not excited by her betrothal to Robert, and the story of her crying at Rhaegar's song also suggests she was infatuted with him. Ned also states, quite tellingly, that Lyanna had a touch of "the wolf's blood" which led her to an early grave. Why would he say this, if Lyanna was merely a kidnapping victim?

3) Ned found Lyanna clutching her favorite blue roses as she lay dying. The same kind of roses Rhaegar gave to her at the tourney. The symbolism here is obvious.

[Dragonfish]

If she had Sansa's personality, this love theory would have been more believable but as Ned mentions that Arya reminds of him of lyanna. Could you imagine Arya running out with a boy while her family burns?

Could you imagine Arya marrying someone her father was forcing her to marry?

Also, as I mention in my last post (which you were unable to see before you wrote this), Ned directly states that Lyanna has the "wolf's blood" (i.e. rashness and impulsiveness) and that this wolf's blood led her to an early grave. Why would he say this, if Lyanna was simply a kidnapping victim?

Oh, and no one is arguing that Lyanna was aware of her family's deaths and didn't care. We simply believe she wasn't aware until it was too late.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Where's the evidence, other than Robert's opinion, that she was raped?

[Christine K]

If she had Sansa's personality, this love theory would have been more believable but as Ned mentions that Arya reminds of him of lyanna. Could you imagine Arya running out with a boy while her family burns?

Definitely not.

Like Apple Martini said, I can think of no other evidence that she was raped and it makes sense for Robert to think she was raped since he loved her and didn't want to believe she would love another man instead of him.

[Ned's Epic Beard]

There are not "plenty" of references to Rhaegar kidnapping Lyanna. Only two characters explicitly state that he did: Robert and Bran. Both of their points of view are unreliable, however. In Robert's case, he's so obsessed with Lyanna that he probably can't bear to admit to himself that she may have loved someone else. And in Bran's case, the boy was not born at the time and is probably just parroting the rumors he's heard (Ned almost certainly did not tell him what happened to Lyanna, as he finds it too painful to talk about her). In addition, Bran gets the circumstances of Brandon and Rickard's deaths wrong, so he is clearly not an authority on what exactly happened during the war.

Well, I can't remember all those people who talked about rhaegar kidnapping lyanna story but I do believe there are more then just two. For example Danny's POV on SOS

“But that was the tourney when he crowned Lyanna Stark as queen of love and beauty!” said

Dany. “Princess Elia was there, his wife, and yet my brother gave the crown to the Stark girl, and

later stole her away from her betrothed. How could he do that? Did the Dornish woman treat him

so ill?”

(quick search for the word "lyanna" lol I'll try to find more)

[Ned's Epic Beard]

I give up! this 503 service error is killing me

[Dragonfish]

Well, I can't remember all those people who talked about rhaegar kidnapping lyanna story but I do believe there are more then just two.

Robert and Bran's statements are the only explicit references to a kidnapping. Other references to their relationship are ambiguous.

For example Danny's POV on SOS

“But that was the tourney when he crowned Lyanna Stark as queen of love and beauty!” said

Dany. “Princess Elia was there, his wife, and yet my brother gave the crown to the Stark girl, and

later stole her away from her betrothed. How could he do that? Did the Dornish woman treat him

so ill?”

The meaning of "stole" is ambiguous here. It could mean he kidnapped her, but it could also mean he enticed her away from Robert. Also, Dany is not a reliable source of information regarding Westeros or her family.

[corbon]

It’s likely that Bran heard this piece of information from Ned.

No, its extremely unlikely he heard it from Ned. Ned's silence when Robert is speaking about this screams uncomfortableness with the subject, if not outright disagreement.

Bran almost certainly heard it from soldiers rumours and similar inside Winterfell, since Ned is always extremely reluctant to talk about the events of the war, and especially about Lyanna or Jon.

I don't have any concrete evidence. But since she was Ned's sister I'm guessing she has a least part of the honor that he was so famous for. And since she was betrothed it seems sort of unlikely for an honorable Stark to run off with another man and have a child with him.

Note that Brandon Stark, the wild wolf, certainly did not have anything like Ned's version of honour. There is no reason that Lyanna would have Ned's version (although she did protect the little crannogman, showing she definitely has a certain sense of honour, just not necessarily Ned's) - she is also said to have a touch of the wild wolf. Ned is the quiet wolf.

Although he seems always to have been somewhat stiff (Robert says you were never the boy you were), it is also possible that Ned's honour code is reinfornced and amplified by a reaction to the damage caused by his older brother's casual disregard for the effects of his actions (Dustin, possibly Dayne, not to mention the idiocy in front of the Red Keep), and possibly even by the results of his beloved sister's actions too.

If she had Sansa's personality, this love theory would have been more believable but as Ned mentions that Arya reminds of him of lyanna. Could you imagine Arya running out with a boy while her family burns?

Her family burning came much later, long after she had exited the scene, and only after some gross stupidity by her brother and an increase in the previously demonstrated level of madness in Aerys.

It is quite likely that part of the reason Rhaegar and Lyanna disappeared was to forestall enflaming actions by their families. Ifthe two people in question can't be found, no one can mount 'rescue' assaults, and fighting each other is pointless. They two parties more or less have to talk, because anything else cannot achieve anything. But then Brandon goes and does something incredibly stupid and useless that couldn;t have been foreseen...

Yes, there are three people that tell us it was a kidnapping, though Dany still believes it was a love story, not a rape.

Robert - an inept idiot whose worldview demands that Lyanna loved him and Rhaegar raped her. But he wasnt there, never spoke to either party except to attempt (and succeed) in killing Rhaegar during a battle. He's not only stupid (enough to not realise he hasn't had penetrative sex with his own wife for years and his kids are actually his brother-in-laws) and extremely biased (enough to literally change his personality and approve of killing babies so long as they are Targaryen), but he actually has no actual knowledge (data) to form his opinion from. He literally decided that was what happened and since he was teh great lord, then king, no one argued.

Bran - not even born during the events. Has no personal knowledge and is clearly parrotting rumours, or even the 'official line' (Robert being the official of course).

Dany - got her information from Viserys. Like all the rest (Dragons can't be harmed by fire, can't get sick, the smallfolk are secretly waiting to rise etc etc) its extremely unreliable - almost more likely to be wrong than right, purely judged by source. Viserys was a small boy at the time, and he also never met any of the participants unless Rhaegar briefly stopped in with for a chat about how he stole Lyanna at swordpoint before he rode off with the army (I'm not sure if Viserys had been sent of to Dargonstone before then or not). Most likely Viserys heard the same official stories from Robert's side while across in Essos and simply 'adjusted' them from kidnap and rape to 'rescuing/stealing a lover at swordpoint' from her guards.

So to summarise:

Evidence for rape, or even just kidnap

- Robert Baratheons word, which is ignorant, heavily biased and not AFAWK based on any actual data

- Bran Stark's story, which is ignorant and certainly based only on word of mouth descending from Robert's official story

- Dany's swordpoint-kidnap-but-not-rape story, which is ignorant and probably also based on Robert's official story, suitably 'adjusted' for a Targaryen audience (Dany and/or Viserys)

Brandon's response tells us nothing for two reasons. First, he could be reacting that way even if Lyanna chose to run away, simply on the insult to his family's honour, and second becasue we don't what or how he got word of what happened, and therefore if he was told the truth. Rickard did not respond to Lyanna and Rhaegar's running away...

Evidence for Lyanna liking Rhaegar

- sniffling at his music, being teased by little brother and her reaction to that tease - very much sound like the start of a crush

- Ned's thoughts that Lyanna's wolf blood cause her death, implying strongly her own complicity in events as a participant, not a victim

- Lyanna clutching the faded roses on her deathbed, matching what Rhaegar gave her at Harrenhal

- Indirectly (humourously), Rhaegar being alive at all. Can you imagine Arya letting her rapist-lover live through the night?

Evidence for Rhaegar not raping her

- Ned's thought about Rhaegar not being the type to frequent brothels

- Everyone who knew him, including neutral parties like Jaime, 's good opinions of Rhaegar

- Ned's good opinion of Arthur Dayne (would he have continued to think of Arthur Dayne as honourable if Arthur was keeping his raped sister prisoner illegally?)

- Rhaegar supposedly loving her

Really, the conclusion is not in any doubt.

[TheSpottedCat]

And since she was betrothed it seems sort of unlikely for an honorable Stark to run off with another man and have a child with him.

This depends on one's view of honour. She might have found it dishonourable to put her head down and marry a man she did not love.

If she had Sansa's personality, this love theory would have been more believable but as Ned mentions that Arya reminds of him of lyanna. Could you imagine Arya running out with a boy while her family burns?

No, Arya is a hothead that might have ran away if she wanted to. I don't see Sansa as likely to run away with her lover. She'd be too afraid to do it, plus her romantic notions are more of the "getting married to a young handsome nobleman, and live in his castle and dress up and eat bonbons all day" type, not the running away into uncertainty type. Also, her family didn't burn right away. Being the hothead, she probably didn't think too much about the consequences. Later, when the whole Rickard and Brandon execution happened she was too far away to do anything and most probably too pregnant, as well.

[Last Eye of Bloodraven]

More important than kidnapping and rape are the honour issues to the families involved.

It is the same problem and outcome Robb got.

Jeyne plays the Lyanna part.

Robb and Rhaegar lost crow and life for their love.

It is too simitrical for GRRM not intentionaly creating it.

[ARYa_Nym]

I think it should be noted that Lyanna was older than Arya was. Arya throughout most of story has not reached sexual awareness or has caught feelings for anyone in a sexual manner so I don't think it can be definitely said that she wouldn't do something like that. "Love" also can make people do things that they wouldn't do otherwise.

I think Arya would see Rhaegar as the better of the two because she was very upset by the idea of Ned cheating on Catelyn so I don't think she could be married to someone like Robert. Rhaegar was technically cheating too though but I guess it can be rationalized that he would be faithful to her because she was the one who he chose and actually loved.

[Toccs]

I don't even think that Robert believes the kidnapping and rape story. I'm not saying that he knows they were married and had Jon, but he definitely knows or at least strongly suspects that she went with Rhaegar willingly.

[Helgar]

I think Robert very much believes the rape story. And how not? The only other people we know were certain it was not a rape case are (probably) Howland Reed, the three Kingsguard knights at the Tower of Joy, and Rhaegar and Lyanna themselves. Howland Reed is never implied to interact with Robert, the three knights to the secret to the grave, Lyanna died before she could say anything and Robert believes that Rhaegar had very good cause to lie in this situation (during the battle of the Trident). I would believe so too. Ned was the only person who could have told Robert the truth, and I bet that part of the "Promise me, Ned" was that Ned never told Robert the true story, for the sake of Jon's safety if nothing else.

That said, we should not miss the point of the entire act, that Lyanna was a 14 year old girl and Rhaegar the heir to the Iron Throne. The Mary Sue Dragon Prince should have more sense than run off with the only daughter of Stark, who is betrothed to the Baratheon heir.

[Fightbringer]

well we have evidence for lyanna not being into robert, when she was talking to ned about her betrothal at winterfell after their father announced it, she said that she wasn't too keen on it, since she thought robert would soon get tired of her, plus due to the fact she knew he already had a bastard in the vale

[The Last Reyne]

I wonder though why Rhaegar and Lyanna did not come forward when her brother and father were killed by Aerys. It seems to me much of this could have been avoided had Rhaegar and Lyanna only come forward. If they were so much in love surely they could have convinced at least Ned to side with Rhaegar if he agreed to depose his father. Rhaegar seemed to be considering this as he mentioned changes to Jaime before riding off to the Trident. Only if he had something to hide would he not produce Lyanna and at least try to make peace with Ned who could have probably convinced Tully and Arryn to stand down which would have left Baratheon alone and probably ended the rebellion.

No, I do not believe the conclusion is self evident as others seem to think. I'm curious to hear some of the other characters take on what happened like Barristan Selmy and Howland Reed. There's more here than straight kidnapping or star crossed lovers.