How is Jaime Lannister on a redemption arc?

[Jasta11]

I don't know. Given that his best act is, by far, killing Aerys to stop the burning of King's Landing (in fact, it's probably one of the most heroic and important acts in the series, taboos be damned the lives of 400 000 people are far more important), and that he does so years before attempting to kill Bran. But then he saves Brienne. But then he marches against Riverrun and makes threats I am pretty sure he intended to carry. He swings up and down, like most of the grey characters in the series. His behavior has kinda improved and he tries to convince himself that he's better now, and he goes away from Cercei, but he's still the same Jaime at heart, I think. Remember, honor is a horse.

[lady m]

A lot of people overlook his terrible actions while magnifying Tyrion's. It sickens me.

The inverse is equally true.

[Chickren]

I find your responses a bit difficult to decipher, but I'll bite.

If its one thing Jamie does its whats best for him i dont think he'll tell every one about the incest just his kids. and that aint good enough. oh and he should be ashamed. and thats the whole point he isn't.

"I am sick of being careful. The Targaryens wed brother to sister, why shouldn’t we do the same? Marry me, Cersei. Stand up before the realm and say it’s me you want. We’ll have our own wedding feast, and make another son in place of Joffrey."

--George R. R. Martin. A Storm of Swords.

"Tommen’s throne derives from Robert, you know that."

"He’ll have Casterly Rock, isn’t that enough?"

--George R. R. Martin. A Storm of Swords.

"I’m not ashamed of loving you, only of the things I’ve done to hide it. That boy at Winterfell . . ."

--George R. R. Martin. A Storm of Swords.

yes let him start the self indulgent crazy treasonous crime then dispense the justice, exactly that way you live up to your oaths and you dont look like oh a king slayer

Interesting value judgement. I mean what are hundreds of thousands of lives compared to keeping your oath? Brienne (who takes an oath as seriously as anyone) knows the whole story and has completely ceased to think of, or refer to, Jaime as Kingslayer by AFFC. Jaime himself admits that it's his pride that prevents him from ever explaining himself. The implication being that the truth would change people's minds.

o.k. so you tell your brother that your dad actually had your wife gang raped. and then made you go, and say to yourself ok glad we got that over with. this in no way can come back to bite me, this won't result in any retaliation were all good now right bro.

"He never said he meant to kill our father. If he had, I would have stopped him. Then I would be the kinslayer, not him."

--George R. R. Martin. A Feast for Crows.

a good way to help keep your children alive is to put them in a situation thats safe he gave that up with the incest.

thats interesting i always thought the primary responsibilty would be to not sleep with the kings wife in the first place, which is a crime, and not have sex with your sister a modern westeros taboo. im sorry after the incident with bran i dont think he cares much for children.

"Once he found the Blackfish, he would be free to return to King’s Landing, where he belonged. My place is with my king. With my son. Would Tommen want to know that? The truth could cost the boy his throne. Would you sooner have a father or a chair, lad? Jaime wished he knew the answer."

--George R. R. Martin. A Feast for Crows.

"He thought of Myrcella. I will need to tell her too. The Dornishmen might not like that. Doran Martell had betrothed her to his son in the belief that she was Robert’s blood. Knots and tangles, Jaime thought, wishing he could cut through all of it with one swift stroke of his sword."

--George R. R. Martin. A Dance with Dragons.

"I’m not ashamed of loving you, only of the things I’ve done to hide it. That boy at Winterfell . . ."

--George R. R. Martin. A Storm of Swords.

you mean like selmy and brienne sure.

The same Selmy Dany just pardoned for treason after he switched alliances not once, but twice? Or Brienne who lied to Jaime when last we saw her?

every oath he already broke will be his undoing.

You're half right. The oaths he's kept and the oaths he's broken will be his undoing.

oh Jamie believes he's coming around a corner alright, but its not gonna happen. he'll probably end up fighting tyrion for casterly rock and strangling cersie, in this next confrontation killing brienne

Even Cersei, the person who knows Jaime best, can't comprehend that he could have changed as much as he has:

""No one knows. We’ve had no further word of him. The woman may have been the Evenstar’s daughter, Lady Brienne."

Her. The queen remembered the Maid of Tarth, a huge, ugly, shambling thing who dressed in man’s mail. Jaime would never abandon me for such a creature. My raven never reached him, elsewise he would have come."

--George R. R. Martin. A Dance with Dragons.

No, jamie ran off with Brienne, because deep down he likes her, she's everything he's not. If he truly wanted to find sansa he would've hired sell swords and the whole nine yards.

He couldn't hire anyone to go after Sansa. Who could you trust with the only (known) living child of Eddard Stark? Who wouldn't use her for their own gain? Certainly not mercenaries. Jaime sends the only person in the world whose motives he can trust. Jaime sends Brienne with the best of intentions:

"Unbidden, his thoughts went to Brienne of Tarth. Stupid stubborn ugly wench. He wondered where she was. Father, give her strength. Almost a prayer . . ."

--George R. R. Martin. A Feast for Crows.

a heroic thing is something that is done selflessly for others Jamie serves his own interests.

His treatment of Brienne and Pia are probably the best examples of kindness without self interest, though if I had the time I could argue several other cases. Even Jaime can't come up with a motive for his kindness in this passage:

"Stupid stubborn brave bitch. She was going to get herself good and killed, he knew it. And what do I care if she does? If she hadn’t been so pigheaded, I’d still have a hand. Yet he heard himself whisper, "Let them do it, and go away inside.""

--George R. R. Martin. A Storm of Swords.

even if he tries in his point of view chapters to convince himself otherwise. in the end game when tyrion takes him down it will be epic. i hope bran wargs a dragon and eats him.

Now you're being honest. You hate Jaime. Fine. Cool. Stick with posting about your feelings, rather than baseless arguments denying his actual toughts and actions.

[Alty732]

My questions is redemption for what? He was never a bad man. Bad men do things out of the cruelness of their heart. Jaime pushed bran to save the love of his life. Jaime saved kingslanding. Jaime planned on giving arya and sansa back even before he was friends with brienne. He attacked ned and his men because he was worried about his brother. I'm not saying the choices werent rash but they had heart behind them.

The loss of Jaimes hand just made him realize he didn't like how his life had went, he wasnt a great knight, just a fighter and a killer. Putting on the white cloak ruined his life, but now he has realized he cant just let the wait of his kingslaying hold him down and he needs to become the knight he always wanted to be.

He's becoming the man he always wanted to be, after he lost his way for such a long time.

[WardenOfTheNorth]

My questions is redemption for what? He was never a bad man. Bad men do things out of the cruelness of their heart. Jaime pushed bran to save the love of his life. Jaime saved kingslanding. Jaime planned on giving arya and sansa back even before he was friends with brienne. He attacked ned and his men because he was worried about his brother. I'm not saying the choices werent rash but they had heart behind them.

The loss of Jaimes hand just made him realize he didn't like how his life had went, he wasnt a great knight, just a fighter and a killer. Putting on the white cloak ruined his life, but now he has realized he cant just let the wait of his kingslaying hold him down and he needs to become the knight he always wanted to be.

He's becoming the man he always wanted to be, after he lost his way for such a long time.

Bran was 7. I doubt he even understood what he saw. That action of his is inexcusable.

[Alty732]

Bran was 7. I doubt he even understood what he saw. That action of his is inexcusable.

Obvioulsy it is because in interveiws (I'll post them soon) GRRM talks about the grey morality of the whole situation. George didn't write it to show how "evil" jaime is, he did it to show what jaime would do for love.

[locke and key]

Bran was 7. I doubt he even understood what he saw. That action of his is inexcusable.

But just cos he didn't understand it doesn't mean he wouldn't blurt it out to ned or robert, also he may have had a better understanding of this than seven year olds in our world as being in westeros he'd likely be surrounded by this idea they have of women being for only wedding and bedding

[Evil Jay]

Umm he plans on telling everyone about the incest, so yea I think he's changed.

"He thought of Myrcella. I will need to tell her too. The Dornishmen might not like that. Doran Martell had betrothed her to his son in the belief that she was Robert’s blood. Knots and tangles, Jaime thought, wishing he could cut through all of it with one swift stroke of his sword."

Good catch, as that highlights one good example of how he IS on a redemption arc (Like it or not). There's no arguing that he THINKS he is on one himself. Personally speaking, I favor UnCat over Jaime, and I don't care for Jaime much. That said, he does have a storyline that I like, and I also believe he is on a redemption arc.

[mi recuerdo en tus ojos]

I think a "redemption arc" implies that anything can be forgiven, or at the very least that you can atone for past mistakes and the good washes out the bad. This, I think, would be a little too simplistic in the universe of ASOIAF. I think Jaime is on an journey that involves him taking moral responsibility for his actions, and that's no small thing after decades of moral apathy. There's a tendency in fandom to go to extremes, but I think it's worth mentioning he is neither a villain incapable of good deeds nor a blameless saint who was manipulated by his family. He is a man who is genuinely capable of kindness and remarkable acts of bravery, but who has also been complicit in the many abuses the Lannisters have committed, and who tried to murder a child, even if he did it to protect his family. Are his good intentions and transformation post-ASOS enough for readers to forgive him? Possibly (it's enough for me, but then again, I never lost a family member to him or his family). But the narrative is going to make him pay, I have little doubt of it. I think the best Jaime can possibly hope for is either an unsung hero's death or getting sent to the wall as the last Lannister standing when all this is over.

[The Broke Howard Hughes]

In order to be redeemed you have to accept and atone for your crimes and sins, Jamie doesn't seem the least bit sorry for what he's done. Maybe NOW he'd do things differently but he doesn't strike me as sorry at all.

[mi recuerdo en tus ojos]

"I am not ashamed of loving you, only of the things I've done to hide it" - doesn't sound like the words of an unrepentant man entirely lacking in self-awareness to me. What he is not sorry of is killing the king, and I am with him there.

[Budj]

Jaime Lannister - a weak-willed pawn controlled by his father and sister that ironically found the inner strength to rise above them after the loss of his strongest natural talent.

I view our first glimpse of Jaime in aGoT as an onion. Under the layers of Tywin's will and Cersei's manipulations (I'm not convinced she truly ever loved him) he learned to react first with his sword hand and think later. A learned reaction that led him down a heinous path enforced by the treatment he received for killing Aerys.

When he finally lost that hand (and happened to meet Brienne who represents knightly ideals) he had to think for himself to survive - he couldn't 'shoot first' and ask questions later. He was forced to face the hard truths of his reputation (via his arrogance and kneejerk reactions) and after he was able to see his father and sister for what they are he freed himself to act how he wanted to.

I definitely think he is on a redemption arc. I think the boy that wanted to be Arthur Dayne was always there and he just needed a wake up call (or a blue flaming dream sword)... unfortunately it coincided with the loss of his fighting talent (for the time being) but I think that adds to the interest of his arc. He can't wash out what he's done, but he can choose to live out the rest of his life trying to make up for his old self through more virtuous actions. I am very interested in his story and at the very least hope to read his pov until close to the end.

[Lady Seaworth]

I think I'd want to class it as a redemption arc just because we can see Jaime improving as a person (saving Brienne, trying to avoid spilling Tully blood, breaking away from Cersei, feeling a greater sense of responsibility for his children).

I don't think the good deeds necessarily wash out the bad - I'm pretty sure we're not supposed to just put Jaime's bad deeds aside - but the character development he's undergoing is enough to put him on an upwards trajectory. In my opinion he's moving in the direction of redemption, but the question of whether he can truly achieve it is up in the air.

I think the best Jaime can possibly hope for is either an unsung hero's death or getting sent to the wall as the last Lannister standing when all this is over.

Jaime's journey starting with a white cloak and ending with a black cloak would be very nice, especially if this is a redemption arc. I like the idea that while he's wearing the Kingsguard cloak (associated with honour, chivalry etc.) we see him as a pretty horrible guy, but when he gains the black cloak of the Night's Watch (which we might associate with the criminality of some men sent to the Wall), he's redeemed and a much better person than White Cloak Jaime.

[Fetch me a block]

"I am not ashamed of loving you, only of the things I've done to hide it" - doesn't sound like the words of an unrepentant man entirely lacking in self-awareness to me. What he is not sorry of is killing the king, and I am with him there.

Killing the King was actually good, considering the King he killed, but apart from that he was a cunt. Still is

[The Broke Howard Hughes]

"I am not ashamed of loving you, only of the things I've done to hide it" - doesn't sound like the words of an unrepentant man entirely lacking in self-awareness to me. What he is not sorry of is killing the king, and I am with him there.

After he pushed Bran he was totally absent of any remorse. He didn't seem at all sorry, regardless of what he said. Although I agree killing the king was actually brave and unselfish. Not explaining why he did it was a dick move.

[mi recuerdo en tus ojos]

After he pushed Bran he was totally absent of any remorse.

There's nothing in GoT or aCoK that point to Jaime feeling any remorse over it, this is true, and he's pretty vile about it. But he does, right after that quote from ASOS, seem to hint that the business with Bran is one of those things he did out of love for Cersei that he's now ashamed of. He does not admit any weakness to Cat on that matter, sure, but why would he? He's having too much fun winding her up and trying to expose her for a hypocrite with all the talk of honour and loyalty that the Starks have but he seems to lack. And we know what he's like: he loves putting up a front of mockery and arrogance as if willing people to despise him. Would he say he's sorry? Hell no. He's too arrogant to want people's pity.

[Nymeria_Snow]

To me he can never really be redeemed. "Kingslayer" is a harsh title for an action which I think was probably for the best, but how about we call him "Childcrippler" instead?

[Lady Seaworth]

To me he can never really be redeemed. "Kingslayer" is a harsh title for an action which I think was probably for the best, but how about we call him "Childcrippler" instead?

"Jaime the Defenestrator."

[MCBC]

I think it's more of a realization arc. He has woken up & seen the hard truth in the things he has done, how he was acting & he also see's the truth about some of the people in his life. I don't think he will ever be redeemed or thought of positively in the Kingsguard book like he wants because in the ASOIAF universe once you stain your reputation, it's pretty hard to change it.

If the Lannisters get overthrown, the incest & passing off your children as heirs to the throne will be a big part of his legacy.

[JaimeTheMannister]

Who saved Kings landing? And brienne? And is trying to save the dumbest character Sansa aka the cause of half of the problems in Westeros? I don't think anything needs to be redeemed except for the Bran thing that was literally a low blow but even that I can understand why it was done. I wouldn't have been able to bring myself to hurt a young kid just because he accidentally caught me. But then again if i didnt push bran, then robert would find out and that would be the end of me and my family

No redemption needed.