Heresy Area 51

[Black Crow]

Interesting thought. This leads me to question whether or not the Children, who Leaf sort of describes as being supplanted by men, so perhaps the debt of service to the "Old Gods" was passed onto humans as well. Let me elaborate: if it stands to reason that the Gods of the Children were passed down to the First Men, who kept them as the nameless "Old Gods"... wouldn't it make sense that many of these rituals- the business at the Nightfort, Craster's "offerings", etc. be something the Children of the Forest once practiced too? Or maybe even... still do (insides turn to ice at the thought...)

Which makes the Others seem so much different than how they're being portrayed imo. We see many characters in the books, and many on the main-boards, looking at the Others like a classical fantasy evil- Sauron-types out to conquer Westeros and eat all the living people. But perhaps the Old Gods are many a human/CotF appellation to mask some mystical, inherent faerie-like force in the world that simply needs to be placated, or dealt with if one wants magic in the world.

Ah but so much of that speculation rests on the Wall. What is it, and what is its purpose? To keep the Others- and magic, out? To protect mankind from the Others? Or perhaps, to protect mankind's fealty/tribute to the Others/Old Gods? :) It's all very intriguing.

Ah, no, not necessarily. What we've worked out fairly recently is that there are Old Gods and Old Gods. Generally speaking when reference is made to the Old Gods its assumed, and usually correctly, that what's meant are the secret gods of the woods as acknowledged if not actively worshipped by the Children and in time according to Maester Luwin taken up by the First Men.

However, there are also a quite different set of old gods; those worshipped by the First Men before some took up with the weirwoods, including but not confined to the Storm Gods. Given that worship of the secret gods of the woods is so widespread in the North and apparently (?) beyond the Wall, its significant that Qhorin refers to the old powers wakening and justifies taking Jon with him by reference to the Gods of the Starks, which suggests what while Ned is happy to clean the blood off Ice below the weirwood, the Starks are also associated with these older gods.

This is also why I have reservations about associating the white walkers with the wood dancers, because Craster's boys belong to Ice rather than to the Earth

[Little Wing]

About Ramsay - his relationship to his (original) Reek and his mother always reminds me of scenes from Merlin (the Hallmark version) where we see Queen Mab visiting young Mordred with her servant (Fritz or something similar = Reek). Can't find a proper scene from the film, so it's a medley of scenes with Mordred and Queen Mab.

The washer woman thread tells much more on this. :)

[brut]

Don't quite remember, but if memory serves this was discussed in one of the earlier heresies and someone mentioned that the original Reek might have been a undead.

[Black Crow]

Nope, don't remembrer that one and he certainly wound up dead, as in no more.

[nedhed]

Great stuff in here guys.

Re: the episode 3 spiral symbol presumably attributed to the others and it's possible validation of some of the heretical interpretations of the text, I thought it very noteworthy that the spiral was made of horse heads. Maybe I've been reading too much Bran Vras, but I basically subscribe to the theory that the COTF don't like horses all that much, and that they can influence the WW, so I can read into the spiral not only a suggestion that the WW are more than the Big Bad, but also that they're connected to the COTF.

I realize that's a "just so" theory and not based on anything canonical, but I found it interesting nonetheless. Can't wait for tomorrow!

[nedhed]

Speaking of tenuous TV connections, on Vikings last week Ragnar's wife, to settle a dispute between a man and his wife over whether the boy was another man's son, and this a bastard, proclaimed that a such a child would be a child of the gods and therefore the man should treat the child like a true born son either way, so the dispute was moot. If that's consistent with Norse mythology, it could lend support to the theory that bastards in GRRM's world might be more likely to have closer connections to the gods.

[Black Crow]

Great stuff in here guys.

Re: the episode 3 spiral symbol presumably attributed to the others and it's possible validation of some of the heretical interpretations of the text, I thought it very noteworthy that the spiral was made of horse heads. Maybe I've been reading too much Bran Vras, but I basically subscribe to the theory that the COTF don't like horses all that much, and that they can influence the WW, so I can read into the spiral not only a suggestion that the WW are more than the Big Bad, but also that they're connected to the COTF.

I realize that's a "just so" theory and not based on anything canonical, but I found it interesting nonetheless. Can't wait for tomorrow!

Afraid not, the point there as Mance noted, was that the dead men are now wights. When they laid out the symbol in the prologue they did use human body parts but that was because they didn't need wights. Given that neither scene is canon I doubt that we can read any further significance into it at this stage beryond the "reveal" that there's much more to Craster's boys than at first appears.

Anyway, welcome to the forum and to heresy. Sit back and enjoy the ride.

[wolfmaid7]

Events I fear...

Anyway, liking to keep things simple as I do, I don't think there's any doubt that Roose has ice inside him, he is very much a cold man in character and calculation, however there's a wildness about Ramsay quite alien to Roose (and to Craster) that's also wholly destructive. Roose is trying to take over the north and contemptuously despairing of the way Ramsay is setting about alienating it. In this sense as much as anything else Ramsay is a classic changeling; outwardly appearing to be a child of the family (sharing Roose's eyes) but turning out to very different and destructively different.

The question though is why has he been planted and by who?

Back to my Esau/Jacob analogy,Jacob was a plant my his mother in order that Jacob may steal Esau's birthright. A very long time ago when i was dabbling in the more extremes of doctrines in the christian faith. All the secret books etc, there was a theory concerning the Angels that fell ( book of Enoch) in a nut shell God left the children of men a birthright that only they could access ( all those who came through the matrix of the womb).The angels that fell had intercourse with the daughters of men so they could introduce their seed into the line of man thus being by virture of the woman have a chance at getting the birthright.

The birthright being the chance to be "like God"

What if its a scenario something like this, if Ramsey is a plant the only reason you would want that is in the hopes that he may usurp someone; but you at lease must have a claim in order to attempt. Could the unseen factions be using this rule as well and if so then it has to be via the mother.

Edit: clarity

[brut]

Nope, don't remembrer that one and he certainly wound up dead, as in no more.

Might have slipped unnoticed (or probably mentioned on another thread), but the link was that Original Reek was necrophiliac and stank badly irrespective of hygiene. Even his blood stank, according to Roose. And someone suggested that the stinking smell was due to the decomposing flesh. Now, the text reference is that his smell accompanied him from birth. Could this imply a changeling?

[Black Crow]

What if its a scenario something like this, if Ramsey is a plant the only reason you would want that is in the hopes that he may usurp someone; but you at lease must have a claim in order to attempt. Could the unseen factions be using this rule as well and if so then it has to be via the mother.

I don't know how far into this level of theology GRRM might be although we've certainly noted how the importance of the female bloodline appears to be.

The trouble is in figuring out what Ramsay's purpose might be because flensing knives apart he's hardly the sharpest of tools and more likely to frustrate rather than forward anything that might be going on in the background,

[Black Crow]

Now, the text reference is that his smell accompanied him from birth. Could this imply a changeling?

Ah, now this bit I do remember because a funny smell is indeed one of the classic ways of detecting a changeling, because it just isn't quite "right"

[Profion]

If Reek is indeed a Changeling (if this exists in Martin´s World), we can assume that you can kill a changeling the way you kill a normal person, given the fact that Reek was killed by Ser Rodrik´s men.

[Black Crow]

I don't think there's any tradition of changelings being invulnerable, if anything perhaps the opposite since they are often sickly.

[#Fire and Blood]

I am loving this thread! I think I have something worthy of discussion.

We know that Jon was afraid that Mel was going to try and sacrifice MR's son so Jon switched him out with Gilly's boy and sent him with Sam. It has been discussed that perhaps Craster's sons are perhaps somehow being made into the Others. Whether or not that is true, they still have some sort of significance that is yet to be seen as they are taken by the Others.

I am starting to wonder if Crasters sons have something special about them since there is speculation that they turn into the others. If that is the case, the what of Gilly's boy. I am wondering if something significant would happen if Mel does sacrifice this boy to the fires.

I am thinking, Mel sacrifices the child to the fires to try and bring Jon back to life (if in fact he is dead). Since all of Craster's son's may be the Others, would this sacrifice be crucial in turning Jon into the nights king? Jon may end up being influenced by any ice magic that the boy has and that pushes him over the edge into the world of the WW's.

Thoughts?

Edit: sentence structure

[Har!]

I agree that Ramsay is Roose's son. I do, however, find the matter of his eyes very, very interesting. It's the fact that the infant Ramsay has Roose's eyes that causes Roose to acknowledge Ramsay as his bastard rather than have him thrown down a well; Theon notes that in physical appearance, the eyes are the only thing Roose and Ramsay have in common. And I'm struck by the "icey" quality of these Bolton eyes, which immediately calls to mind an earlier Brandon Stark, "Ice Eyes." If I'm not mistaken, he's the one that recaptured the Wolf's Den from slavers, and gave the slavers to the freed slaves who hung their entrails on the trees? I find the overlap in description and epithet striking. I don't think we've got any real information on Brandon "Ice Eyes" Stark, where he fits into the lineage of the Starks, what he was doing over in Wolf's Den (a place that seems to be given over to younger sons, but also to lesser houses of the North). But the Dreadfort/Winterfell relationship seems increasingly important, and for all that the Starks are associated with power and magic, the Dreadfort connection to flaying and wearing skins, and to First Night customs (using which Roose raped Ramsay's mother), seems to be playing with magic of a different variety. Recall, too, Roose's uncannily unmarked, unlined appearance (to which he attributes his regular leeching). I really don't know whether to see Roose as simply an extremely canny player of the Game of Thrones (I think he's in the same league as LF and Varys, but he's got different pieces), or as someone who's part of the bigger game, the cosmic one involving supernatural powers.

I want to say that Ramsay has none of his father's power, in my opinion. He is just a sadist, and I think that Roose is playing him, too. For Ramsay, flaying is simply an instrument of torture, and he's learned how to terrorize people and thus control them. It also seems that Ramsay has no inherent respect or fear for the Old Gods, and I don't think he's inclined to think about the reality of magic. But Roose is a mystery. Like I said above: definitely a master player, but is he more?

Great, great post, very stimulating! I find Ramsey and his status to be very puzzling. To echo a comment from Black Crow below, he does not come across as very bright, and yet he has enjoyed almost nothing but success (apart from losing his bride and Reek).

You would think a player like Roose would want nothing to do with him, and yet he seems - to me at least - strangely compelled to not only keep him on but promote him.

- Roose could have thrown him down a well, but didn't.

- He could have refused to support him, but gave his mother the mill and Ramsey gifts, including Reek eventually.

- Then he acknowledges him,

- presumably sets him on Lady Hornwood and

- greenlights operation Winterfell.

- now he marries him to 'Arya'

Now Roose does this even though he apparently knows it is in his best interests to cut his ties to Ramsey, witness his spreading the rumors of Ramsey having killed Domeric. I agree that it looks as if Roose is setting up Ramsey to take the fall for a lot of what Roose feels needs to be done, but can't shake the notion that somehow it is more complicated that that.

Let me comment too on the strangeness of Roose's agelessness. Couple that with the early death of nearly all his children and it makes me wonder just what book Qyburn thought Roose would find interesting in Harrenhal (the book he subsequently burns after reading). Was not one of the Lothstan's of Harrenhal reviled for having bathed in human blood in order to remain young?

I don't know, Bran Vras made some compelling points linking the physical description of Ramsay to the description of Craster, and it is explicitly stated in the books that only way in which Ramsay resembles Roose is his "ice eyes".

I'm not ready to rule that out just yet, especially considering all the similarities Ramsay has to the White Lot and that we still don't really know for sure what happens to all of the boys Craster gives them.

I find it striking too that they seem to share nothing but the eyes. Roose seems to have been bewitched by the miller's wife and every time when he should have distanced himself from Ramsey he has been unable to bring himself to do it. It seems as if Roose knows what he should do regarding Ramsey (kill, disown) but is never able to actually do it.

I don't know how far into this level of theology GRRM might be although we've certainly noted how the importance of the female bloodline appears to be.

The trouble is in figuring out what Ramsay's purpose might be because flensing knives apart he's hardly the sharpest of tools and more likely to frustrate rather than forward anything that might be going on in the background,

I can't disagree with you, in fact I share your opinion on Ramsey being an idiot... but how does he keep winning? You would think such blatant idiocy would have repercussions, but he rolls right along, dragging Roose with him. Is there something else at work that is helping him along? If nothing else, by enabling him to get away with stuff w Roose that no one else could?

- indiscreet hunts

- alienating hornwood/manderly/dustin/ryswell/cerwyn (did i leave anyone out?)

- treatment of Arya

- alienation of Freys over inheritance of Dreadfort and butchery of little Walder (yes, I think he did it)

- and what happens when (as Roose puts it) one of the Stark boys shows up...

Roose seems supremely cautious, but I think it will be hard for him to simply shed Ramsey when convenient.

Might have slipped unnoticed (or probably mentioned on another thread), but the link was that Original Reek was necrophiliac and stank badly irrespective of hygiene. Even his blood stank, according to Roose. And someone suggested that the stinking smell was due to the decomposing flesh. Now, the text reference is that his smell accompanied him from birth. Could this imply a changeling?

And why does Roose get leeched... to get rid of the bad blood. Could Reek have been another bastard? One whose blood was left to 'fester'?

And how often did Reek and Ramsey switch off, one pretending to be the other?

We have lots of unreliable narrators with regards to these matters. Reek/Ramsey switched identities once that we know of... but I've always thought it strange that a mere change of clothing would have fooled those that shot Reek-as-Ramsey, would not the smell have given the game away?

[Black Crow]

I am loving this thread! I think I have something worthy of discussion.

We know that Jon was afraid that Mel was going to try and sacrifice MR's son so Jon switched him out with Gilly's boy and sent him with Sam. It has been discussed that perhaps Craster's sons are perhaps somehow being made into the Others. Whether or not that is true, they still have some sort of significance that is yet to be seen as they are taken by the Others.

I am starting to wonder if Crasters sons have something special about them since there is speculation that they turn into the others. If that is the case, the what of Gilly's boy. I am wondering if something significant would happen if Mel does sacrifice this boy to the fires.

I am thinking, Mel sacrifices the child to the fires to try and bring Jon back to life (if in fact he is dead). Since all of Craster's son's may be the Others, would this sacrifice be crucial in turning Jon into the nights king? Jon may end up being influenced by any ice magic that the boy has and that pushes him over the edge into the world of the WW's.

Thoughts?

I think its fair to say that there's pretty general agreement on this thread that the significance of the switch is that Monster is still on the Wall and that his brothers want him and may yet come for him. However while Mel working her magic on Jon is also a pretty popular assumption on the wider thread, its Val who recognises Monster's importance and Val is on the other side.

There's also that cryptic reference by GRRM to Jon being pursued through the forest (by Ramsay?) and wondering where his next meal is coming from, which doesn't sound either dead or raised from the dead.

[Black Wolf Smith]

There is a simpler reason for the way Ramsey is.

Ramsey's mother was raped. She saw Ramsey everday and he was a reminder of that rape. There is a good likely hood that she hated and mistreated/abused him as a child. Its not even far fetched. The combo of Bolton blood, and abuse equals Ramsey.

[Black Wolf Smith]

There's also that cryptic reference by GRRM to Jon being pursued through the forest (by Ramsay?) and wondering where his next meal is coming from, which doesn't sound either dead or raised from the dead.

Where is that? got a link?

[Tyryan Lannister]

I am loving this thread! I think I have something worthy of discussion.

We know that Jon was afraid that Mel was going to try and sacrifice MR's son so Jon switched him out with Gilly's boy and sent him with Sam. It has been discussed that perhaps Craster's sons are perhaps somehow being made into the Others. Whether or not that is true, they still have some sort of significance that is yet to be seen as they are taken by the Others.

I am starting to wonder if Crasters sons have something special about them since there is speculation that they turn into the others. If that is the case, the what of Gilly's boy. I am wondering if something significant would happen if Mel does sacrifice this boy to the fires.

I am thinking, Mel sacrifices the child to the fires to try and bring Jon back to life (if in fact he is dead). Since all of Craster's son's may be the Others, would this sacrifice be crucial in turning Jon into the nights king? Jon may end up being influenced by any ice magic that the boy has and that pushes him over the edge into the world of the WW's.

Thoughts?

Edit: sentence structure

As far as I'm concerned, no; for the next Night's King is going to be Stannis (this is one of the few areas where Black Crow and I disagree).

[Tyryan Lannister]

Where is that? got a link?

No link here, but there is an interview with Martin where he's talking about his writing style mixed with his current place in the writing where he mentions (paraphrase) "Jon running through the forest being chased by _____"