Why do the Tyrells choose to ally with the Lannisters?

[Baratheon3508]

I'm not quite sure I understand their logic here. It all worked out for them in the end, but there are many reasons why tying themselves to the Lannisters after Renly's death should have seemed like a bad idea?

1 They took a huge gamble on being able to get theirs and Tywin's forces to Kings Landing in time to stop Stannis taking the city. They only just about got there in time, they could have easily been too late. If Stannis had taken the city, as he almost does, he would have killed Cersei, Joffrey, and Tyrion, therefore virtually wiped the power base of the Lannisters out, leaving them useless as allies.

2 The red wedding having not taken place yet, they would still have to deal with the North who are baying for the Lannister's blood. As is Dorne, due to Elia's murder, and the Vale due to Arryn's "murder" All in all the Lannisters are unpopular to say the least....

3 Having already committed treason by first allying to Renly, the Lannisters have every reason not to trust them. This makes for a very shaky alliance surely?

The alternative would have of course been allying with Stannis which may have been smarter?

1 They are already merged with the Stormland's army, making for a much easier transition, without splitting their army.

2 Robb will most likely support Stannis' claim to the throne, which gives Stannis + the North a huge advantage in numbers over the Lannisters.

The Tyrells could have proposed an alliance with Stannis (bear in mind there is no proof Stannis killed Renly), taken Kings Landing relatively easily, what with the Redwyne fleet and the huge army of the Reach considering Stannis almost achieves it with his much smaller force. Then they could have potentially married WIllas to Shireen (I know there's a large age gap but weirder matches have happened!) and waited it out to get a Tyrell on the throne.

All in all it seems like a more sensible plan not to get in with the Lannisters. I may be entirely off the mark here though, so feel free to set me straight?

[Daario's*before*Snows]

I doubt Stannis would ally with Tyrell.

Wasnt theTyrell fleet outside when Stannis was holding the seige during Roberts Rebellion?

[Minsc]

Probably, because Stannis killed Renly who was Loras's lover and Margaery's husband. Moreover, with the Lannisters they can marry Margaery off to Joffery and make her queen. In contrast, Stannis is older married man that cannot make Margaery queen.

[mcb]

Just one reason: the Lannisters offered a trade. Stannis, as far as we know, offered nothing specific. We can speculate whether he'd have agreed to a marriage between Willas and Shireen, and if so, how good a deal would that be (marrying King Joffrey v. marrying King Stannis' heir presumptive). But only one side put an actual offer on the table.

[J. Stargaryen]

I have a theory that explains this, though it's not an in universe explanation. The gist of it is that GRRM intends on wrapping up his fantasy version of the Wars of the Roses by marrying Jon Snow (blue winter rose/King in the North) to Margaery Tyrell (golden rose/queen in the south) to reunite the realm.

In short, the Lannisters passed the baton, if you will, to the Tyrells when they allied, thus allowing a Westerosi reconciliation via Jon (representing the Stark side of the conflict) and House Tyrell (representing what was initially the Lannister side of the conflict).

I've made a few posts about it, but to my surprise it hasn't generated much discussion. Here is one such post.

[Rolex Baratheon]

Stannis would obviously accept their alliance if they bent the knee to him as King.

As for them siding with the Lannisters, I found it sort of dumb and just a way for the author to keep the main Lannisters alive till later on.

[Ice Turtle]

Stannis and Tyrells have a bad blood between them since Robert's rebellion, Lannisters came with sweet offer, Stannis would never marry his daughter to former traitors. No mystery there.

[Scipio Africanus]

I found it sort of dumb and just a way for the author to keep the main Lannisters alive till later on.

The explination is pretty easy though. LF sold Tyrion's idea with one of his own plans. Marry Marge to Joff, bringing the Tyrells to KL. Lord Puff Fish would be excited just for that. However LF also made it known that Joff was a jerk (for once, he was telling the truth). This peaked the QoT's interests. Upon a private explination, LF sold his plan that Eddard refused - namely killing Joff and using a more pliable Tommen as a placeholder for the Tyrells. This was way too sweet a deal for someone like the QoT to pass off. It would save Marge for future deals. Besides, after a couple years of consolidating power in KL, if the Tyrells decided that they had enough of the Lannisters they could get rid of them by proving Tommen was a bastard.

This is besides the sentiments that the Tyrells opposed the Baratheons during Bob's rebellion and Stan taking over Renly's army which upsetted Loras.

[Baratheon3508]

Stannis would obviously accept their alliance if they bent the knee to him as King.

As for them siding with the Lannisters, I found it sort of dumb and just a way for the author to keep the main Lannisters alive till later on.

I thought that too. The Lannister ship is obviously sinking, and only hasn't sunk because the Tyrells are holding it up.

Stannis and Tyrells have a bad blood between them since Robert's rebellion, Lannisters came with sweet offer, Stannis would never marry his daughter to former traitors. No mystery there.

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Really? You think even Stannis wouldn't be stubborn enough to pass up an allegiance with the Reach. With the largest army in Westeros, and Westeros' allegiances split as it currently is, having the reach on your side is the game changer really.

As for refusing a marriage to former traitors. That would be a bit rich coming from a former traitor himself, which is exactly what Stannis was when he fought for Robert, and held Storm's End against the loyalist Tyrell forces.

I think people overestimate how duty-bound Stannis is. Renly and Cortnay Penrose were hardly disposed of in an honourable manner. It is also implied that he is sleeping with Red Mel behind Selyse' back.

[Pinkie Baelish]

The Tyrells want power. If they allied with the Lannisters and won, they were likely to get it. Joffrey was to wed Margaery. Stannis offered the Tyrells no such thing.

Looking at the statistics, Stannis had about 20-30000 men, while the Tyrells had, i'm assuming about 50000. So I don't think it was too much of a risk for the Tyrells to ally with the Lannisters.

[Baratheon3508]

The Tyrells want power. If they allied with the Lannisters and won, they were likely to get it. Joffrey was to wed Margaery. Stannis offered the Tyrells no such thing.

Looking at the statistics, Stannis had about 20-30000 men, while the Tyrells had, i'm assuming about 50000. So I don't think it was too much of a risk for the Tyrells to ally with the Lannisters.

But the Tyrells could have proposed it to Stannis, and that way you could end up with Stannis, Tyrell, the North, Riverunn all working together against the Lannisters, with the Vale and Dorne potential additions to that.

I think the Tyrells may have more men than that, as Renly has an army of 100,000 at least and I think the Reach army was the larger proportion of that.

But it is a risk tying themselves to a house that everyone seems to hate. They are hardly popular. I guess it all comes down to Joffrey being a good age to marry Margaery. But still you wonder whether it was the most sensible option

Also responding to this

This is besides the sentiments that the Tyrells opposed the Baratheons during Bob's rebellion and Stan taking over Renly's army which upsetted Loras.

Yes I imagine Loras wouldn't have been the most keen for an alliance with Stannis, though bear in mind he thinks Brienne the murderer at this point, not Stannis. Also would Loras have any influence if any on how his family go about things. I imagine it's the Queen of Thorns and Mace who make the decisions. Does what the children want have any impact? Yes, they seemed to play into what Loras wanted by tying themselves initially to Renly, but I imagine that this was more to do with the power that an allegiance with Renly offered them, rather than down to Loras' personal feelings.

[Scipio Africanus]

. Does what the children want have any impact? Yes, they seemed to play into what Loras wanted by tying themselves initially to Renly, but I imagine that this was more to do with the power that an allegiance with Renly offered them, rather than down to Loras' personal feelings.

I think they do. Mace isn't Tywin. Or rather, he has no chance to be one as the QoT is still alive. They seem to be pretty close to one another and have a singular objective which they persued collectively. Well, at least the QoT and her grandchildren are doing that. There's good reason to believe both Marge and Garlan were involved in the PW plot, for example.

Loras and Renly squired togethter in their youths and developed a relationship in that time. I doubt that gaining power was the primary motivator for their relationship, even though they eventually plotted just that. But the relationship seems genuine to me even though in the books we barely see it.

[Stoned Dragon]

I don't think you're looking at the bigger picture for the Tyrells.

Dorne wasn't involved in this war, and neither was the Vale. The Baratheons were fighting each other, the Lannisters were attempting to hold onto KL, and the North had seceded. Given how fragmented the entire Kingdom was, whomever the Tyrells aligned themselves with was going to end up winning the war since they were the only other major house with the money, men, and motivation to make a move in the Game. They were the reason Renly was a threat to Stannis and the Kingdom, and they bought Tywin enough peace to hatch the RW plotting. Their alliance with the Lannisters wasn't even that risky since - if they failed to save KL - the Lannisters would have been the ones primarily punished and the Tyrells would have been able to walk away from that alliance fairly easily since Loras wasn't yet on the KG and Maergery wasn't yet married to Joffrey/Tommen.

[Baratheon3508]

I think they do. Mace isn't Tywin. Or rather, he has no chance to be one as the QoT is still alive. They seem to be pretty close to one another and have a singular objective which they persued collectively. Well, at least the QoT and her grandchildren are doing that. There's good reason to believe both Marge and Garlan were involved in the PW plot, for example.

Loras and Renly squired togethter in their youths and developed a relationship in that time. I doubt that gaining power was the primary motivator for their relationship, even though they eventually plotted just that. But the relationship seems genuine to me even though in the books we barely see it.

I'm definitely not suggesting that Loras and Renly's relationship wasn't genuine :) They seem to have perhaps the most genuine relationship we see in the series!

I'm just saying that the Tyrell's decision to go with the Renly allegiance (although obviously facilitated by the Loras/Renly love) was perhaps more influenced by the chance to put a Tyrell on the throne that making Loras happy.

I agree that the Tyrells are a close knit bunch and care about each other, but equally I doubt that the Queen of Thorns would condone a risky course of action just to make the younger members happy. But who knows! :)

[Fire and Blood!]

And who else could they have allied with?Stannis?As Renly correctly stated no one wants him for king, all of the Realm denies his claim.

[Scipio Africanus]

I agree that the Tyrells are a close knit bunch and care about each other, but equally I doubt that the Queen of Thorns would condone a risky course of action just to make the younger members happy. But who knows! :)

Of course not, but Renly would've had a positive opinion of the Tyrells because of Loras. He could've wanted to bring Loras' family closer to him, as he naturally trusted them more than say the Lannisters. The QoT might've heard or noticed it as well. Whatever sparked Renly's plot to pimp Marge to Bob we will never know at any rate. But I suspect it went something like, Renly heard rumors on Cercei's kids legitimacy, would've been in contact with Loras or at least have known who Marge was, and thought he could bring ol' Bob a new wife and at the same time bring the Tyrells to KL.

[LadyMary]

Probably, because Stannis killed Renly who was Loras's lover and Margaery's husband. Moreover, with the Lannisters they can marry Margaery off to Joffery and make her queen. In contrast, Stannis is older married man that cannot make Margaery queen.

Also I think the Tyrells are hedging their bets. They wanted to marry Sansa Stark to Willas, which would give them a claim/potential ally in the North if things went bad with their Lannister alliance.

If Ned has successfully disclosed the illegitimacy of Joffrey, Tommen and Myrcella to Robert and Robert had not died, the Tyrells would have probably tried to marry Margaery to Robert instead of Renly. As it is, they saw Renly's bigass army and probably thought he had the better chance against the Lannister loyalists.

They had no chance with Stannis. There was no alliance through marriage, unless the betrothed Willas - or Loras to Shireen, and Stannis was a prickly man who believed he was owed fealty, and wasn't quick to forgive those who didn't see it the same way. If Stannis had defeated the Lannisters in the battle of Blackwater, I think the Tyrells would have been shit out of luck because Stannis doesn't have a diplomatic bone in his body and would have considered them traitors to himself as the "rightful" king.

[Djinn]

The Lannister deal was the best on the market. Margaery get to be Queen, Mace's grandchildren will be royals, there's lands to the victors, revenge against Stannis(Renly's benefited him), Dorne and Vale are neutral up to now, the Stark-Tully are busy with the Greyjoys. Wealth, status and military glory.Nobody else was offering this to them. Not Stannis or Robb or Balon.

[GarthKITN]

Because Robb screwed up.

As much as I love Robb, this was his single biggest mistake ever. As soon as Renly died he should have sent alliance offerings to the Tyrells before Tyrion did. At that point in the story he had Sansa and Rickon to offer. If he does that and the Tyrells side with him the Lannisters are basically spent trying to defeat Stannis, if they're able to at all. So that way no matter who is sitting the Iron Throne after the Battle of the Blackwater, Robb has a massively huge numbers advantage and can basically march straight to King's Landing and flank it.

I don't think at that point it would be unreasonable for Robb, who doesn't care who sits the Iron Throne, to either force Stannis into a peace agreement or just offer Mace Tyrell the Iron Throne, with Sansa wed to Willas and Rickon to Margery. The same case can be made for him not engaging the Martells in Sunspear, although there's no real telling if they'd accept as they were still clinging to the hope of Dany coming west at some point.

It's one of those "Oh my god, what are you doing!?" moments for me.

[The Broke Howard Hughes]

Because Stannis had just killed Renly. Loras was his lover and Margaery his wife. Loras could have quite possibly been hurt enough to convince the Tyrell clan to side with the Lannisters in the war. Then again it's very likely they saw an opportunity.