Howland Reed + Ashara Dayne = Meera & Jojen?

[The Answer]

I haven't been this turned on since the "Varys Poisoned Tywin" thread.

Well then I must reference you to an apparent 'must read' one of our fellow posters has shared with me.

Mate why don't you go and read A Very Hungry Caterpillar it will probably blow your mind

[A Crow Come Over]

Should we add this one to the Compendyum of Theories?

Yes we should.

[Honey Bee]

ETA - You even have people saying stuff along the lines of 'wow you have some heavy hitters like Butterbumps and Mladen coming out in defence of your theory welll done' - even though Mladen was like the most critical person

Personally I said it BECAUSE those mentioned above had certain gripes. First and foremost I think this is a great theory and I find it sad that you think we're easily persuaded because of the amount of posts you have under your picture.

[WinterKing]

Yes we should.

Done.

[Eddard Tarly2]

Good theory. Let's hope it turns out to be true :cool4:

[Frey family reunion]

Interesting theory. I tried to read most of the OP post and the comments but I admit that I didn’t get through all so I apologise for not fully grasping it.

I can believe that Ashara and Howland fell in love and that he is the father of her child but I don’t understand why would she need to fake her death, abandon her family and go into hiding for the rest of her life.

I saw couple people speculating that she did it to protect Jon because once she “killed herself” people would start assuming that she was the mother of Ned Stark’s bastard but that makes absolutely no sense to me. Firstly nobody suspect that Ned’s bastard is actually Lyanna’s, secondly most people don’t really care who Jon’s mother is and thirdly if Ashara threw away her life for that particular lie, wouldn’t it make sense for Ned to officially acknowledge her as Jon’s mother to stop anybody digging deeper into it.

I also don’t understand how Howland being Arthur’s brother in law (or soon to be brother in law) could have saved Ned’s life.

Thanks a lot for clearing it up for me. Kudos to OP for coming up with something interesting and original.

I think I agree with your post. I like the fact that it's original and not completely implausible. My problem is Arthur Dayne also faking his death and living in the swamp so he can keep an eye on Jon and pop on over to Winterfell in case Jon needs him, oh and he may be the hooded man. I'm not on board with that part of it.

And if you take away the Arthur Dayne angle you start to have a problem with why Ashara would fake her death and change her identity to marry Howland. I just don't see how this helps protect Jon, and I don't think the motivation of, well everyone will assume Jon's my child so I'll just pretend to kill myself so I won't have to answer any question really flies.

Now having said that, it did occur to me that if Howland did help Eddard kill Arthur, and if Howland and Ashara had fallen in love and if she was carrying his child (not sure of the time line) then I guess you could argue that her family would have forbid the arrangement because of Howland's role in Arthur's death, and rather than bring disgrace on the family name, she would rather pretend to kill herself so she could run away with Howland and their unborn child. I guess that's plausible.

[FuriousGeorge]

Personally I said it BECAUSE those mentioned above had certain gripes. First and foremost I think this is a great theory and I find it sad that you think we're easily persuaded because of the amount of posts you have under your picture.

What are you on about? What does the number of posts under my picture or your picture (didn't you ever learn how to structure a sentence in school?) have to do with anything?

[WinterKing]

What are you on about? What does the number of posts under my picture or your picture (didn't you ever learn how to structure a sentence in school?) have to do with anything?

From the Board Style Guide

"No-one, especially non-native English speakers, should be mocked for bad spelling"

Not everyone is a native English speaker and some may have difficulty expressing themselves in a foreign language.

[bbstark]

ok, finally read the beast... I must admit, it's a very well thought out theory...

Some nitpicking to the OP:

I don't see the Quentyn as mud and frog as a link as thematic evidence for this theory, and here's why: because one comes from Barristan and the other does not. We know that Barristan loved Ashara, and if you idea is true, then he might associate the man (and possibly his culture) that "stole her away" from him with negative things/thoughts, which would implicate the crannogmen sort of in the back of his mind when thinking of her. Quentin is Dornish however, and thus has more in common with Ashara than some crannogmen. The association of any Dornishman with any Cranoggman (or anything Cranoggy, ie. derived from the culture and life style) just seems unlikely (if not completely dissociated), and his discrimination against the Dornish seems to be independent from that of the Cranoggmen. Additionally, he isn't the one that calls Quentyn frog, it's one of his own, who presumably would know nothing of Ashara (none of which are even Daynes)

So far, the associateion Selmy makes with Quentyn having to do much anything with the Crannogmen, I think is your weakest point.

I also don't see why both Arthur and Ashara are alive necessarily in your theory, though I don't deny it looks like at least one of them could easily be.

The most compelling evidence to me is Meera's age, and that Howland was on the Isle of Faces for the whole winter. Assuming that no Crannogwoman was at Herrenhal, with whom he could have conceived a child, this particular piece of information raises questions as to how Meera came about...as it were. How/when did the wedding take place?

It's possible that we don't have enough evidence to either confirm or deny many pieces of this theory, but there aren't enough gaping holes for me to flat out deny it! Excellent work.

[Honey Bee]

What are you on about? What does the number of posts under my picture or your picture (didn't you ever learn how to structure a sentence in school?) have to do with anything?

I'm on an iPad, sorry I can't express myself properly.

Just because someone has a lot of posts doesn't mean I find them any more credible.

[Breastplate Stretcha]

I haven't been this turned on since the "Varys Poisoned Tywin" thread.

:lol:

Me either. Great thread, Maiden!

[Hangover of the Morning]

I think I agree with your post. I like the fact that it's original and not completely implausible. My problem is Arthur Dayne also faking his death and living in the swamp so he can keep an eye on Jon and pop on over to Winterfell in case Jon needs him, oh and he may be the hooded man. I'm not on board with that part of it.

And if you take away the Arthur Dayne angle you start to have a problem with why Ashara would fake her death and change her identity to marry Howland. I just don't see how this helps protect Jon, and I don't think the motivation of, well everyone will assume Jon's my child so I'll just pretend to kill myself so I won't have to answer any question really flies.

Now having said that, it did occur to me that if Howland did help Eddard kill Arthur, and if Howland and Ashara had fallen in love and if she was carrying his child (not sure of the time line) then I guess you could argue that her family would have forbid the arrangement because of Howland's role in Arthur's death, and rather than bring disgrace on the family name, she would rather pretend to kill herself so she could run away with Howland and their unborn child. I guess that's plausible.

Great analysis and thanks for clearing things up for me. Indeed, Ashara not being allowed to marry Howland provides a plausible explanation (and one that I did not think about) for her fake suicide.

[MasterJack]

Jyana Reed minus Dayne =

JaRe

reaj

jear

earj

arje

There must be a meaning!!!

It is sad her name isnt Lyana Reed, We could mix the letters and form Real Dayne

But when you think about it: Lyanna + Jon ----> Jyana! :P

[Stubby]

[MOD]

Please remember that if all you can argue against is grammar, then you don't really have a point.

Please contain criticism to the content of a post rather than to the poster or their grammar.

Yes, grammar is important, but it is not everything.

[/MOD]

[maidenandwarrior]

Wow, I'm kinda actually amazed at this. I couldn't really get on yesterday because it was so busy, I go to work today and come home to four more pages added to the thread. So nice! Thank you to everyone, comments positive and negative.

With regards to the whole "Jyana Reed" thing, yeah, I did think a lot about this, and I do have a guess. I didn't mention it in the OP because there is no textual evidence for it, but here goes. One of the things that is such a gaping hole to me is that the Reeds mention their dad, even his friends, but never their mother. Now, if my theory holds up, it would be because she is in hiding. So yes, Jyana is an assumed name. So why did she choose that one? I always assumed she took something similar to Lyanna. Something that sounded Northern, and honored the woman who saved her husband from those squires. Remember, they could have done Howland some real damage had LS not arrived when she did.

I don't see the Quentyn as mud and frog as a link as thematic evidence for this theory, and here's why: because one comes from Barristan and the other does not. We know that Barristan loved Ashara, and if you idea is true, then he might associate the man (and possibly his culture) that "stole her away" from him with negative things/thoughts, which would implicate the crannogmen sort of in the back of his mind when thinking of her. Quentin is Dornish however, and thus has more in common with Ashara than some crannogmen. The association of any Dornishman with any Cranoggman (or anything Cranoggy, ie. derived from the culture and life style) just seems unlikely (if not completely dissociated), and his discrimination against the Dornish seems to be independent from that of the Cranoggmen. Additionally, he isn't the one that calls Quentyn frog, it's one of his own, who presumably would know nothing of Ashara (none of which are even Daynes)

So far, the associateion Selmy makes with Quentyn having to do much anything with the Crannogmen, I think is your weakest point.

Oh, no! I wasn't stating that Barristan knows anything about who Ashara married, far from it. His opinions and thoughts about her are only used, like Cats, to tell us what gossip was circulating at the time.

No, that whole passage about mud, the Dornish connection, and Quentyn being called Frog were all foreshadowing and dramatic irony. Martin does this over and over with Jon, constantly using the word "king" in conversations and thoughts connected to him. It is never said explicitly, but it is there for careful readers to think there might be a reason that this keeps coming up over and over.

Barristan, who loved Ashara, thinks deprecatingly that all young girls want fire over mud. It is one of the reasons he thinks that she wouldn't have wanted him, had he not been sowrn to celibacy. How heartwrenching then would it be if it was discovered that Ashara chose mud, not fire after all.

[brut]

Great stuff, and it does make you think...

What if we spin this a bit further down the road and align the Dayne - Reed alliance along the lines of Rickard Stark's Southern ambitions? Seems only fitting if this were a part of bigger plan to marry into Southern lands: Brandon to Riverrun, Lyanna to Storm's End, Ned to Eyrie, Benjen to the Reach (is there any textual evidence for that?) and his bannerman Reed to Star Fall.

[Sigurður Ingi]

I think this theory is very good and should well praised for good researching and analyzing.

One thing that find this theory is interesting because how it also makes sense on many thing like for example on Brotherhood without Banners could go anywhere in the Neck with help of smallfolks, which is interesting since many people in Westeros considers crannogmen smallfolks but also that squire of Beric Dondarrion former head of Brotherhood was Edric Dayne nephew of Ashara Dayne and also what makes it even more interesting is his nickname "Ned" considered that Ashara brother Arthur was "killed" by Ned Stark..

What makes also this theory good is because it gives plausible where Edric Dayne s who just suddenly disappear after changes in Brotherhood so it maybe possibility that he is staying in Greywater Hatch.

In the end all I can say about this theory is that is very well made and should be judge for its contain but not whether it will come true or not

i

[MissingNo]

It is sad her name isnt Lyana Reed, We could mix the letters and form Real Dayne

But when you think about it: Lyanna + Jon ----> Jyana! :P

Is George a big Indiana Jones fan?

Remember in the end of raiders of the Lost Ark when he has to take the path of god test and the letters l and j are interchangeable when spelling jehova. :o

[Hangover of the Morning]

One thing that find this theory is interesting because how it also makes sense on many thing like for example on Brotherhood without Banners could go anywhere in the Neck with help of smallfolks, which is interesting since many people in Westeros considers crannogmen smallfolks but also that squire of Beric Dondarrion former head of Brotherhood was Edric Dayne nephew of Ashara Dayne and also what makes it even more interesting is his nickname "Ned" considered that Ashara brother Arthur was "killed" by Ned Stark.

I apologize but this reasoning does not make any sense to me.

[MissingNo]

I apologize but this reasoning does not make any sense to me.

I think he is trying to say if Beric could vanish so easily with the help of the smallfolk so could Arthur Dayne. And why would the dayne family name one of their own Eddard if the original "killed" Ser Arthur?