Could Rhaego be Alive?

[Ducks in a Field]

Are you trying to out-crackpot me? If so, it is ON

Did.. Did I just get served?

No seiously - The usual assumption that I have seen about the prophecy of AA reborn (not even the prophecy of tPtwP, though mosttake them to be the same thing) is that one of those two events is the red star that bleeds - I am not adverse to other interpratations, but those are the usual ones.

Of course the prophecy doesn't say anything about being born under a red star, it says

"When the darkness gathers and the red star bleeds, Azor Ahai will be born again amidst smoke and salt..."

So the bleeding Star could be just a more general thing...

But you know, if you like Rheago can be the Prince that was Promised. He can take his bad two year old self to the land of always winter and lay some smackdown on the Others :P

[Vinterdvala]

Semi-random question: would Dany be lactating?

Dany breastfed the dragons until she got famished in the red lands and her milk dried up.

Dany had walked into the flames as they came forth, and they had drunk milk from her swollen breasts.

Dany hungered and thirsted with the rest of them. The milk in her breasts dried up, her nipples cracked and bled, and the flesh fell from her day by day until she was lean and hard as a stick, yet it was her dragons she feared for.

[rmholt]

Did.. Did I just get served?

But you know, if you like Rheago can be the Prince that was Promised. He can take his bad two year old self to the land of always winter and lay some smackdown on the Others :P

Dont underestimate toddlers! If he allies with Rickon and gets Drogo it could be nasty!

[Damon_Tor]

When the darkness gathers and the red star bleeds, Azor Ahai will be born again amidst smoke and salt..."

This is actually a really good point I never even thought of. This prophecy fits Rhaego perfectly, without having to mince words about what "born" means. Not entirely sure where "salt" comes into it though.

[Waylin Stark]

He could be alive, there is no hard evidence to suggest he died.

But as pointed out by previous posters, he wouldn't have much of an impact on the series until many many years later.

Also I think his death was relevant to all the blood sacrifices for hatching the dragons. To go back on that now seems unfair.

[Damon_Tor]

Also I think his death was relevant to all the blood sacrifices for hatching the dragons. To go back on that now seems unfair.

MMD was sacrifice enough, IMO. And the idea that she was a willing sacrifice makes it all the more compelling.

[Light a wight tonight]

The crone sensed the presence of "the stallion who mounts the world" in Dany herself, but obviously assumed it must be her unborn son. 'Cause girls, you know, are weak and meek and incapable of kicking ass, or at least that's the stereotype.

Well, for one thing a stallion "mounts" a mare to impregnate her. That's the normal meaning of a stallion mounting rather than being mounted. The Dothraki are nothing if not forthright about sex. (And mares don't do "cowgirl".)

[Jon Flowers]

I don't understand how MMD could have hidden and then spirited away an infant Rhaego without anyone taking notice. Wasn't Ser Jorah present in the tent with Daenerys? And if I've misremembered and he was not, wouldn't he and Dany's soon-to-be bloodriders have noticed any attempt to remove a newborn infant from the tent? Again I might be mistaken, but I got the feeling that MMD was made a prisoner after the ceremony and remained so until Daenerys reawakened (hell, she was already a prisoner of sorts wasn't she?). Given all of this, it's very hard to imagine her taking or aranging to have taken, a living infant away from the tent and into some sort of hidden custody without being discovered. Also, the whole thing begs the question, as has been mentioned frequently already by others, of why she would wish to keep Rhaego alive and safe and the same question applies even more to any of her theoretical confederates. Also, and finally, doesn't MMD explain that she has done what she has done to remove Droggo and Rhaego as threats to the world? Wouldn't having saved him have made her self-sacrifice (in her eyes) meaningless?

In summation, I just can't see MMD first, having saved Rhaego; second, having smuggled him away successfully and third, having arranged for others to raise him in safety and secrecy. And finally, to what end would she have done any of these things considering the act that she perpetrated against Rhaego's parents? I just can't see it maknig any sense.

[Damon_Tor]

I don't understand how MMD could have hidden and then spirited away an infant Rhaego without anyone taking notice.

GRRM notes on several occasions the size of MMD's medicine chest. Remember at the point where Dany was giving birth the Dothraki were scared shitless of what was going on; It would not be difficult to imagine MMD stepping outside the tent and telling one of Dany's bloodriders to get two strong Llazarines to assist her. As the Dothraki would be unwilling to help themselves, getting the Llazarines to do so would be a releif. The Llazarines would enter the tent, MMD would give them their instructions, and they would take the chest containing the baby away. Fear of magic could keep any Dothraki from giving them any trouble.

Wasn't Ser Jorah present in the tent with Daenerys?

Yes, but he had taken a grievous wound, a gash to the bone in his thigh, and later he can only describe the child in terms of how OTHERS described it. When Dany awakens he looks pale and sickly: it is likely he lost consciousness soon after carrying Dany into the tent.

And if I've misremembered and he was not, wouldn't he and Dany's soon-to-be bloodriders have noticed any attempt to remove a newborn infant from the tent?

See above: the medicine chest is key here, combined with the Dothraki fear of the goings-on.

Again I might be mistaken, but I got the feeling that MMD was made a prisoner after the ceremony and remained so until Daenerys reawakened (hell, she was already a prisoner of sorts wasn't she?).

It's unclear what happened between the ceremony and Dany waking back up, and what exactly the timeline was. At some point, the Dothraki realized Drogo wasn't going to come back and so they took off, but there might easily have been a day or so that MMD could have maintained the deception that everything had gone according to plan. Drogo was "alive" after all. Perhaps that bought them all the time they needed.

why she would wish to keep Rhaego alive and safe and the same question applies even more to any of her theoretical confederates.

It may be MMD believes that if Rhaego is not raised by the Dothraki he will not grow up to become a monster. Remember, MMD was a student of Marwyn the Mage: she would be familiar with the prophecies surrounding the Prince who was Promised, and may believe that Rhaego is that prince.

Also, and finally, doesn't MMD explain that she has done what she has done to remove Droggo and Rhaego as threats to the world? Wouldn't having saved him have made her self-sacrifice (in her eyes) meaningless?

To save his life. As long as the Dothraki think he is dead, they will not seek him out to kill him. She had to give them a plausible motive, even if it meant her own death.

And finally, to what end would she have done any of these things considering the act that she perpetrated against Rhaego's parents?

What act? She faithfully tried to save Drogo's life... twice. Yes, she lied to Dany later, but in doing so ensured the safety of the child until they can be reunited again.

[Dryhtscipe]

What gender was the horse? I don't recall.

[Damon_Tor]

What gender was the horse? I don't recall.

The sacrificed horse? It was Drogo's stallion IIRC. Male.

[JungWheats]

I could see this being the reality; quite easily. The concept of children being "taken" or "switched" has always been a part of the series. Jon Snow, Ramsay, Craster's Sons, Theon, Mance's baby and Gilly's baby. Baby shenanigans are definitely afoot in ASOIAF.

[Damon_Tor]

I could see this being the reality; quite easily. The concept of children being "taken" or "switched" has always been a part of the series. Jon Snow, Ramsay, Craster's Sons, Theon, Mance's baby and Gilly's baby. Baby shenanigans are definitely afoot in ASOIAF.

Not to mention Aegon, at least in the narrative we're given. It is definitely a recurring theme.

[chizm]

How very convinient that the infant's flesh began to fall apart right as Mirri touched it, and before anybody else could see it. Did anyone else actually see the child emerge from Dany's womb? We presume Jorah was in the tent, but was he watching the actual birth? He was grievously wounded at the time as well: how much blood does one lose from a gash to the bone in one's leg? Was he concious at all? All Jorah has to say on the matter is what "the women" say. What women? The Dothraki healers were afraid to even come near the tent, remember? How long after the birth did "the women" see the child? Were they preparing the corpse for burning? Or is "what they say" just gossip?

In other words, whose word do we have on the state of the child besides Mirri Maz Duur's?

Even if we assume someone else has seen the body, how hard would it have been for Mirri Maz Duur to take the child and hand it off to some of the other lamb-people, who later escaped during the chaos of Drogo's illness and death? If compelled to produce a corpse, her story of a twisted misshapen thing "dead for years" and stank like death could have been just about anything. Some creature she had kept preserved in a jar in that chest of hers, perhaps.

Mostly, I suspect this because we saw no body, we only heard of the event second-hand. Also, of all the prophecies in the novels, the ones concerning Rhaego are the only ones that simply CANNOT come true. No other visions are "what might have been" except those about Rhaego... why? Other visions have been MISINTERPRETED, sure, but with every one we could later go back and say "Okay, so Renly's ghost didn't ACTUALLY lead the army, the vision was of someone else in his armor" and so on. There are, as far as I can tell, ZERO other prophecies which are flat out wrong. Why? As a writer, why would Martin do this, make every other prophecy, (and prophets in ASoIaF are a dime a dozen, from fools to warlocks to fiddlers to priests) come true, but leave only the ones concerning a single individual unable to come to pass?

Also, for what it's worth, Duur seems to cleverly avoid confirming the death:

Which she might really believe, if he's being raised by the lamb-men.

Thoughts?

EDIT: I wrote, later, a longer post detailing several things with the given narrative that don't make sense re: the actions of MMD, as well as a more concrete and narrative description of what exactly I hypothesize occurred.

Q: If Mirri Maz Duur's treatment was to kill Drogo, then why did it do so, if he neglected the treatment?

Despite his bluster, Drogo's wound was terrbible, a cut all the way to the muscle. By all appearances, Mirri Maz Duur appeared to treat Khal Drogo's wound faithfully. He neglected her precise instructions, refusing to use the ointments she gave him and taking opiates and drinking alcohol. If her treatment was to blame for his illness later, why did it not take effect until 6 days after he had stopped following it? Surely she could have easily given him a faster acting poison. On a narrative level, why would the author tell us, the readers, that Drogo had neglected the treatment if we are meant to believe the treatment is what made him ill?

She is a healer, a woman of faith, and a bringer of life into the world. She explains her willingness to treat the Khal thusly: “All men are one flock, or so we are taught. The Great Shepherd sent me to earth to heal his lambs, wherever I might find them.” It is entirely possible, despite the grim take on humanity found in these novels, that Mirri Maz Duur is a good person. A Maester will council and serve and heal an enemy of his lord if he takes the castle: MMD's oath to her god seems to be in the same vein, akin to the Hippocratic oath of our world's healers.

A: Maybe she let Khal live in the short-term so she could kill Rhaego later

Dany had already agreed to have Mirri Maz Duur act as midwife. If she had wanted to kill Rhaego that could have easily been accomplished then. It is a simple matter for a midwife to kill an infant in childbirth: strangle it to cut off blood to the brain, snap it's neck, or pinch off the umbilical cord to withhold blood from the baby, and all of these would appear to be entirely normal birth complications. No need for theatrics and dark magics, dark magics which insured the Maegi would be killed by the superstitious Dothraki. She could have posed as a healer of no arcane talents, still impressed Dany/Jorah into midwifing for her by dropping Marwyn's name, and killed BOTH the Khal and the young stallion and (possibly) lived to tell about it.

The only death her magics ensured was her own.

Q: Why warn Dany at all bout the price, if the purpose of the spell was to kill Rhaego?

"Sure, I can save him, no prob. Just sit right there and watch, okay?" Why warn Dany at all about the price, if the price was her child, and not the horse?

Q: If we are to believe that Mirri Maz Duur wanted Daenarys' baby to be destroyed by the spell, why did she explicitly command her to exit the tent, and not reenter?

"Yeah, okay" said Mirri Maz Duur. "Stick around, this is really cool." That's all she had to say, if the death of Rhaego were her goal. Why would she instruct her, in no uncertain terms, to leave and not come back?

Q: Why heal Drogo at all?

So she performs what appears to be a very dangerous and difficult spell to partially ressurect Khal Drogo, knowing that it will not do so satisfactorily, and knowing that it will kill Rhaego. Why would she bother ACTUALLY healing Drogo? Why not just cast a "make baby die" spell? She had to know she would have been murdered by the Dothraki either way. So why bother healing the Khal at all, even to his mindless comatose state? Why bother?

Q: Why were the Llazareen in Dothraki territory?

So then why were they there? Why build a settlement right where they knew marauding barbarians like to come and murder people? This seems rather foolish, for what appears to be a peaceful people. Further, why would GRRM tell us they were out of place? What narrative purpose does that serve?

Hypothesis: Mirri Maz Duur is a prophet, who has recieved visions of the future. She has been acknowledged to have had contact with Maester Marwyn, the only Maester who seems to care about prophecy, and many readers have already interpreted her statement to Dany about Drogo's return as prophetic: “When the sun rises in the west and sets in the east. When the seas go dry and mountains blow in the wind like leaves. When your womb quickens again, and you bear a living child. Then he will return, and not before.” and Maegis have been shown to be prophetic in the past. She knows the importance of Rhaego to the future of the world, and puts her people into harms way. They build the settlement north of the river, where they know the Dothraki will raid, because MMD knows with them will be the woman who carries Azor Ahai reborn, and that it is her fate to bring him into the world.

Mirr Maz Duur knows Khal Drogo's protection is the child's best chance at safety growing into adulthood: she she sees the wound she does her utmost to save him, and treats him as well as she can. However, because Drogo ignores her advice the wound festers and he becomes very ill. Still holding on to hope that Drogo will survive to raise Rhaego, she attempts her blood magic in an earnest attempt to save him. However, her bloodmagic fails, perhaps because (once again) her explicit instructions were not followed, and the tent was breached, and she had to interrupt her spell to deliver Rhaego.

Jorah Mormont saw this, surely Duur would have as well. Her only chance at saving the life of this all-important child would be to smuggle it out of the Dothraki camp. At this point she is alone in the tent: Mormont is almost certainly passed out or delirious from the massive wound on his thigh, and no Dothraki is willing to come near the tent. Once she delivered the baby her plan had to change: to save Rhaego she would have to lie, say the baby died. But she would have no corpse, no evidence, and the lie might not be believed. She didn't have much to work with, but her chest contained a large variety of unknown elements. I hypothesize one of the items contained in that chest was the preserved body of some creature of about the right size, something scaly and with wings, matching how the child would later be described. She also added maggots ("grave worms") which would be a staple in any medieval healer's chest to help obscure the inhuman nature of the body.

The real Rhago she hid inside her chest, likely mildly drugged to keep him from wailing. She later took the chest to the other Llazareen slaves: how isn't clear, but it's also not terribly important, nor is it implausible; she may have instructed Dany's khas to fetch her some assistants from wherever the slaves were; they had proven willing to fight to the death to protect MMD on Dany's orders, and Aggo was the one who suggested she be taken to the Maegi in the first place, so it seems unlikely he would object to the request or question it. Later the slaves would take the chest away. In the coming hours (or days) they would escape as the chaos surrounding Drogo's illness splits apart the Khalasar.

Q: So why did Mirri Maz Duur act like she had done all this on purpose?

She was a prophet, and she so she knew what she had to do, and she was willing to die for the sake of the world. Dany had to have her dragons, and Mirri Maz Duur knew how to give them to her. Mirri knew that she had to die to give the dragons life, and so she said what she said to provoke Dany into sacrificing her upon Drogo's altar. From there, her spell would be seen as nothing more than the dying wails of a woman burning to death. The dragons would be seen as a divine gift, not the product of the magic the Dothraki revile so thuroughly. Mirri's magic hatched the dragons and protected Dany, though the Maegi died in the fire, sacrificing herself so the world would know dragons once more.

Great work Damon, my belief is the stallion who mounts the world will be Rhaego, i believe he is alive too. The lazarene are the christian, jewish, islamic Nazarene. Religions of the great shephard, the followers are sheep of the great shephard. Jesus was considered a messiah. A hidden messiah birthed in secret who returned and yeah you know the story. Hidden Rhaego messiah who returns to unite the world into one kallasar, who will take them to the "milk men" ( white people ) of "stone tents" ( castles and holdfasts ) and yea he will play a role in the help of uniting the world into a single kalasar. my hope is the seven kingdoms divide, the North gain their long sought independence and those south of the neck with be ruled bye fire. 2 kingdoms of ice and fire.

[mindchap]

I think some of the handmaidens see the dead infant too.

[chizm]

Did.. Did I just get served?

No seiously - The usual assumption that I have seen about the prophecy of AA reborn (not even the prophecy of tPtwP, though mosttake them to be the same thing) is that one of those two events is the red star that bleeds - I am not adverse to other interpratations, but those are the usual ones.

Of course the prophecy doesn't say anything about being born under a red star, it says

"When the darkness gathers and the red star bleeds, Azor Ahai will be born again amidst smoke and salt..."

So the bleeding Star could be just a more general thing...

But you know, if you like Rheago can be the Prince that was Promised. He can take his bad two year old self to the land of always winter and lay some smackdown on the Others :P

@ ducks the field. it is not the red star. the prophecy says when the stars bleed

[chizm]

owph

[Hedgehog]

Another crackpot theory:

What if Jorah's wound would've been fatal, but he enters the tent where "powers old and dark" are very much awake, the "dead are dancing" and "no living man must look on them", in short, the magic in there is working its course, and maybe the spell is not special-tailor-made for Khal Drogo.

The child dies upon birth, Jorah lives.

And starts appearing in Dany's fever dreams.

With two co-stars, both of which have one thing in common, they're both dead.

The bear keeps fading out fast in both visions - small wonder, he's only mostly dead at both occasions.

And mostly dead is slightly alive. ;)

Still, I think, he's going to have to die some time sooner or later. MMD can only be right with "The grave casts long shadows." (Get the man far away from Tyrion, please.) If only to stay permanently in those strange visions of Dany's.

[Yakman]

there's crack pot and then there's....

[Yakman]

there's crack pot and then there's....