Was the Red Wedding as useful a plot point as is often claimed?

[Evil Jay]

I'm pretty sure that grrm wasn't so much the revisonist king in this case, as it seems he's already setting up a lot of these storylines in asos with events like the arrival of UnCat, stannis coming to the wall and trying to make jon help him get the allegiacne of the north through offering him a chance to be the next stark in line, arya already going to braavos at the end of asos, LF bringing sansa to the eyrie, mance surrendering, theon being imprisoned by ramsay, rickon disappearing etc

all these events which set up storylines he wrote at the same time as the RW which seems to set them up, the places where grrm kept revising his plans was where the elments of the story were new (dorne, the iron isles and jon con) and where he didn't know when to split adwd and adwd and things like the meereenese knot

Many of these things you list can happen independent of a RW. The one thing we can agree on is that only GRRM knows. I lean towards GRRM knowing what he is the revisionist king of, so I place little on the summary of items you propose that he revised. Nearly everything you and I have both mentioned are things that could easily have been argued as "things he may have revised".

[StarkInWinterfell]

I have never, EVER, had a reaction to a piece of fiction like I had with the Red Wedding... I was actively pissed off. I was angry after Ned's death, but it fed into Robb's arc so well and so soon that Robb became my focal point (as was probably intended for most readers) to finish the story. To get Joffrey in the end, to expose the Lannisters. Then the Red Wedding happened and everything changed. The entire complexion of the series was radically altered in one chapter.

I've thoroughly enjoyed every book in the series and I more than trust GRRM as a writer to finish this epic tale in an emotionally satisfying way, but I don't know if, as a fan, I'll ever get over the Red Wedding.

The part in quotes is exactly how I felt about the Red Wedding. Felt completely distraught to the extent I debated not continuing (and I always finish books) because there seemed no way to come back from that for the Starks. The story might not revolve around them but they're my favourites so in some ways it feels like it does. Of course, I couldn't help it and carried on reading soon after but I think since the RW, every time I read I'm on alert for the possibility of Stark vengeance.

Having said that, the RW was such a fantastic piece of writing. SoS was a brilliant book for many reasons but I think the RW is what elevated that book (and for me the entire series) into a whole other level. Looking back, I thought I was reading the kind of book where Robb eventually would give Sansa Joffrey's head. I learned the hard way that's not the kind of book GRRM is writing. But the RW had an effect on the story even above Robb and Cat's death. There was the massive weakening of that army forces, people captured, the disgust with which everybody now regards the Freys, giving UnCat an excellent reason to become what she is.. Basically, I think what I'm saying in a long, rambly way is that it served the story well so had to be necessary and useful.

I agree with the OP, I'll be gutted if the Starks don't get revenge but am probably slightly less extreme. For the RW, it's Roose Bolton and the Freys that I want punished. I'll be gutted if the story ends without them getting their comeuppance but I'm quietly sure/naively optimistic they will. Tywin aside, I can't blame the Lannisters. A lot of what Jaime's done has been out of loyalty to his family or desire to protect them and I can't hate him for that. I am annoyed that he inspired to Roose to deliver such a clever one-liner before he killed Robb though. And Cersei I don't want to succeed more because she's freakin' nuts than because of anything she's done to the Starks.

[Josephus]

Many of these things you list can happen independent of a RW. The one thing we can agree on is that only GRRM knows. I lean towards GRRM knowing what he is the revisionist king of, so I place little on the summary of items you propose that he revised. Nearly everything you and I have both mentioned are things that could easily have been argued as "things he may have revised".

in one move he is able to set in motion 347289292474 different plot points?

are you proposing an alternative move, or that he could have found ways to start all of those without being contrived?

without the RW, everything changes drastically, and I can't see it coming back to what it is now

[MichaelMjanovic]

No plot armour are you kidding me? If Dany didn't have plot armour as thick as the wall she would have been assassinated by the FM as soon as she attempted to disrupt an entire region's economy.

f

That is not true to say at all. The price exacted by the FM for an assassination of someone of Dany's stature would be far beyond what is possible to pay. Recall that the FM assasinations are not always paid for in gold, jewels or any other strictly material remuneration.

[Cas Stark]

f

That is not true to say at all. The price exacted by the FM for an assassination of someone of Dany's stature would be far beyond what is possible to pay. Recall that the FM assasinations are not always paid for in gold, jewels or any other strictly material remuneration.

How so? It's three cities we are talking about, and they seem to have found money to come back even after she took all their slaves. You're telling me the rich of Astapor, Meereen and Yunkai couldn't scrape together enough gold or "whatever" for one assassination?

[lady m]

How so? It's three cities we are talking about, and they seem to have found money to come back even after she took all their slaves. You're telling me the rich of Astapor, Meereen and Yunkai couldn't scrape together enough gold or "whatever" for one assassination?

Honestly, the FM might do it for a fixed rate of some sort. They do NOT like dragons. They see them as a symbol of subjugation. TKM implies they did something that had a large hand in The Doom, which killed all the dragons that weren't with the Targs. Dany doesn't have control of them, and even if she dismissed she won't live forever and I think the FM might take a calculated risk to get rid of the dragons and the person that brought them back into the world.

No, they don't like slavery, either. But Dany hasn't exactly done a smashing job in her abolition campaign seeing as the slave trade is alive and well in all of Slavers Bay.

[Alty732]

Does everyone remeber the scene the hound in on trial? Everyone in the Brotherhood without Banners is calling out his crimes, and he shows how just because he was associated with the lannisters and his brother, does not make him guilty. Some of you sound like the Brotherhood without Banners.

To be honest I hope no one wins, I don't care who gets vengeance on who, I just trust GRRM

[Lord Godric]

It's interesting that the title of this thread and the original post really don't have much in common. I think most fans root for the Starks and want there to be some justice in the end, but I don't know if I have ever seen anyone actually argue that the Red Wedding wasn't a useful plot point, so I was looking forward to seeing someone argue that. Alas...

[molten the andal]

I'd note emboldened; I do indeed view the Lannisters as evil. Because to me, they are. Only having the Boltons and Freys lose but not also the Lannisters is, to me, the equivalent of not getting the Christmas present you want. If the Starks don't at least crush the Lannisters then that's basically GRRM saying to me that the heroes of the book, your heroes and my heroes, are pathetic, weak and stupid.

I think most of the main Lannister characters will die but I have really funny feeling that GRRM will try to pull the good guys don't always win card. His take is pretty much all the Targaryen are killed leaving only Dany unless you count Aegon which at this point you can't so so leaving just a Stark won't be beyond him but as long as the Freys, Boltons and Lannisters goes down with them I won't care that much.

[DarkAndFullOfTurnips]

After Ned, Robb, and Cat died, Starks just weren't the same for me. Bran is off being a tree. Arya is just completely detached to the point where coming back and being a major player in Stark restoration would be silly. I dont even care if she assassinates all the people on her death list. Sansa is a perpetual catspaw for whom I barely care for since her PoV exists only to present much more interesting and capable characters. Rickon is a fucking infant.

After the RW I basically just rooted for Jon, whom I always liked, and now he's either dead, going to become a zombie, or changed in some way forever so that the old Jon Snow is basically gone. I'm still rooting for him but I know it won't be the same.

House Stark is gone, and even if they come back in some way ill just think meh, who cares. After the RW just destroy that cess pool of a continent and let it crumble. In for a penny, in for a pound.

And as a side note, Robb's marriage to Jeyne would have been an obstacle, not certain death, if their plan to cut off Tywin wasn't ruined by Edmure. The Lannisters and Tyrells joining forces was the end of hopes. They sought the help of Walder Frey as it was their only hope, and a slim one at that, of defeating the Lannisters and Tyrells. Whether Robb married or not would not really matter after the Tyrell and Lannister hosts joined.

[The White Wolf]

As long as nothing happens to Ghost I'll be happy. If anything happens to him I will probably lose it. And I'm not kidding either.

Otherwise, sure the Stark's getting a happy ending would be nice, but I wouldn't be at all upset if they didn't.

As for the actual topic: the RW was a very effective plot point imo. I can't really see where the story would have gone without it, it certainly wouldn't be as interesting that's for sure. I remember reading it for the first time, and even though I had kinda been spoiled I must have sat there with my mouth gaping for a good 15 minutes. I absolutely could not believe what I was reading.

I am really interested to see how show-only fans react to the RW considering how bad their reaction to Ned being killed was. I foresee some broken TVs...

[locke and key]

Does everyone remeber the scene the hound in on trial? Everyone in the Brotherhood without Banners is calling out his crimes, and he shows how just because he was associated with the lannisters and his brother, does not make him guilty. Some of you sound like the Brotherhood without Banners.

To be honest I hope no one wins, I don't care who gets vengeance on who, I just trust GRRM

:agree: Although, IIRC I'm pretty sure the reason why the beric started a trial by battle was too see if the hound was lying or not once he had said this, as he theorised that if he was telling the truth Rhllor would save him

[Evil Jay]

in one move he is able to set in motion 347289292474 different plot points?

are you proposing an alternative move, or that he could have found ways to start all of those without being contrived?

without the RW, everything changes drastically, and I can't see it coming back to what it is now

I disagree. It's an exaggeration to place so much on the "RW starting 347... plot points". I'm saying he could have gone many different routes without having to do the RW. I don't see it as necessary. As a matter of fact, I think it complicates matters a bit too much. That's my personal opinion. I'm not proposing an alternative route, I'm simply saying that if it had not had happened, I'd still enjoy the books. I'm also saying I could think of many different ways the story could have gone without doing the RW, and that it would not affect as many plotlines as you propose. In fact, there are many plot lines in play that are not affected, and many that could have easily been tweaked to carry on without the existence of the RW. If anything, I find the RW to be frustratingly complicating. Cat could have died and became UnCat a number of ways.

[locke and key]

I disagree. It's an exaggeration to place so much on the "RW starting 347... plot points". I'm saying he could have gone many different routes without having to do the RW. I don't see it as necessary. As a matter of fact, I think it complicates matters a bit too much. That's my personal opinion. I'm not proposing an alternative route, I'm simply saying that if it had not had happened, I'd still enjoy the books. I'm also saying I could think of many different ways the story could have gone without doing the RW, and that it would not affect as many plotlines as you propose. In fact, there are many plot lines in play that are not affected, and many that could have easily been tweaked to carry on without the existence of the RW. If anything, I find the RW to be frustratingly complicating. Cat could have died and became UnCat a number of ways.

explain how you propose to tweak

[Evil Jay]

explain how you propose to tweak

I could go on and on, but my time is limited. Feel free to try your hand at it as well, that would give me the impression you're not being argumentative for the sake of being argumentative.

Tweaks? Easy. Robb is still alive and fighting. Realizes it's a trap, sets his own countertrap or makes an escape and limps back north with a rather ragtag force or holes up in Riverrun. I think it's rather lazy to think the effects the RW had on other factions could not have been circumvented by other plotlines.

Let's say that the RW never occurred, and that Robb made it back to the North. Maybe go so far as to say that Robb arrives with his ragtag force just as the Battle on the Ice occurs, lending a hand in it's outcome. Is that a better or worse storyline for you? That's the real point: It's subjective. Personally speaking, I prefer what I just laid out above than the RW.

I won't have all day to defend the comments regarding "Oh, well, what about The Neck?". Well, my response is: What about Howland Reed and the Crannogmen?

Since we're all in the same boat: SPECULATION, let's do exactly that. Speculate.

[locke and key]

I could go on and on, but my time is limited. Feel free to try your hand at it as well, that would give me the impression you're not being argumentative for the sake of being argumentative.

Tweaks? Easy. Robb is still alive and fighting. Realizes it's a trap, sets his own countertrap or makes an escape and limps back north with a rather ragtag force or holes up in Riverrun. I think it's rather lazy to think the effects the RW had on other factions could not have been circumvented by other plotlines.

Let's say that the RW never occurred, and that Robb made it back to the North. Maybe go so far as to say that Robb arrives with his ragtag force just as the Battle on the Ice occurs, lending a hand in it's outcome. Is that a better or worse storyline for you? That's the real point: It's subjective. Personally speaking, I prefer what I just laid out above than the RW.

I won't have all day to defend the comments regarding "Oh, well, what about The Neck?". Well, my response is: What about Howland Reed and the Crannogmen?

Since we're all in the same boat: SPECULATION, let's do exactly that. Speculate.

I agree that it's subjective, however, most fans on these forums and this thread agree that although harsh the red wedding was the best way for these plot points to happen and for grrm to continue the story this way,

the main problem for your storyline is that lots of the events of adwd in particular revolve around stannis and the north rising up against the boltons with you're scenario the boltons never get in power, so none of the northern lords ally with stannis meaning that he can't capture asha and more importantly the battle of ice never happens as Robb returns home and the people of the north continue to support him rather than stannis or roose, theon never gets to escpae from winterfell just gets executed by robb when he arrives back in the north, instead of going to braavos arya just keeps trying to get back north to find robb, LF delivers sansa to robb in winterfell, rather than taking her to the eyrie in order to gain the affection of cat, bran finds out robb is back and feels safe to return home, Cat never gets killed and resurrected as UnCat so Brienne and jaime's cliffhangers at the end of adwd which will lead into thier WOW storyline never happen, Davos never gets sent to manderly to recruit troops and then not sent on to skagos, jon never threatens to leave nights watch leading to his death as ramasy never gets to send his letter because he isn't in that position of power,

and on top of all this robb just can't go home as he also has to defend the riverlands and it's people who've declared for him (otherwise he'd have done this way earlier)

[Evil Jay]

"and for grrm to continue the story this way,"

That's the key. To continue the story THIS way. I'm saying he could have continued it many different ways, and I would like it just as much. If not better.

[locke and key]

"and for grrm to continue the story this way,"

That's the key. To continue the story THIS way. I'm saying he could have continued it many different ways, and I would like it just as much. If not better.

But, it's not about you, it's about everyone who reads the books , thats who he's writing for, Ultimately it's grrm's story and as far as I'm concerned he can do it however the hell he wants

[Cas Stark]

After Ned, Robb, and Cat died, Starks just weren't the same for me. Bran is off being a tree. Arya is just completely detached to the point where coming back and being a major player in Stark restoration would be silly. I dont even care if she assassinates all the people on her death list. Sansa is a perpetual catspaw for whom I barely care for since her PoV exists only to present much more interesting and capable characters. Rickon is a fucking infant.

After the RW I basically just rooted for Jon, whom I always liked, and now he's either dead, going to become a zombie, or changed in some way forever so that the old Jon Snow is basically gone. I'm still rooting for him but I know it won't be the same.

House Stark is gone, and even if they come back in some way ill just think meh, who cares. After the RW just destroy that cess pool of a continent and let it crumble. In for a penny, in for a pound.

And as a side note, Robb's marriage to Jeyne would have been an obstacle, not certain death, if their plan to cut off Tywin wasn't ruined by Edmure. The Lannisters and Tyrells joining forces was the end of hopes. They sought the help of Walder Frey as it was their only hope, and a slim one at that, of defeating the Lannisters and Tyrells. Whether Robb married or not would not really matter after the Tyrell and Lannister hosts joined.

I'm with you, it was much too drastic. But, then I believe that GRRM's idea of subverting the genre has turned into a simplistic "kill everyone/good guys never win" template which is not only very unsatisfying as a reader [i don't really want to have read 7 or 8 books to find that the moral of the story is that life sucks, there is no point in doing the right thing, might as well rape and pillage to your hearts content], but also, almost as predictable as "hero always wins".

Unless he writes books that go for at least 10 more years in his timeline there is no way for any kind of legitimate Stark restoration, because only Rickon Stark can accomplish that, so unless we follow the story until he's a teenager, then, there is going to be nothing but ashes and dust for the Starks.

I don't really understand why people loved the RW, because they thought it was "badass" to kill Robb Stark? Not only was it fairly contrived for a number of reasons, but just to pick one, why would Walder Frey--the cautioius guy who sits at the Twins and does nothing til he is sure of the outcome--do something as crazy as break guest right on such a massive scale, ensuring his House will become a virtual pariah. A little poison would have been equally effective and no stain on the entire Frey claim for the forseeable future. It was too over the top.

I will read the series through to the end, but I am almost positive I will be disappointed because, as I've said before, if not one single negative thing happens to any of the Starks for the rest of the series, they are still virtually destroyed as a power and a House.

[Woftis]

IMO it doesn't matter how important the RW is as a plot point.

It was one of the most entertaining moments of the series, and ultimately, that's why we books...simple.