Blackfish Tully Posted March 11, 2013 Share Posted March 11, 2013 I don't think he is on a redemption arc, because I don't think he really needs one. There is only one genuinely bad act that he has done, pushing Bran out the window, while there are numerous acts that are downright heroic and selfless.Jaime isn't some evil doer who has spent his life doing bad and now wants to do good. He is just a guy who was an arrogant jerk and now wants to do some good. No need for redemption in my opinion.What about the fact that he lied about Tysha being a whore and allowed her to be raped by the entire Lannister guard. Tyrion was 13 so Tysha could not have been much older so she was no more than a child and for this poor innocent girl to be raped multiple times why Jamie Lannister did nothing to stop it .Do not give me this bull crap about he couldn't do anything about it because he was under the influence of his father, Jamie was 21 at the time and a member of the Kingsguard so he should have been able to stand up to his father. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baelor Swyft Posted March 11, 2013 Share Posted March 11, 2013 Stand up to Tywin Lannister? Something few men in the realm can do, let alone his own son. Regular people often grow up seeing their regular ole' dads as being larger than life. Add that predisposition to a man as immense and intimidating as Tywin Lannister...The person I blame in that is Tyrion. He may not have been able to stop it but... he freaking joined in. That's one of the most despicable acts in the series so far iyam. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Leftwich Posted March 11, 2013 Share Posted March 11, 2013 As recently he said in AFFC to Ilyn Payne that if he caught Arya at the Trident he would have killed her.Not then, he said it present tense as he still would for Cersei.Oh and also said he would have killed Robert if he woke up while he was having sex with his sister."He wouldn't have been the first king to die by my blade".Jaime is saying these things to Payne in a way of reminiscing about how he dislikes those things about himself. He takes his frustration out by having Payne beat him, it is a kind of penance."If His Grace had woken I would have killed him there and then. He would not have been the first king to die upon my sword . . . but you know that story, don’t you?” He slashed at a tree branch, shearing it in half. “As I was fucking her, Cersei cried, ‘I want.’ I thought that she meant me, but it was the Stark girl that she wanted, maimed or dead.” The things I do for love. “It was only by chance that Stark’s own men found the girl before me. If I had come on her first . . .”" AFfC p. 459 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ARYa_Nym Posted March 11, 2013 Share Posted March 11, 2013 Agreed, op. I don't have the energy to go into detail but a few points.I would also like to add that I blame him for Ned's men deaths specifically Jory.I don't see the doing good for House Stark. Besides, he said nothing when Jeyne Poole was being sent North so that the Boltons could steal the North.I don't see remorse if he just blames everything on Cersei. That isn't taking responsibility imo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaime FTW Posted March 11, 2013 Share Posted March 11, 2013 What about the fact that he lied about Tysha being a whore and allowed her to be raped by the entire Lannister guard. Tyrion was 13 so Tysha could not have been much older so she was no more than a child and for this poor innocent girl to be raped multiple times why Jamie Lannister did nothing to stop it .Do not give me this bull crap about he couldn't do anything about it because he was under the influence of his father, Jamie was 21 at the time and a member of the Kingsguard so he should have been able to stand up to his father.Jaime didn't know anything about raping Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaime FTW Posted March 11, 2013 Share Posted March 11, 2013 Agreed, op. I don't have the energy to go into detail but a few points.I would also like to add that I blame him for Ned's men deaths specifically Jory.I don't see the doing good for House Stark. Besides, he said nothing when Jeyne Poole was being sent North so that the Boltons could steal the North.I don't see remorse if he just blames everything on Cersei. That isn't taking responsibility imo.and what he could say about Jeyne? she was a part of a deal with Boltons. and Lannister always pay his debts. after that he gave sword to Brienne to find Sansa Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaime FTW Posted March 11, 2013 Share Posted March 11, 2013 the most annoying thing is when Jaime saved this bloody Imp from death and told him truth about Tysha, the Imp didn't even thank him. this pisses me off. Tyrion was twice blamed from murdering the king, Jaime's son, but Jaime saved him despite that. and you say that Jaime is a bad person? c'mon man Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaveSnow House Stark Posted March 11, 2013 Share Posted March 11, 2013 Did I miss something, didn't she choose to have sex with the Lannister guards for silver? I am still reading the 2nd book so maybe the wording is different than the tv series.As for Jaime, hated him early on, now he is one of my favorite charactors. There is no excuse for Bran, but other than that he is not much different than Robb. He is doing what he was taught and trained by his family. He is a Lannister, of course he is warring with the Starks, they are the enemy who wrongfully kidnapped Tyrion and imprisoned him. I am a Stark fan first and foremost but a lot of the blame for all of this goes back to them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ARYa_Nym Posted March 11, 2013 Share Posted March 11, 2013 and what he could say about Jeyne? she was a part of a deal with Boltons. and Lannister always pay his debts. after that he gave sword to Brienne to find SansaHe sent Brienne on a fool's errand. A sword btw which belonged to the Starks.He's complicit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackfish Tully Posted March 11, 2013 Share Posted March 11, 2013 the most annoying thing is when Jaime saved this bloody Imp from death and told him truth about Tysha, the Imp didn't even thank him. this pisses me off. Tyrion was twice blamed from murdering the king, Jaime's son, but Jaime saved him despite that. and you say that Jaime is a bad person? c'mon manThank him? Jamie lied to Tyrion about his wife being a whore and that same wife was raped by an entire barracks of men and then she was sent of to god knows where and Tyrion has spent the rest of his life thinking that she was a whore and then his brother , the one person in the world he truly trusts , tells him that it was all a lie and she really was not a whore and did love him and was just a young innocent girl who was betrayed and raped so a father can teach his son a lesson and he is supposed to thank him for that.Jamie is lucky Tyrion did not put a crossbow bolt into him as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackfish Tully Posted March 11, 2013 Share Posted March 11, 2013 Did I miss something, didn't she choose to have sex with the Lannister guards for silver? I am still reading the 2nd book so maybe the wording is different than the tv series.As for Jaime, hated him early on, now he is one of my favorite charactors. There is no excuse for Bran, but other than that he is not much different than Robb. He is doing what he was taught and trained by his family. He is a Lannister, of course he is warring with the Starks, they are the enemy who wrongfully kidnapped Tyrion and imprisoned him. I am a Stark fan first and foremost but a lot of the blame for all of this goes back to them.From what I remember she was raped by the whole barracks and given a piece of silver for each man who raped her and then Tywin forced Tyrion to rape her and she was given a piece of gold for that , because he was a Lannister. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaime FTW Posted March 11, 2013 Share Posted March 11, 2013 Thank him? Jamie lied to Tyrion about his wife being a whore and that same wife was raped by an entire barracks of men and then she was sent of to god knows where and Tyrion has spent the rest of his life thinking that she was a whore and then his brother , the one person in the world he truly trusts , tells him that it was all a lie and she really was not a whore and did love him and was just a young innocent girl who was betrayed and raped so a father can teach his son a lesson and he is supposed to thank him for that.Jamie is lucky Tyrion did not put a crossbow bolt into him as well.Imp is lucky that his head wasn't cut Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chickren Posted March 11, 2013 Share Posted March 11, 2013 You may not be enjoying Jaime's story, but it's difficult to deny he's on a redemptive arc. ASOS and AFFC are pretty much filled with him ruminating on where his life went wrong and then changing how he goes forward. To the point that he's willing to pull his kid(s) off the throne. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drstrangelove Posted March 11, 2013 Share Posted March 11, 2013 Yeah. I think he gets too much grief for the Bran thing. Sure it was a terrible thing to do, but it was a snap decision made in a moment of panic. Compare that to Robert Baratheon who spends months planning the murder of a teenage girl in cold blood. Robert's crime is surely the more heinous, but the fan hate really doesn't reflect that.Robert Baretheon planning the murder of a teenage girl is not merely as it seems. He is eliminating someone who will rise up and rebel against his throne. Now say what you want about the morality of that, but it is no where near as bad as pushing Bran out the window IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chickren Posted March 11, 2013 Share Posted March 11, 2013 Robert Baretheon planning the murder of a teenage girl is not merely as it seems. He is eliminating someone who will rise up and rebel against his throne. Now say what you want about the morality of that, but it is no where near as bad as pushing Bran out the window IMO.We could begin by saying pre-meditated murder is generally considered a worse crime than a crime of passion, but the important thing is that Robert doing something despicable to protect his family is no worse than Jaime doing the same. The difference is only in your perception. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baelor Swyft Posted March 11, 2013 Share Posted March 11, 2013 We could begin by saying pre-meditated murder is generally considered a worse crime than a crime of passion, but the important thing is that Robert doing something despicable to protect his family is no worse than Jaime doing the same. The difference is only in your perception. :agree:Attempting to kill a child (Bran) seems a pretty strong parallel with attempting to kill a child (Dany). If Jaime and Cersei's incest had been discovered, Robert would have hunted down and killed every Lannister. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMJ Posted March 11, 2013 Share Posted March 11, 2013 It's a little of both.Meaning, there is an arc of redemption happening, in that by AFFC Jaime clearly acts differently than say, in AGOT, and most folks would agree for the better.But, keep in mind that we don't even get Jaime's POV until ASOS, I believe. We never know exactly what Jaime is thinking until he is in Brienne's custody. Once we get more and more of his POV chapters, we see what he is thinking, and that's particularly the case when he talks to the mute Ilyn Payne - BTW, that's a great literary device, IMO. We realize that, unlike his portrayal earlier on by other POV characters, he's not a one-dimensional evil guy, but that he is morally ambiguous and complicated. The Kingslayer moniker precisely points out this issue in that everyone assumes the Kingslayer was just a treacherous man who betrayed his oath as a Kingsguard by murdering Aerys. This is "corroborated" by Ned's observation of Jaime sitting on the IT immediately after the deed. However, we learn from Jaime's POV about the background, ie, that Jaime made the choice to save KL from Aerys' psycho fire-wrath.My point here is that Jaime is indeed on an "arc of redemption", but he did not start from a point of pure evil. Rather, he started in AGOT from a position more as a broken man, unable to live down his Kingslayer moniker. That monkey on his back, along with all the Lannister baggage (Cersei and Tywin specifically) were the obstacles he has had to mainly overcome. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lady m Posted March 12, 2013 Share Posted March 12, 2013 <snip>Fantastic post! To deny Jamie's on a positive arc and has grown as a person since we first met him is to have not read his POV chapters. Jaime is the only Lannister I unequivocally like. Him telling Tywin where to go just made me like him more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alty732 Posted March 12, 2013 Share Posted March 12, 2013 If anyone thinks jaime went from bad to good, they horribly misunderstood his chapters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chickren Posted March 12, 2013 Share Posted March 12, 2013 If anyone thinks jaime went from bad to good, they horribly misunderstood his chapters.Bad and good are droll terms for a GRRM character, no? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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