Why are the Starks so naive/dumb?

[Frey Pentos]

They really make dumb/naive decisions.

1) Brandon and Rickard confronting Aerys in his own hall and getting themselves killed.

2) Ned confronting Cersei about the incest and getting himself killed.

3) Robb trusting Theon, marrying Jeyne and getting himself killed.

4) Catelyn releasing Jaime, undermining Robb and getting herself killed.

5) Jon breaking his NW vows....and getting himself killed.

What's wrong with these fools? Why don't they have a clue about politics and the GoT? This is an old, great House yet seems to have completely forgotten how this world works.

[Mladen]

The same questions we have been asking for so long...But, they are not dumb, they just presume everyone else are as honorable as they are.

[Frey Pentos]

The same questions we have been asking for so long...But, they are not dumb, they just presume everyone else are as honorable as they are.

Making bad decisions is a sign of dumbness. Why are they so naive as to assume others will just let them get away with oathbreaking?

[therealbando]

I think that they believe other people are as honorable as they are. The Starks seem to play by the rules almost all the time. They accept enemies, but honorable enemies. This applies best to Ned`s example. He knew from the begining that it was either him or Cersei and Cersei knew it too. However Ned, after he found out about the twincest, did the honorable thing and confronted Cersei instead of going to Robert first because he never even thought that Cersei would kill her own husband.

[eggs]

They know what theyre doing, they just dont care.

and I dont see how you can blame Rickard for answering Aerys' summons.

[Frey Pentos]

I think that they believe other people are as honorable as they are. The Starks seem to play by the rules almost all the time. They accept enemies, but honorable enemies. This applies best to Ned`s example. He knew from the begining that it was either him or Cersei and Cersei knew it too. However Ned, after he found out about the twincest, did the honorable thing and confronted Cersei instead of going to Robert first because he never even thought that Cersei would kill her own husband.

Ok but Robb knew the Freys would be after his blood and Jon knew he was breaking the vows of the Nights watch, yet they just go ahead and do it and then seem surprised at the repercussions. Dumb.

[eggs]

Making bad decisions is a sign of dumbness. Why are they so naive as to assume others will just let them get away with oathbreaking?

they arent really naive. They just dont have the plot to protect them from their fuck ups. Jon knew he was in deep shit for betraying the watch, but that doesnt mean he knew he was going to get immediately shanked.

I think that they believe other people are as honorable as they are. The Starks seem to play by the rules almost all the time. They accept enemies, but honorable enemies. This applies best to Ned`s example. He knew from the begining that it was either him or Cersei and Cersei knew it too. However Ned, after he found out about the twincest, did the honorable thing and confronted Cersei instead of going to Robert first because he never even thought that Cersei would kill her own husband.

there was really nothing honorable about going to Cersei. Letting someone escape punishment for their crimes seems like a dishonorable thing to do. He did it out of mercy for the kids.

Ok but Robb knew the Freys would be after his blood and Jon knew he was breaking the vows of the Nights watch, yet they just go ahead and do it and then seem surprised at the repercussions. Dumb.

How did Robb know that Frey was after his blood? He patched things up as best he could.

[therealbando]

there was really nothing honorable about going to Cersei. Letting someone escape punishment for their crimes seems like a dishonorable thing to do. He did it out of mercy for the kids.

.

He warned her because of the 3 children and not because he cared about her. He knew that Robert would have killed Joffrey, Tommen and Myrcella and he couldn`t have that on his hands, that`s why he warned her.

Ok but Robb knew the Freys would be after his blood and Jon knew he was breaking the vows of the Nights watch, yet they just go ahead and do it and then seem surprised at the repercussions. Dumb.

In Jon`s case you`re right, but Robb couldn`t have known what Walder Frey was planning. He knew the Freys won`t let it go that easily but I don`t think he expected the RW.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

They really make dumb/naive decisions.

1) Brandon and Rickard confronting Aerys in his own hall and getting themselves killed.

2) Ned confronting Cersei about the incest and getting himself killed.

3) Robb trusting Theon, marrying Jeyne and getting himself killed.

4) Catelyn releasing Jaime, undermining Robb and getting herself killed.

5) Jon breaking his NW vows....and getting himself killed.

What's wrong with these fools? Why don't they have a clue about politics and the GoT? This is an old, great House yet seems to have completely forgotten how this world works.

1) Emotional state of mind for Brandon. And you know, Aerys was a nutjob. Any non-insane ruler would have tried to solve the situation instead of raising the stakes.

2) Cersei = nutjob with plot armor. The stunt she pulled had a chance of 1:1,000 of working or less. Any sane person would have done what Ned expected her to do: run.

3) Trusting Theon was sensible. He grew up with him and the offer for Balon was very sensible. Again, a nutjob (Balon) ruined it just out of spite. And plot armor.

Walder Frey was a nutjob as well. A bit of risk, all right. But the Freys went miles beyond anything imaginable.

4) Desperate. Not exactly the brightest thing, but desperate mothers often take outright suicidally risks to save their children.

5) Debatable on all subjects. Trying to solve an unsolvable situation.

they arent really naive. They just dont have the plot to protect them from their fuck ups. Jon knew he was in deep shit for betraying the watch, but that doesnt mean he knew he was going to get immediately shanked.

there was really nothing honorable about going to Cersei. Letting someone escape punishment for their crimes seems like a dishonorable thing to do. He did it out of mercy for the kids.

How did Robb know that Frey was after his blood? He patched things up as best he could.

:agree:

By and large, the Starks are honorable, sensible folks that expect people to act rationally. Nutjob behavior is something they aren't expecting.

[Tagganaro]

They really make dumb/naive decisions.

1) Brandon and Rickard confronting Aerys in his own hall and getting themselves killed.

2) Ned confronting Cersei about the incest and getting himself killed.

3) Robb trusting Theon, marrying Jeyne and getting himself killed.

4) Catelyn releasing Jaime, undermining Robb and getting herself killed.

5) Jon breaking his NW vows....and getting himself killed.

What's wrong with these fools? Why don't they have a clue about politics and the GoT? This is an old, great House yet seems to have completely forgotten how this world works.

1) Brandon's a hot-headed fool, but his sister was just apparently kidnapped by the crown prince. Stupid to go out there and confront him like that? Yes, probably, but at the same time do you expect him to just sit back and do nothing about it? Also, Rickard did not confront Aerys or anything like that. He was called/invited to speak on behalf of Brandon and then essentially ambushed and murdered by an insane tyrant. I wouldn't say foolish at all though.

2) Maybe a little foolish but also very honorable. Ned has always been very much against child murder because he's a good human being. He wanted to give Cersei and her children a chance to escape before anything happened to them. I'm gonna say not foolish on that one.

3) First part of this is 100% stupid as all hell. Releasing Theon was one of the worst, dumbest decisions I've seen made in the series. Second part of marrying Jeyne? I'm gonna say again honorable but not really stupid. Even Tywin isn't fully surprised or dismissive of it. Robb dishonored the girl in a moment of weakness. Out of his sense of honor he felt forced to marry her afterwards.

4) 100% not stupid. In fact I think it was pretty smart as Robb was not listening to reason and Karstark was basically being an insane crybaby. This was Cat's best chance at getting her girls back as far as she knew. Not stupid. It didn't work out that way, but if Robb had only let her do it officially it could have. Then he could have taken Sansa and tried marrying her to Willas Tyrell. That would have changed the war.

5) Not stupid. Ramsay had just threatened Jon and all of the NW. The guy who Jon believed had his beloved sister Arya had just boasted of flaying a bunch of spear wives. I don't blame Jon for reacting the way he did.

[eggs]

He warned her because of the 3 children and not because he cared about her. He knew that Robert would have killed Joffrey, Tommen and Myrcella and he couldn`t have that on his hands, that`s why he warned her.

Are you arguing with me? I said the same thing:

He did it out of mercy for the kids.

[therealbando]

Are you arguing with me? I said the same thing:

Not arguing... I didn`t read your last sentence, sorry

[Angmar]

They just have ill luck.

The Lannisters on the contrary have their things handed on a platter until Joffrey's death.

[Mladen]

Making bad decisions is a sign of dumbness. Why are they so naive as to assume others will just let them get away with oathbreaking?

It`s not dumbness, it`s having principle, living by a code. Their oathbreakings is actually following some more important codes and oaths than those they have broken. Robb honored a girl, Brandon and Catelyn honored their familes, Ned honored the oath he took, and the friendship with Robert. They all had important reasons to break those arrangements

[Frey Pentos]

1) Brandon's a hot-headed fool, but his sister was just apparently kidnapped by the crown prince. Stupid to go out there and confront him like that? Yes, probably, but at the same time do you expect him to just sit back and do nothing about it? Also, Rickard did not confront Aerys or anything like that. He was called/invited to speak on behalf of Brandon and then essentially ambushed and murdered by an insane tyrant. I wouldn't say foolish at all though.

2) Maybe a little foolish but also very honorable. Ned has always been very much against child murder because he's a good human being. He wanted to give Cersei and her children a chance to escape before anything happened to them. I'm gonna say not foolish on that one.

3) First part of this is 100% stupid as all hell. Releasing Theon was one of the worst, dumbest decisions I've seen made in the series. Second part of marrying Jeyne? I'm gonna say again honorable but not really stupid. Even Tywin isn't fully surprised or dismissive of it. Robb dishonored the girl in a moment of weakness. Out of his sense of honor he felt forced to marry her afterwards.

4) 100% not stupid. In fact I think it was pretty smart as Robb was not listening to reason and Karstark was basically being an insane crybaby. This was Cat's best chance at getting her girls back as far as she knew. Not stupid. It didn't work out that way, but if Robb had only let her do it officially it could have. Then he could have taken Sansa and tried marrying her to Willas Tyrell. That would have changed the war.

5) Not stupid. Ramsay had just threatened Jon and all of the NW. The guy who Jon believed had his beloved sister Arya had just boasted of flaying a bunch of spear wives. I don't blame Jon for reacting the way he did.

They seem incapable of thinking anything through. It's amazing the house has lasted so long.

[CKPS63]

My impression is that the Starks just don't get out much. They live a very insular lfe in the North where, for reasons historical and mythical, they enjoy near-cult status and loyalty among their bannermen. In ADWD, Lady Dustin refers to Lord Rickard's "Southron ambitions" as if they were an unusual departure from the norm, and, while Ned joins in Robert's rebellion, he returns to the North when it is over and avoids further entanglements in Southern politics. Indeed, the Starks are perfectly comeptent when it comes to governing their ancestral corner of the Seven Kingdoms, but are a bit out of their comfort zone when it comes to the complicated politics of the country as a whole.

[The Titan's Legitimate Son]

The Starks have honour and a code to obey.

Also, I'm guessing that in the North everything is brutally simpler. The Game is frozen and very few people are scheming. The only time there is scheming by Northerners is to oust invaders - i.e The Great Northern Conspiracy.

[Frey Pentos]

It`s not dumbness, it`s having principle, living by a code. Their oathbreakings is actually following some more important codes and oaths than those they have broken. Robb honored a girl, Brandon and Catelyn honored their familes, Ned honored the oath he took, and the friendship with Robert. They all had important reasons to break those arrangements

This sense of honour seems to be quite selective as well. It's not honourable to break marriage vows or the NW oath. Catelyn acted purely out of self interest, disregarding the effect it would have on Stark bannermen.

[eggs]

They seem incapable of thinking anything through. It's amazing the house has lasted so long.

Thing is, they actually do understand the consequences of their actions. Its not like Robb thought marrying Jeyne wouldnt be a problem. Same for Cat freeing Jaime or Ned informing Cersei.

[The Broke Howard Hughes]

I'm constantly amazed at how hard everyone is on the Starks. It's one thing to read a novel and think I'd have done something different in that situation. Its another to stand idle while your sister is being tortured. Or while you've lost two children and are desperate to save two more. Or while your father is arrested without cause and beheaded. Or while you meet a woman you love at 15 and think you may never find it again and push everything else aside to hold onto it. Every 'stupid' mistake the Starks have made have been very human ones. Anyone who says not letting children die horrible deaths is niave is a sociopath. Thier mistakes although ill advised are mistakes anyone would make. They aren't that strange. And any man will tell you Robb's mistakes are the most common. 15 year old boys who are having sex will betray every friend, break every promise, cross every boundary to make sure it continues.