How is Jaime Lannister on a redemption arc?

[IRON BANK]

Jamie is a complex character for sure, its really weird in dance when he's in the riverlands and says something to the effect of "it feels good to be dispensing real justice", kind of like. I hope everyone forgets about, my incest, stabbing a king in the back, freeing my fathers killer, running away from my responsibilities as a father, breaking my oathes of knight hood, my oath to Catelyn, Now i'm just gonna live, life. No ones gonna hold that against me now. Todays the day I'm gonna change. I see a long road ahead for him and because of his previous actions i dont see him doing what is right. for evry one i see alot more grey. and alot more one sided ness. He's just to much a creature of habit.

[Chickren]

I hope everyone forgets about, my incest

He's actually planning to expose his incest to the light of day, and doesn't want anyone to forget it, ever. He's not ashamed of his sexual activity with another consenting adult.

stabbing a king in the back

Which king did he stab in the back? If you mean metaphorically, with regard to him killing Aerys, what would you have had him do? Let Aerys and his cronies blow up KL?

freeing my fathers killer

He freed his brother, who was sentenced to die for a crime he didn't commit. He didn't know Tyrion would later (as in *after* he freed him) kill Tywin.

running away from my responsibilities as a father

I think a parent's primary responsibility would be keeping their children alive. Doing that meant Jaime couldn't take up any other responsibilities. Note that as soon as Robert's gone, Jaime wants to marry Cersei and make his kids heirs to Casterly Rock.

breaking my oathes of knight hood

Like protect the weak and innocent? So just like every other knight in Westeros, then?

my oath to Catelyn

Which oath has he broken? His unwillingness to break those oaths will probably be his undoing.

Now i'm just gonna live, life. No ones gonna hold that against me now. Todays the day I'm gonna change.

No one is more aware that he can't leave his past behind than Jaime. He stews on it, he laughs about it, he even rages about it. You'll have to show me the passage where he says something as mundane as "Today's the day I'm gonna change."

I see a long road ahead for him and because of his previous actions i dont see him doing what is right. for evry one i see alot more grey. and alot more one sided ness. He's just to much a creature of habit.

His road is long, and will probably end in a violent death. And he's certainly a charcter of greys. But a creature of habit? He's just broken off a lifelong love affair, resolved to tell both of his children he's their father, done everything he possibly can to make Tommen safe by ending the war, ended said war with ruthless negotiation rather than bloodshed, and when last we see him has dropped everything to try to save Sansa Stark.

Jaime Lannister isn't a good man. He's an *actual* man, who's done awful things, but also done heroic things. He's a man who has been very clearly shown to be on a redemptive arc.

[David Selig]

We could begin by saying pre-meditated murder is generally considered a worse crime than a crime of passion, but the important thing is that Robert doing something despicable to protect his family is no worse than Jaime doing the same. The difference is only in your perception.

There's a huge difference actually. Robert was doing it not just to protect his family, his intention was to prevent a war which is a his job as the king and if it worked, would've saved many thousands of lives. Dany was part of a plan for a conquest of Westeros. Robert's was a problematic decision morally, for sure, but it can be defended much more easily than what Jaime did.

Jaime was covering up his crime and wasn't protecting anyone but himself and his immediate family.

[Cas Stark]

There's a huge difference actually. Robert was doing not just to protect his family, his intention was to prevent a war which is a his job as the king and if it worked, would've saved many thousands of lives. Dany was part of a plan for a conquest of Westeros. Robert's was a problematic decision morally, for sure, but it can be defended much more easily than what Jaime did.

Jaime was covering up his crime and wasn't protecting anyone but himself and his immediate family.

There are a lot of differences. Ordering the political assassination of the best living claimant to your throne in order to prevent them from in future landing in Westeros with an army, which you have done, in public, with the approval of your council members, in a deliberative fashion...maybe repulsive to the modern reader, but to me, it doesn't compare to pushing a kid out a window because he saw you having sex wtih your sister. It's also a huge stretch that Jamie did this to protect anyone but himself and Cersei since he shows absolutely no interest in his own children until the last book and even then its minimal.

Also, worth noting that he didn't order her assassination until she married Khal Drogo and he felt there was a real danger from her. He surely could have had her and her brother assassinated years earlier. And lastly, Robert ultimately changes his mind and rescinds the order.

[Boy and Girl Wadish]

Jaime Lannister is on a redemption arc just because he's originally not an arrogant, pompous man. The white cloak soiled him and I think because of the events that happened to him (his capture by Robb, his "adventures" or rather, misadventures with Brienne) he's determined to be the boy he was once, full of potential greatness, greatness not because of his supposed traitorous act of killing the king he was supposed to protect, but greatness in a positive light. From his POVs you can tell he started to change and reflect on what he has done. I particularly like the part in AFFC (or was it in ASOS) when he returned to KL and assumed his position as Commander of the Kingsguard. There was this moment when he was all alone and he was reading a book wherein the information about the various Kingsguard were written, and noticed how insignificant his achievements were in comparison to say, Arthur Dayne or Selmy. Then he said something about writing in a new blank page. I thought of it as Jaime wanting to change, to not always rely on bloodshed and fighting when it comes to resolving conflicts. A concrete example would be the siege of Riverrun where he managed to break the siege and get Edmure to yield without shedding a single blood just to honor the vow he made to Catelyn Stark.

I have a lot of Jaime Lannister feels. I used to think that Tyrion was my favorite Lannister but it all changed because JAIME.

[Chickren]

There are a lot of differences. Ordering the political assassination of the best living claimant to your throne in order to prevent them from in future landing in Westeros with an army, which you have done, in public, with the approval of your council members, in a deliberative fashion...maybe repulsive to the modern reader, but to me, it doesn't compare to pushing a kid out a window because he saw you having sex wtih your sister. It's also a huge stretch that Jamie did this to protect anyone but himself and Cersei since he shows absolutely no interest in his own children until the last book and even then its minimal.

Child murder equates to child murder. All you're arguing is justification. And I think Robert was protecting himself and his dynasty, just as Jaime was....you could even make the same argument about Jaime preventing a war, as a war broke out when the truth was revealed.

Also, worth noting that he didn't order her assassination until she married Khal Drogo and he felt there was a real danger from her. He surely could have had her and her brother assassinated years earlier.

So Robert didn't try to kill Dany until she was a threat?

Same logic: Jaime didn't push Bran out of a window until he became a threat.

The only difference here is your perception.

[The Wolves]

He's not on a redemption arc and still doesn't seem to be going that way. Jamie haven't done anything to say he is on a redemption arc.

The only reason he feels any type of guilt because of Bran is because how it affects Jamie. He only started to "change" because his sword hand was taken from him and he still doesn't show enough regret or remorse. He blames everything on other people like blaming Cersei for his actions. He starts a war and feels no remorse for the thousands of lives he helped destroy and murder. He's worthless.

[Fetch me a block]

Jaime haters gonna hate :laugh:

you just have to realize that there are a lot of characters beside Starks, Dany and the Imp

Don't really like Dany and right now the Imp's story is quite boring. I like Stannis, most of the Greyjoys, the Tyrells, the Martells (apart from Doran) etc. Most people in the series, I just cannot stand Lannisters

[Fetch me a block]

Jaime Lannister is on a redemption arc just because he's originally not an arrogant, pompous man. The white cloak soiled him and I think because of the events that happened to him (his capture by Robb, his "adventures" or rather, misadventures with Brienne) he's determined to be the boy he was once, full of potential greatness, greatness not because of his supposed traitorous act of killing the king he was supposed to protect, but greatness in a positive light. From his POVs you can tell he started to change and reflect on what he has done. I particularly like the part in AFFC (or was it in ASOS) when he returned to KL and assumed his position as Commander of the Kingsguard. There was this moment when he was all alone and he was reading a book wherein the information about the various Kingsguard were written, and noticed how insignificant his achievements were in comparison to say, Arthur Dayne or Selmy. Then he said something about writing in a new blank page. I thought of it as Jaime wanting to change, to not always rely on bloodshed and fighting when it comes to resolving conflicts. A concrete example would be the siege of Riverrun where he managed to break the siege and get Edmure to yield without shedding a single blood just to honor the vow he made to Catelyn Stark.

I have a lot of Jaime Lannister feels. I used to think that Tyrion was my favorite Lannister but it all changed because JAIME.

I sort of understand, but I just can't comprehend the fact that people are actually rooting for him and consider him a good person

[locke and key]

I sort of understand, but I just can't comprehend the fact that people are actually rooting for him and consider him a good person

Becasue ultimately, people's previous actions actions don't define them, their character does, Jaime did some bad things in the past but nearly every character has, arya killed 2 guards does that make her a horrible person?, Davos smuggled illegal goods to storms end and saved many lives, just because he smuggled that food does that make him a 'good for nothing' Criminal? The reason Jaime is on a redemptive arc is because he's learning to change his ways and make amends for some of the terrible things he's done. He's trying to be a good man and keep westeros (in particular the riverlands) together through justice while protecting his family from those who try to undermine it. Ultimately, many people in westeros do bad things, does that mean we should judge them on those actions or their motivations for doing them.For instance, by killing King aerys he was murdering, commiting treason and oathbreaking, However, he didn't kill him to do those things, he killed him, to prevent the suffering of millions from the igniting of caches of wildfire across the city.

[locke and key]

Don't really like Dany and right now the Imp's story is quite boring. I like Stannis, most of the Greyjoys, the Tyrells, the Martells (apart from Doran) etc. Most people in the series, I just cannot stand Lannisters

Why not Lannisters? it sounds like you like the imp and he is a lannister

[locke and key]

Child murder equates to child murder. All you're arguing is justification. And I think Robert was protecting himself and his dynasty, just as Jaime was....you could even make the same argument about Jaime preventing a war, as a war broke out when the truth was revealed.

So Robert didn't try to kill Dany until she was a threat?

Same logic: Jaime didn't push Bran out of a window until he became a threat.

The only difference here is your perception.

:agree:. Jaime gets too much flak for pushing bran out that window, were I in that situation, I'd probably do the same thing and like his It would probably weigh down on my conscience a lot, I can't think of anyway of silencing bran without hurting/threatening him. I don't think anyone would be so honourable that they'd let bran go and let a secret out that would get them killed

[Winterfellian]

He's not on a redemption arc and still doesn't seem to be going that way. Jamie haven't done anything to say he is on a redemption arc.

The only reason he feels any type of guilt because of Bran is because how it affects Jamie. He only started to "change" because his sword hand was taken from him and he still doesn't show enough regret or remorse. He blames everything on other people like blaming Cersei for his actions. He starts a war and feels no remorse for the thousands of lives he helped destroy and murder. He's worthless.

Personally I don't necessarily see him in a redemption arch as of yet. For me he's in a journey of self discovery that in thus has led him in a desire to evaluate and redefine who he is. This might lead into a redemption in time.

How did Bran's fault affect him personally? Did he loose his hand because of Bran? Did Cersei spurned him at his return to KG because of Bran? Did he fell in Robb's trap and ended up a prisoner during most of ACOK as a result of Bran's fault? No. He doesn't regret it because his misfortunes developed as a direct cause for pushing Bran. He's ashamed of his own actions because he's in a turning point from the pompous, selfish individual he was at the beginning of his story. If he were regretting it just because of the trouble Bran's fall cause for him, wouldn't it be the same with Aerys' murder? If anything, this affected him more than pushing Bran since it marked him as a kingslayer forever and yet he doesn't regret that to the point he even regards it as his finest act.

Where do you get the feeling he blames other people? Maybe at first, but not anymore. Just look at the scene where he's standing in Tywin's vigil. He places most of the blame of what happened to himself.

About Cersei. I don't get he blames her for his actions, but rather that he's opening his eyes to the incompetent fool she is.

Excuse me but saying that Jaime is solely responsible for starting a war is as ridiculous as saying that Catelyn started the WOT5K when she kidnapped Tyrion. Yes Jaime and Cersei both played a part in what happened because of their relationship, but by focusing on just one person or action you are not taking into account the independent actions of all the other characters that acted in their own free will in a manner that contributed to the chaos that was the WOT5K. Plus if anyone deserves credit for that war is Littelfinger and none other.

[The Wolves]

Becasue ultimately, people's previous actions actions don't define them, their character does

But don't your actions make your character? And your actions no matter if they are in the present or past does have relevance on you as a person.

And Jamie's actions have cost thousands of people so much to try and say that his past actions shouldn't be judged and defined when because of his actions people women, men, and children alike have lost their families, homes, friends, innocents and so much more because of Jamie Lannister's actions and he feels NO responsibility to what he have caused or NO remorse yeah his actions have defined Jamie.

Also what have Jamie done to atone for his many many many many sins? He jumped in to save Brienne from a bear? And when did he try to right his wrongs for pushing Bran out a window? When did he try to atone for the war that his family so unjustly unleashed onto Westeros? He was fighting right with them.

And Jamie killing the Mad King he gets no props for because his father than sacked a city and killed a innocent woman and her two babies all the while Jamie piece of shit Lannister sat on the Iron Thron and thinks he deserves credit he deserves to burn in hell a billion times over

[Cas Stark]

It's two things. Is he on a redemption arc? Yes. He is trying to be a better person and has made some strides in that direction.

Second, to me more important question, is can he be redeemed? Answer: no. His crimes are too great. Theon, too, is past redemption, but at least his crimes were done reluctantly even when he was committing them, and they all left a bad taste in his mouth. Jamie Lannister barely regrets pushing Bran out of the tower window and he still is mostly about feeling sorry for himself and wants to reclaim his legacy, its not about doing the right thing for the sake of doing it.

[David Selig]

Jaime Lannister is on a redemption arc just because he's originally not an arrogant, pompous man.

I don't know, IMO all of his memories from his teenage years seem to indicate that he was always an arrogant SOB. It's hard not to be when you are raised by Tywin and so good with the sword.

[The Wolves]

Personally I don't necessarily see him in a redemption arch as of yet. For me he's in a journey of self discovery that in thus has led him in a desire to evaluate and redefine who he is. This might lead into a redemption in time.

How did Bran's fault affect him personally? Did he loose his hand because of Bran? Did Cersei spurned him at his return to KG because of Bran? Did he fell in Robb's trap and ended up a prisoner during most of ACOK as a result of Bran's fault? No. He doesn't regret it because his misfortunes developed as a direct cause for pushing Bran. He's ashamed of his own actions because he's in a turning point from the pompous, selfish individual he was at the beginning of his story. If he were regretting it just because of the trouble Bran's fall cause for him, wouldn't it be the same with Aerys' murder? If anything, this affected him more than pushing Bran since it marked him as a kingslayer forever and yet he doesn't regret that to the point he even regards it as his finest act.

Where do you get the feeling he blames other people? Maybe at first, but not anymore. Just look at the scene where he's standing in Tywin's vigil. He places most of the blame of what happened to himself.

About Cersei. I don't get he blames her for his actions, but rather that he's opening his eyes to the incompetent fool she is.

Excuse me but saying that Jaime is solely responsible for starting a war is as ridiculous as saying that Catelyn started the WOT5K when she kidnapped Tyrion. Yes Jaime and Cersei both played a part in what happened because of their relationship, but by focusing on just one person or action you are not taking into account the independent actions of all the other characters that acted in their own free will in a manner that contributed to the chaos that was the WOT5K. Plus if anyone deserves credit for that war is Littelfinger and none other.

I said that the reason Jamie feels any type of guilt for pushing Bran out a window was because how it affected Jamie. I have also blamed many others for TWot5Ks but Jamie is a major major part of the reason it happened and should take some blame for what has happened to the thousands of lives he helped destroy in his process to fuck his sister.

[Chickren]

Second, to me more important question, is can he be redeemed? Answer: no. His crimes are too great. Theon, too, is past redemption, but at least his crimes were done reluctantly even when he was committing them, and they all left a bad taste in his mouth. Jamie Lannister barely regrets pushing Bran out of the tower window and he still is mostly about feeling sorry for himself and wants to reclaim his legacy, its not about doing the right thing for the sake of doing it.

This is a totally legit argument. You can still dislike Jaime and think he's past redemption, without negating his redemptive arc.

[JMJ]

I don't know, IMO all of his memories from his teenage years seem to indicate that he was always an arrogant SOB. It's hard not to be when you are raised by Tywin and so good with the sword.

Good point. And the irony is that what should have been his crowning achievement, getting appointed to the KG at such a young age, not only turned out to be a major push for him in the wrong direction, but that the appointment was as much for his skill as for the political maneuvering between Aerys and Tywin.

[Winterfellian]

I said that the reason Jamie feels any type of guilt for pushing Bran out a window was because how it affected Jamie. I have also blamed many others for TWot5Ks but Jamie is a major major part of the reason it happened and should take some blame for what has happened to the thousands of lives he helped destroy in his process to fuck his sister.

But I don't understand why do you think it affected him so much that he regrets what he did just because the effects Bran's falll had on him. What serious misfortune befell on him as a direct result of Bran's fall?

This is why I cite the example with Aerys. Killing Aerys' affected him personally more than what happened to Bran. He got stuck with the reputation of kingslayer and having shit for honor and his sister and lover married the man who succeeded Aerys at the throne. Following your logic that he only expresses regret when things affects him personally he ought to be regretful of having killed Aerys and this far from being the case.

Second, to me more important question, is can he be redeemed? Answer: no. His crimes are too great. Theon, too, is past redemption, but at least his crimes were done reluctantly even when he was committing them, and they all left a bad taste in his mouth. Jamie Lannister barely regrets pushing Bran out of the tower window and he still is mostly about feeling sorry for himself and wants to reclaim his legacy, its not about doing the right thing for the sake of doing it.

I agree with Chricken that is a valid question and one worth exploring and debating. So far, I think he has taken a few steps towards that direction but he is still far from a complete redemption.