Coming Back From Death Sucks

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Oh come on. I think all these resurrections are so cheap. GRRM should stop doing these. Even in Harry Potter which is a child book only 1 person we tought dead is still alive and none resurrects. What do you think about it?

So far we have had a solid two (Beric and UnCat) legit "resurrections," with a possible third (Jon) coming up. Is that really enough to warrant "all these resurrections" as a line?

ETA: You can also argue Gregor but I think in that case he's just animated meat; there's no "there" there.

[lojzelote]

Yeah, I agree. It's getting terribly predictable. At this point it would be much more shocking if a person who was reportadly dead turned out dead for reals.

I also hope with all my heart that both Ashara and Arthur Dayne lie six feet under. Gerion Lannister, too.

Resurrections don't bother me so far, but if Jon is resurrected I hope he'll be permanently damaged; at least psychically if not physically. Resurrections weren't portrayed as a good thing in Beric's and Cat's case, and it should damn stay this way. It's a frigging breach againt nature itself. That said, I still think he's just one of those people who are not really dead, but we should think they are.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Yeah, I agree. It's getting terribly predictable. At this point it would be much more shocking if a person who was reportadly dead turned out dead for reals.

There's a difference between an actual resurrection and people believing, with no first-hand evidence, that someone is dead when they aren't.

[Carey Snow]

Yes, but Martin's characters come back in a very twisted way. I like UnCat (the only POV character that has come back from the dead and also happens to no longer be a POV character.)

He has not over used this at all in my opinion. Obviously, the Wights do not count. I am of hopes he is going a different direction with Jon Snow but we will see.

[LeoSuperstar]

People talk like Ned and Robb are still walking around...

[redviper9]

I don't know why people have been making so much of an issue of the resurrections lately. As Apple Martini and others have stated, we've had all of two confirmed in the series (Beric and Cat/Lady Stoneheart). Beric clearly served an important role in the plot, and while I have mixed feelings on Lady Stoneheart, it does appear that she will be critical to Jaime's and Brienne's arc. As for Bob Strong, that doesn't appear to be a classic resurrection, more like a horribly twisted Frankenstein-esque experiment.

As for a "confirmed" death that might not have been the real deal (a lá Wormtail from Harry Potter, which someone cited earlier), we've only had one: (F)Aegon. And again, it serves the plot.

Regarding the "disappeared but might still be alive" characters (namely Benjen Stark, Tyrek Lannister, and Gerion Lannister), it's a really small group when you think about the larger cast of ASoIaF. And, like the cases I note above, they could serve the plot in very important ways (Benjen as our possible window into the Lands of Always Winter; Tyrek as another pawn in Varys's schemes; Gerion as someone who could shed light on Euron's alleged trip to Valyria and perhaps aid his nephew on the other side of the world).

[lojzelote]

There's a difference between an actual resurrection and people believing, with no first-hand evidence, that someone is dead when they aren't.

Sorry, I tried to make distinction between the two, but it obviously didn't work.

The first paragraph was about people who are allegedly dead, but none of the POVs saw their dead body.

The second one about resurrection.

[Florina Laufeyson]

GRRM follows the rule of undead from Stephen King's Pet Semetary: what comes out isn't what you put in and sometimes dead is better.

Indeed. Which is why i dont think Jon will be Un'd.

[The Mountain That Posts]

This thread isn't complaining about JUST resurrections.

It's complaining about bringing back "dead" characters and the overabuse of sleight of hand, GRRM making us think *insert character is dead when they aren't* is pretty much the absolute default plottwist in these books. It's old and predictable as fuck.

Exactly why if characters like Tyrek and Syrio come back a lot of people will be pissed. It's okay for a character to actually die off screen without the audience ever learning. That's fine. GRRM, stop reviving characters. Take advantage of that and confirm Aeron as dead, instead of bringing him back - his "death" in the fourth book would be a suiting and realistic end to him. Oh well.

Guess you can't teach an old dog new tricks. So in the case of GRRM, he'll try and trick us with Davos's "death" three more times before the books end when he's, *GASP*, not actually dead.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

This thread isn't complaining about JUST resurrections.

It's complaining about bringing back "dead" characters and the overabuse of sleight of hand, GRRM making us think *insert character is dead when they aren't* is pretty much the absolute default plottwist in these books. It's old and predictable as fuck.

Exactly why if characters like Tyrek and Syrio come back a lot of people will be pissed. It's okay for a character to actually die off screen without the audience ever learning. That's fine. GRRM, stop reviving characters. Take advantage of that and confirm Aeron as dead, instead of bringing him back - his "death" in the fourth book would be a suiting and realistic end to him. Oh well.

Guess you can't teach an old dog new tricks. So in the case of GRRM, he'll try and trick us with Davos's "death" three more times before the books end when he's, *GASP*, not actually dead.

A lot of this would be solved if people could exercise some skepticism and stop believing that people are dead based solely on hearsay. :) I don't have much sympathy for exasperation in those cases. Davos' death was never seen first-hand, and Tyrek's body has never been found. And people are pissed and/or shocked to learn they (might be) alive?

As for it being used a lot, these are people in dangerous situations, traveling through warzones and into unfriendly territory, in a country with tenuous communications. False news is going to get sent, which is why, unless you see a body (notable exception being Syrio, who I think is really dead), don't believe it. If you follow that guidance, suddenly there's no "gotcha" moments people keep complaining about.

[The Mountain That Posts]

A lot of this would be solved if people could exercise some skepticism and stop believing that people are dead based solely on hearsay. :)

Actually, no. This would be solved and these plottwists would actually WORK if people actually DID believe people were dead purely on hearsay.

From my literature reading standpoint, i'm actually QUITE new to fantasy. Mainly what i've read my whole life have been horrors and mysteries.

MAYBE it's because of my background in that field(although I doubt it) but pretty much every single character revival(whether it be a resurrection, or return of a once-thought-deceased character) hasn't surprised me that much. Well, Lady Stoneheart surprised me, but that was a trick that only works once - hence why Gregor and eventually Jon are so easy to predict.

[redviper9]

This thread isn't complaining about JUST resurrections.

It's complaining about bringing back "dead" characters and the overabuse of sleight of hand, GRRM making us think *insert character is dead when they aren't* is pretty much the absolute default plottwist in these books. It's old and predictable as fuck.

Exactly why if characters like Tyrek and Syrio come back a lot of people will be pissed. It's okay for a character to actually die off screen without the audience ever learning. That's fine. GRRM, stop reviving characters. Take advantage of that and confirm Aeron as dead, instead of bringing him back - his "death" in the fourth book would be a suiting and realistic end to him. Oh well.

Guess you can't teach an old dog new tricks. So in the case of GRRM, he'll try and trick us with Davos's "death" three more times before the books end when he's, *GASP*, not actually dead.

Can you quantify "a lot" of people?

While I certainly can't speak for everyone on the forum, I wouldn't be upset if Tyrek or Benjen or Gerion returned in the final two books. As I stated in my post above, I think the nebulous status of their fates opens up a range of possibilities that could push the narrative forward and give us new insights into other characters and regions. As for Syrio, it's been heavily implied by GRRM that he's dead (in fact, GRRM is surprised that so many people still ask him about it, as summarized in the SSM I'm linking below).

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/FAQ/Entry/Is_Syrio_dead

Regarding the "revivals" -- which might be better described as cliffhangers -- yes, it's a standard literary technique, but I haven't minded it that much, because they kept me on my toes and pushed me to keep reading to find out if Davos (or Arya, another famous one) were actually dead. I guess everything is just in the eye of the beholder on that one.

Regarding the "old dog, new tricks" comment at the end, that sounds a lot like author bashing, which is not cool. It's one thing to theorize about these characters' fates and the possible impact -- both good and bad -- that their possible return would have on the story. It's quite another to resort to "GRRM is lazy and a terrible writer" just because you don't particularly enjoy a technique he's using.

[LeoSuperstar]

Can you quantify "a lot" of people?

While I certainly can't speak for everyone on the forum, I wouldn't be upset if Tyrek or Benjen or Gerion returned in the final two books. As I stated in my post above, I think the nebulous status of their fates opens up a range of possibilities that could push the narrative forward and give us new insights into other characters and regions. As for Syrio, it's been heavily implied by GRRM that he's dead (in fact, GRRM is surprised that so many people still ask him about it, as summarized in the SSM I'm linking below).

http://www.westeros....y/Is_Syrio_dead

Regarding the "revivals" -- which might be better described as cliffhangers -- yes, it's a standard literary technique, but I haven't minded it that much, because they kept me on my toes and pushed me to keep reading to find out if Davos (or Arya, another famous one) were actually dead. I guess everything is just in the eye of the beholder on that one.

Regarding the "old dog, new tricks" comment at the end, that sounds a lot like author bashing, which is not cool. It's one thing to theorize about these characters' fates and the possible impact -- both good and bad -- that their possible return would have on the story. It's quite another to resort to "GRRM is lazy and a terrible writer" just because you don't particularly enjoy a technique he's using.

:agree:

[DogLover]

Exactly why if characters like Tyrek and Syrio come back a lot of people will be pissed. It's okay for a character to actually die off screen without the audience ever learning. That's fine. GRRM, stop reviving characters. Take advantage of that and confirm Aeron as dead, instead of bringing him back - his "death" in the fourth book would be a suiting and realistic end to him. Oh well.

Readers were left with enough information to reasonably deduce that Syrio was killed, so if he is not actually dead, that might be a little far-fetched. However, I think most readers assume Tyrek is still alive because after numerous searches for him after the riot, no remains were found, which raises the question, "What the fuck happened to him?" If he's never mentioned again or his remains are found, I think that will be disappointing, since the vanishing without a trace creates an element of suspense.

[The Mountain That Posts]

I don't think GRRM is lazy or incompetent, I think he's brilliant. That being said, I think it's impossible to dissect ANY work of art(whether it be a album, a painting, a book, etc.) without looking at the flaws. GRRM's biggest flaw is his overuse of sleight of hand. (everyone seems to have ONE thing about these books they dislike, i've heard the food porn is another popular hate factor - but I don't even notice it really)

Select characters like Sandor Clegane and Benjen and Rickon MAKE SENSE to come back because they've been built up so much, characters keep mentioning them, etc. - other characters like Tyrek and Syrio, however, are basically nobodies to the story at large and bringing them back is IMO both unrealistic and overall lazy/uninspired due to the fact there's no build up for WHY this would be shocking.

But there's something about Davos being "killed" three times, Brienne being "hanged", Arya getting "hit with an axe", RIckon and Bran supposedly being burned/flayed alive, etc. that is just... so unbelievable. Maybe it's just me, but I can always tell when GRRM is bluffing a character's "death" and when he's actually killing a character. (again, the exception for me was zombie cat)

DogLover, I think at this point we're just supposed to assume he was kidnapped/raped/murdered in the riot. No big mystery there. It happens, it's realistic. WHat? Varys kidnapped him for his info on Robert and he's planning on rising him up to be lord of Casterly Rock? Eh, sounds just as farfetched as Syrio coming back.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Select characters like Sandor Clegane and Benjen and Rickon MAKE SENSE to come back because they've been built up so much, characters keep mentioning them, etc. - other characters like Tyrek and Syrio, however, are basically nobodies to the story at large and bringing them back is IMO both unrealistic and overall lazy/uninspired due to the fact there's no build up for WHY this would be shocking.

Actually Tyrek keeps getting brought up long after, if he was dead, he should've been forgotten (and really, he didn't even need to be included at all, seeing as he didn't really do anything except marry little Lady Hayford). And given the rapidly thinning ranks of Lannister heirs to Casterly Rock, he might be more important than a lot of people give him credit for.

[The Mountain That Posts]

He hasn't been mentioned once in AFfC or ADwD if I remember correctly. And he was only mentioned a few times in ACoK and a ASoS, and it's understandable why, given Tywin being obsessed with the family image at all.

I'm not seeing it. I think it'd be too unrealistic and far fetched if Varys kidnapped Tyrek during the riot. And wasn't he like 12? "HEY BOY, I'M GOING TO HIDE YOU AWAY AND TRAIN YOU TO BE A GOOD LORD" - even if IT DOES turn out this way and he comes back, I doubt he'll be too inclined to genuinely help Varys out.

[DogLover]

DogLover, I think at this point we're just supposed to assume he was kidnapped/raped/murdered in the riot. No big mystery there. It happens, it's realistic. WHat? Varys kidnapped him for his info on Robert and he's planning on rising him up to be lord of Casterly Rock? Eh, sounds just as farfetched as Syrio coming back.

It happens, but because Tyrek has been such a minor character and there have been so many mentions of his disappearance only leads me to believe he is still alive. I will be disappointed if he isn't.

[redviper9]

Select characters like Sandor Clegane and Benjen and Rickon MAKE SENSE to come back because they've been built up so much, characters keep mentioning them, etc. - other characters like Tyrek and Syrio, however, are basically nobodies to the story at large and bringing them back is IMO both unrealistic and overall lazy/uninspired due to the fact there's no build up for WHY this would be shocking.

I would not classify Syrio as a nobody. He's pivotal to Arya's arc (as evidenced by the fact that she keeps reciting his lessons to herself in every book) and he's our first glimpse into Braavosi culture and society, which has become increasingly important as the story has progressed. And Tyrek may not be physically present for much of series, but a "nobody" wouldn't be on so many minds long after his disappearance.

DogLover, I think at this point we're just supposed to assume he was kidnapped/raped/murdered in the riot. No big mystery there. It happens, it's realistic. WHat? Varys kidnapped him for his info on Robert and he's planning on rising him up to be lord of Casterly Rock? Eh, sounds just as farfetched as Syrio coming back.

There is nothing far-fetched about Varys spiriting someone away for some unknown purpose. In fact, it seems to be one of the things that Varys does best. He made sure Gendry got out of King's Landing when Robert was assassinated. He sprung Tyrion from the Black Cells and sent him off to Pentos. He could have easily gotten Ned out of the Black Cells if it suited his purposes. And, if you believe that Young Griff is the real Aegon Targaryen, then that was a successful spiriting away as well.

He hasn't been mentioned once in AFfC or ADwD if I remember correctly. And he was only mentioned a few times in ACoK and a ASoS, and it's understandable why, given Tywin being obsessed with the family image at all.

Addam Marbrand tells Jaime when they're leaving for the Riverlands that he never was able to find Tyrek. And as I recall, Tyrion remembers the riot when Penny attacks him in Volantis and later when he meets the member of the Second Sons who fled Westeros after Stannis's defeat at the Blackwater.

[The Mountain That Posts]

Another reason I don't believe Tyrek has any purpose is he hasn't been introduced in the slightest in the TV show. Faulty logic, I know. But the producers KNOW how the story goes and where it's ending and who is ultimately important and who ultimately isn't. That coupled with the fact this kid is, really, nothing but a name and we know NOTHING about said character and the fact it's simply unrealistic to expect us to believe that he's still alive, I doubt he will ever come up again.

As for Syrio being a nobody, I meant in the grand scheme of things. Obviously he has his roles(helping Arya get away from KL, teaching Arya, glimpse into Braavos culture) but I mean in the overall storyline he's relatively minor.