A King in Hiding: Adding It All Up

[J. Stargaryen]

Sure he's a stark - but he's of the lineage of the WRONG stark (If legitimised at all) Rob can name him the heir, and that claim can be disputed by either of the two boys with a (now) much better claim to Winterfell and the 'King of the North'

Lovers of the Jon Targ theory can't really have that both ways.

Of course this overlooks that Jon, himself, doesn't want it. He's already been offered Winterfell and turned it down.

Lyanna is not the wrong Stark, lineage or otherwise. And so called 'Jon Targ theory lovers' can have it both ways, because the story has presented that option - dare I say likelihood - to us. As has been pointed out already, Stannis's offer of Winterfell =/= Robb's offer of Winterfell.

Edit: slightly ninja'd by Techelles.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

Master Aemon:

to Jon:

Kill the boy, Jon Snow. Winter is almost upon us. Kill the boy and let the man be born.

to Egg:

It takes a man to rule. An Aegon, not an Egg. Kill the boy and let the man be born.

also I notised that Jon when he played with Robb was either the Young Dragon or the Dragonknight

[Arya Targaryen]

The bigger question is what happens if someone points out 'Ah Jon... yeah... about that whole Ned Stark daddy thing... turns out... you're still a bastard.....just not Ned's bastard.. sorry bout that..yeah and not even in the same line for succession.... we'll try and find you another letter somewhere......'

If the North decide they will follow Jon, they won't care if he is descended from Lyanna or Ned. I doubt Bran will come back soon, so the only real option is Rickon. Who would follow a 6-year-old to a battle? Rickon needs a regent, someone, who the northern lord will follow. Jon is still their best bet.

[Kahl Trollo]

Lyanna is not the wrong Stark, lineage or otherwise. And so called 'Jon Targ theory lovers' can have it both ways, because the story has presented that option - dare I say likelihood - to us. As has been pointed out already, Stannis's offer of Winterfell =/= Robb's offer of Winterfell.

Edit: slightly ninja'd by Techelles.

Oh yes she is. The line of succession follows from Ned, not his sister, ergo - weak claim no matter if Robs legitimizing is valid or not.

But even if you forget that, or it turns out he's the son of a tavern wench, you still have several things to reconcile apart from that, namely his vow to the Nights Watch. He can abandon that and be an oathbreaker, penalty for that is death.... or folks can say he doesn't get beheaded because he's just THAT awesome... well still an oathbreaker- can't REALLY see the northmen turning a blind eye to that. Or folks can use the rather weak argument that if he's ressurected then he's died and thus can leave the watch... righteo then, even if you pull THAT one - as part of his oath he actually forsakes all lands, titles, claims. Done deal - gone - kaput.

Everywhich way it doesn't work.

[Kahl Trollo]

If the North decide they will follow Jon, they won't care if he is descended from Lyanna or Ned. I doubt Bran will come back soon, so the only real option is Rickon. Who would follow a 6-year-old to a battle? Rickon needs a regent, someone, who the northern lord will follow. Jon is still their best bet.

Well they do have the option of taking the black and following him..... hahah

[oprahnoodlemantra]

Even if Jon is Lyanna and Rhaegar's trueborn son, I still think it's difficult to convince the entire realm that it's true. It's possible that word will get out that Jon is not really a bastard but I find it hard to believe that everyone would just hear something and go with it regardless of how likely it is of being true. Sure, it's possible that Lyanna and Rhaegar were married and there's a bridal cloak in the crypts of Winterfell, or Bran will see their wedding through the weirnet. Maybe Howland Reed does know and he'll start telling people. None of those are ways to reveal it to the whole realm. Not only that, the Targaryens have no claim to the throne because it was taken by the Baratheons by right of conquest.

Also, I can't see Jon even caring about the throne. Would he really rally an army and attack King's Landing because he found that two people he's never met are his parents?

Having said that, I think the common people of Westeros are overlooked. In the end, they decide who they bow to. If the Others attack and Jon is seen as the hero that brings them peace, it's possible that the people bow to him.

The only way I can see Jon making an effort to take the throne is if he decides that the lords need to cut the crap and assist the Watch. He could rally the Wildlings, the North (as Robb's heir), as well as Sansa's Vale army, and take the throne just to use authority to force people to focus on the real threat.

[Peter George Stewart]

Yeah I think there's a lot of plausibility in R+L=J, but I can't see it leading to Jon sitting on any thrones. He's still a bastard whether he's Rhaegar's bastard or Ned's bastard, and the Targaryen boat has long left the docks (Dany isn't going anywhere near the IT, she's on course to discover some deeper backstory to parallel Bran; and fAegon is just going to be another red herring).

I think the IT will dribble along with Tommen sitting on it, and finally be replaced by some new system that comes out of whatever the book's climax is (and it won't be a happy shiney democracy, just some incremental improvement, maybe a Great Council or something). Roose will remain WotN at Winterfell. Life just is that unfair.

[WiDMNDBAMMD]

All records that the Night King existed were destroyed. If there's a place for him in the crypt then that is a record. This is all assuming he was a King of Winterfell to begin with, though it seems a lot of Old Nans stories were seeded in truth but details lost in legend.

Jon in the chapter where he's thinking about what Robb said when he was little about how he couldn't be Lord of Winterfell how Stannis a king had offered him it, if he finds out that Robb named him his heir it will be another funny parallel. "You can't be Lord of Winterfell, bastard(little).... as King of the North I declare your name to be Stark and name you my heir as King of the North(older)."

There's another interesting parallel Cat thinks, yes take Jon the black Jon to the wall as Ned departs. That way he can never rival my own kids for a claim at winterfell. Then her horror as she believes all her sons and daughters are dead, save one who's married to a Lannister and her final son names Snow his heir with all his lords present to sign.

Jon Snow tells Arya "all roads sometimes lead to the same castle."

I think it's also important to note how many plots have been destroyed by other people's plots?

Stannis wants to name Jon Lord of Winterfell but when his men name him Lord Commander he hardly looks back... it's a parallel to Mance Rayder getting chosen by his people. Mance says he had to kill a few that wouldn't follow. Jon has to kill Janos Slynt who wouldn't follow. The Iron Throne wanted Slynt to be Lord Commander since they could control him. Jon starts to find ways to bridge the gap between Crow's and Wildlings because of his experiences with them and Mance. They want the protection of the wall more than they want their freedom from the rules of the Iron Throne but the gift and new gift were given to the Night's watch and the NW is beyond the rule of the Iron Throne.

[Arya Targaryen]

But even if you forget that, or it turns out he's the son of a tavern wench, you still have several things to reconcile apart from that, namely his vow to the Nights Watch. He can abandon that and be an oathbreaker, penalty for that is death.... or folks can say he doesn't get beheaded because he's just THAT awesome... well still an oathbreaker- can't REALLY see the northmen turning a blind eye to that. Or folks can use the rather weak argument that if he's ressurected then he's died and thus can leave the watch... righteo then, even if you pull THAT one - as part of his oath he actually forsakes all lands, titles, claims. Done deal - gone - kaput.

Everywhich way it doesn't work.

Robb was desperate enough to make him his heir, and a lot of Northern Lords know it. If they are desperate enough to find a Stark leader who leads them against the Boltons, Freys, and Others, they will just say, Robb's will is valid, it releases Jon from his vow, let's make him our king. Sure there is no precedent for that, but there is always a first time for everything. And nobody will call Jon an oathbreaker for it (maybe those who don't want him to be their leader - like Boltons. I don't see Jon as giving a fuck about what Boltons may say about him). And I think Jon is desperate enough to accept the throne, as it gives him more power (more men, etc) to stabilize the North, and fight against the Others.

[bardstark]

there is catelyn's insecurity abt jon's mother.

this is in GoT in the chapter where she gets the note from Lysa re: Lannisters killing Arryn.

She thinks, "Whoever Jon's mother was, Ned must've loved her fiercely."

now, i know this isn't pointing towards regality. but it IS pointing toward Lyanna.

[Jon Wolfwalker]

Whats up with the text?

[Kahl Trollo]

they will just say, Robb's will is valid, it releases Jon from his vow, let's make him our king. Sure there is no precedent for that, but there is always a first time for everything.

So you're saying that in the THOUSANDS of years the Nights Watch has been around this is the very first time they want someone very specific as a leader, and for that these people (deeply steeped in tradition and honor) will fly in the face of THOUSANDS of years of tradition.... just this once...

Sorry - I don't buy it.

And I think Jon is desperate enough to accept the throne, as it gives him more power (more men, etc) to stabilize the North, and fight against the Others.

I put it to you that he had LESS people on the wall when Stannis offered him Winterfell the first time and he emphatically said 'No..'. In fact rather than do that he sent word north for Tormund to come join him.

Don't buy that either.

In the context of the actual world and it's peoples, this idea simply doesn't work out either. If it did I'd personally think less of Jon and less of Martin.

What I COULD see happening is the force on the wall being routed without him, him recovering and rallying the North to him and making a stand at Winterfell to break the tide of the invading others and their creatures. That is plausable and hold with the history and nature of the people - Jon, however, would still in this regard be a man of the Nights Watch - I don't see that changing.

[Arya Targaryen]

So you're saying that in the THOUSANDS of years the Nights Watch has been around this is the very first time they want someone very specific as a leader, and for that these people (deeply steeped in tradition and honor) will fly in the face of THOUSANDS of years of tradition.... just this once...

Sorry - I don't buy it.

I put it to you that he had LESS people on the wall when Stannis offered him Winterfell the first time and he emphatically said 'No..'. In fact rather than do that he sent word north for Tormund to come join him.

In the THOUSANDS of years the Nights Watch has been around this is the very first time there is no Stark in Winterfell, AND the Others are attacking. Yes, I say it is a desperate enough situation for the Northern Lords to choose the only available adult, male Stark as their leader, and releasing him from his vows. Luckily, that's what their former king wanted, too, knowing Jon was a member of the Watch.

When Stannis offered Winterfell, Jon didn't know how hard it will be to struggle with the (lack of) able manpower at the Wall. Yes, he managed to strengten the Wall, with wildlings, but that's far from enough. And the Northern Lords declaring him as King, according to Robb's will is different from Stannis' offer (in which case he had to burn the godswood). In the latter case Jon would be seen as someone who actively seeks kingship, forsaking his vows, and giving up independence for which his brother died. In the former case, he accepts his fate as a King because that's what Robb wanted him to do, and the Northern Lords need him. And he knows there is not much he can do as LC right now. But there is a lot he could do if he gets rid of the Boltons and claims (actually, accepts) Winterfell.

[FittleLinger]

Robb as a king can make his stableboy his heir if he wills. Of course, in such a ludicrous scenario, a succession war is likely to occur, but the claimants will say that Robb was wrong/mad/whatever for naming the stableboy, not that the stableboy is not the rightful heir. The stableboy is the rightful heir if Robb names him, and that's it.

So no, no wrong Stark line. If things had turned out differently and say, Jon had died (earlier, heh), he could've named Theon Greyjoy if he wanted. It would have been madness, it would have been Sparta, but he could have.

[Techelles]

Oh yes she is.

Oh no she's not.

[FittleLinger]

I also wanna say, if we are thinking practically, we don't have a precedent. Either historically or in-books. Someone proclaiming his state as an independent one, thinking his real heirs are dead (brothers), then naming his bastard brother as a heir, who is a night's watch brother, and, a king's heir and not a bastard brother at all. So yeah, it's an unusual (to say the least) situation. We really need to bear this in mind.

[Kahl Trollo]

Robb as a king can make his stableboy his heir if he wills. Of course, in such a ludicrous scenario, a succession war is likely to occur, but the claimants will say that Robb was wrong/mad/whatever for naming the stableboy, not that the stableboy is not the rightful heir. The stableboy is the rightful heir if Robb names him, and that's it.

So no, no wrong Stark line. If things had turned out differently and say, Jon had died (earlier, heh), he could've named Theon Greyjoy if he wanted. It would have been madness, it would have been Sparta, but he could have.

Any northern lord wishing to make a grab for power, disputing the claim and setting themselves up reagency is a very smart way to go about it.

But this is just one of many many holes in the entire idea. Here's yet another, folks are using 'desperation' as a motivator. The notion of Kings is a political end game, not one of survival and expediency. When it comes down to survival folks will rally to whoever has strength.

There is a good line for Jon to be that strength, even to rally at Winterfell what routed troups remain from the wall if it should fall - but there is no requirement for a King. Personally I think the notion of a King in the North (for now) died with Robb. His noble motivation for rescue, then freedom was pretty much shattered at the Red Wedding. Even if this thought survived (and to be honest I don't think it does in the majority) the Iron Throne doesn't recognize it - he was a rebel and a pretender as far as the south goes.

How is that relevant? It divides the North. You'll have Lords who have reknewed fealty to the south pitted against those who still follow Robs dream, and now along with those pledged to Stannis (although Stannis - for now is actually working on the actual dangers ahead rather than petty squabbles...)

Every way you turn and look at the 'King in the North' notion - It gives very little advantage compared to the disadvantages it brings at this point in time. So far there hasn't been a single idea supporting it that I personally don't see great big holes in.

[FittleLinger]

snip

I'm sorry, I haven't really read your points and the whole argument in general, I was replying only to the point that Robb's will doesn't matter because Jon is not in the Stark succession line. I was simply pointing out that Robb can point anyone, no matter if they are a Stark bastard, a Targ bastard, or no bastard at all.

I do agree with some of your points, still pointing out (I can't really avoid the term "point" here for quite a while) that I haven't read the whole argument.

But yeah, de jure, there is no kingdom of the North, there was never a kingdom of the North in the timespan of the novels. Robb led a rebellion to make one and he lost. So his will, by law, will mean as much as my will, if I decided to make my neighborhood a sovereign state.

I guess the argument comes down to "Will anyone in the North backup Jon?". De jure, no, they shouldn't have to, but there are circumstances that have to be taken into account. A long discussion could be made about this, but I will point only one thing - the "rightfull heir of Winterfell" Ramsay Bolton adressed Jon Snow specifically as his "rival". Nuff said.

This being said, I don't think Jon will ever sit on a throne of any kind, but that's meta. Ramsay Snow is now the defacto ruler of the North. Won't the anti-forces like Manderley back up another bastard? I don't see why not.

[Peter George Stewart]

What I COULD see happening is the force on the wall being routed without him, him recovering and rallying the North to him and making a stand at Winterfell to break the tide of the invading others and their creatures. That is plausable and hold with the history and nature of the people - Jon, however, would still in this regard be a man of the Nights Watch - I don't see that changing.

It could change if the Nights Watch is dissolved maybe? That would surely release Jon from his vows.

Hard to conceive how that could happen though.

[J. Stargaryen]

Oh yes she is. The line of succession follows from Ned, not his sister, ergo - weak claim no matter if Robs legitimizing is valid or not.

But even if you forget that, or it turns out he's the son of a tavern wench, you still have several things to reconcile apart from that, namely his vow to the Nights Watch. He can abandon that and be an oathbreaker, penalty for that is death.... or folks can say he doesn't get beheaded because he's just THAT awesome... well still an oathbreaker- can't REALLY see the northmen turning a blind eye to that. Or folks can use the rather weak argument that if he's ressurected then he's died and thus can leave the watch... righteo then, even if you pull THAT one - as part of his oath he actually forsakes all lands, titles, claims. Done deal - gone - kaput.

Everywhich way it doesn't work.

If only Westeros.org gave out awards for members who best lived up to their user name.