Would Rhaegar have been a better father to Jon than Ned?

[TalalOfDorne]

its always a better idea to take it out on the innocent child

So the innocent wife should suffer for her husbands infidelity. Honestly in this situation the guilty party is the husband, and what makes it worse is that divorce is out of the question.

And IF you're implying that Cat did that then Im afraid you've been having a very wrong idea about the Ned-Cat-Jon situation.

[jons nissa]

This isn't a question that could truly ever be answered.

i agree. too many unknown variables.

I am one of those people who thinks that Jon probably had a happier childhood than most of the other kids.

except that jon hates being a bastard. all of ned's affection couldn't change the fact that he felt like less than his half siblings. growing up with that hanging over him affected him immensely. he didn't want to have sex for fear of fathering another bastard, for the love of the seven, and he was a teenager. that is unbelievable motivation for ignoring the natural desire for intimacy.

[Mulled Wino]

Are you implying that Cat took it out on Jon?

I was responding to a post that said "no woman should have to take on a child concieved while the father was out whoring". Seems to me thats taking it out on an innocent child.

As far as Cat and Jon, she clearly said some unsavory things and didnt treat him as well as she could have but I mostly blame Ned for that. Him never talking about where Jon came from would he too much for pretty much anyone.

[Mulled Wino]

So the innocent wife should suffer for her husbands infidelity. Honestly in this situation the guilty party is the husband, and what makes it worse is that divorce is out of the question.

And IF you're implying that Cat did that then Im afraid you've been having a very wrong idea about the Ned-Cat-Jon situation.

Ok, so its better for the even more innocent child to suffer. Gotcha. See my last post in response to the Cat/Jon/Ned thing before you jump to conclusions.

[TalalOfDorne]

Ok, so its better for the even more innocent child to suffer. Gotcha. See my last post in response to the Cat/Jon/Ned thing before you jump to conclusions.

Wow. Did I say its better for the child? And you say Im jumping into conclusions.

[Kuther2000]

except that jon hates being a bastard. all of ned's affection couldn't change the fact that he felt like less than his half siblings. growing up with that hanging over him affected him immensely. he didn't want to have sex for fear of fathering another bastard, for the love of the seven, and he was a teenager. that is unbelievable motivation for ignoring the natural desire for intimacy.

Alot of people hate being something. Brienne feels less than. Cersei feels less than. Most girls probably feel less than their brothers. They get over it well some of them. If he was raised by Rhaegar, then he could have had something else hanging over his shoulder such as being the son of a(possible)second wife and looking nothing like his father and brother or other '' true'' Targaryens. Also knowing that his grandfather brutally murdered his other grandfather and his uncle(s). His mother possibly died having him.

Nowadays, alot of people still have that fear of having a child out of wedlock even without being a bastard.

[jons nissa]

Alot of people hate being something. Brienne feels less than. Cersei feels less than. Most girls probably feel less than their brothers. They get over it. If he was raised by Rhaegar, then he could have had something else hanging over his shoulder such as being the son of a(possible)second wife and looking nothing like his father and brother or other '' true'' Targaryens. Also knowing that his grandfather brutally murdered his other grandfather and his uncle(s). His mother possibly died having him.

you're right. jon should thank the gods catelyn was around to remind him and his siblings he was less than them. just like everyone else you named was ok with feeling as though they are inferior. what was i thinking?

[Kuther2000]

you're right. jon should thank the gods catelyn was around to remind him and his siblings he was less than them. just like everyone else you named was ok with feeling as though they are inferior. what was i thinking?

WTH. I didn't say anything like that. Feeling less than is an emotion. No one else can help you on that. It is something that you have to strive to overcome and not let other people make you feel that way.

I also gave you an example of other problems that he could have that would probably be harsher on him growing up as a Targaryen than being a bastard.

[Minsc]

you're right. jon should thank the gods catelyn was around to remind him and his siblings he was less than them. just like everyone else you named was ok with feeling as though they are inferior. what was i thinking?

Don't you mean society rather then Catelyn? Seeing how its society's stances that make bastards lesser not solely Cat's feelings.

[Earth 1 Andrew]

I think that given the very unfortunate circumstances Ned did very well as Jon's father. I guess Jon would have had an easier life if Rhaegar won on the Trident because he would grow up as a prince (or not) so I guess it goes both ways. Personally I'd like to think that Ned did a better job than Rhaegar just because of my love for Eddard. However, we can not be sure how events would have played out had Rhaegar won on the Trident.

[The Angels' Prophet]

I am one of those people who thinks that Jon probably had a happier childhood than most of the other kids. It wasn't like Cat was being abusive. Elia could have been aware of Rhaegar's intentions but that doesn't mean she has to be understanding. Rhaegar is the crown prince and her husband. He could do as he liked without her being okay with it. Truthfully, I would be shocked if we actually ever got confirmation on what she knew because she is long dead and the only people who could tell us anything are dead or Doran if he knows anything.

What exactly is decent? Is she obligated to love Jon to be decent? No. Is she obligated to be his mother? No. Does she have to let him play with her children for her to be decent?

I think she is decent if she isn't abusive to the son of her husband whose mother, everyone and their mother knew he loved. He went out of his way to essentially say that Elia wasn't good enough by running off with Lyanna. I know that he didn't love her and it was a political marriage. But it still has to sting. He basically(presumably) brought an outdated practice back just for this.

I actually like Elia for what little we know of her so no I don't think she would have been mean, but then again Cat wasn't mean to me either she was indifferent.

I am not saying Cat was inclined to be decent to Jon, but at the same time, I do think she was disrespectful towards him. It is not really her actions that bother me, it is her reasons. Just because Jon was a bastard, she viewed him as inferior. When Robb said he wanted to make Jon his heir, Cat acted irrationally. Honestly, if Jon had not joined the Nights Watch,he would have been a great heir to Winterfell, even as a bastard. He was, after all, the last son of Eddard Stark.

Basically, I am saying that Cat holds Jon's Bastard birth against him, while I do not think Elia would've. That is just my opinon, based on how much we know about her character.

And as to Elia's understanding of Rhaegar's intentions, I think she knew he was trying to recreate a prophecy and what-not. Three heads of the dragon and all that. That is what I meant by her being understanding about it. I also am pretty sure Elia had a lover or two on the side herself. She was Oberyn's sister, after all ;)

[Minsc]

I am not saying Cat was inclined to be decent to Jon, but at the same time, I do think she was disrespectful towards him. It is not really her actions that bother me, it is her reasons. Just because Jon was a bastard, she viewed him as inferior. When Robb said he wanted to make Jon his heir, Cat acted irrationally. Honestly, if Jon had not joined the Nights Watch,he would have been a great heir to Winterfell, even as a bastard. He was, after all, the last son of Eddard Stark.

Jon was a terrible choice in how he was a member of the Night's Watch.

[The Angels' Prophet]

Jon was a terrible choice in how he was a member of the Night's Watch.

Yeah. If he gets news of Robb's will, and becomes Lord of Winterfell or KITN, I will be really mad. It isn't in his character. He said the words, and took his vows. He isn't going to break them anytime soon. The only time he did, was for love. I can forgive him that, honestly.

[Kuther2000]

I am not saying Cat was inclined to be decent to Jon, but at the same time, I do think she was disrespectful towards him. It is not really her actions that bother me, it is her reasons. Just because Jon was a bastard, she viewed him as inferior. When Robb said he wanted to make Jon his heir, Cat acted irrationally. Honestly, if Jon had not joined the Nights Watch,he would have been a great heir to Winterfell, even as a bastard. He was, after all, the last son of Eddard Stark.

Basically, I am saying that Cat holds Jon's Bastard birth against him, while I do not think Elia would've. That is just my opinon, based on how much we know about her character.

And as to Elia's understanding of Rhaegar's intentions, I think she knew he was trying to recreate a prophecy and what-not. Three heads of the dragon and all that. That is what I meant by her being understanding about it. I also am pretty sure Elia had a lover or two on the side herself. She was Oberyn's sister, after all ;)

I think more than anything it wasn't the fact that Jon was a bastard that made Cat think of him as inferior if she does. It was the fact that Jon was Ned's bastard if that makes sense. He went against social conventions in raising the kid with his trueborn children in his wife's face. She also knows that she wasn't Ned's first choice. She probably thought regularly how Ned was basically saddled with her because his brother died and how maybe he had someone he truly loved and would have married.

We don't even know if Elia would have had anything to do with Jon. Just because she doesn't use his status (whatever it would be) against him doesn't mean she would be involved in his life. If some people are right, she has even more worry on her hands than Catelyn. A bastard Jon is a mere nuisance a trueborn Jon is a possible threat. There was even someone upthread who said Rhaegar would love Jon more than any of Elia's chidren because Lyanna was his mother and would have made him his heir. This is exactly the situation that would be feared and in the back of everyone's mind. Aegon his eldest by his dornish political wife beind displaced by Jon his younger son by his true love wife. This is even more cause why Elia should be against it. This is asking for another Dance of Dragons with the Dornish backing Aegon and the North backing Jon. I would hope that Rhaegar isn't that stupid.

We don't really have examples of wives taking care of their husbands other children or really being around them. Ellaria Sand doesn't count. She is not Oberyn's wife. She can also get away with alot more than Elia could because she is illegitimate and not married. Oberyn also had his oldest four when they weren't together.

I read something not to long ago and I don't know if it is true but I will put it out there, Aegon's sister-wives Rhaenys and Visenya were always competing for Aegon. They used their children in that way too.

[Trinton07]

I think Elia would be better than Cat. First off Cat's a moron who blames Jon for the affair instead of the guy who she thinks cheated on her ( i hate Cat). But also I think Elia already knew that there wasn't too much love in her marriage; she might now feel as betrayed as Cat did, because she already knew that Rhagear didn't truly love her. I don't think she would just brush it off though. Like people in this thread are all "pshhh she's Dornish they don't care about affairs" i mean its still an affair I don't think anyone is gonna be totally cool with that.

Honestly we don't see too much of the dynamic between Ned and Jon in the books, but I think Ned was a pretty good dad overall; most of Jon's problems seemed to come from Cat (who's the worst character ever)

[Minsc]

I think Elia would be better than Cat. First off Cat's a moron who blames Jon for the affair instead of the guy who she thinks cheated on her ( i hate Cat). But also I think Elia already knew that there wasn't too much love in her marriage; she might now feel as betrayed as Cat did, because she already knew that Rhagear didn't truly love her. I don't think she would just brush it off though. Like people in this thread are all "pshhh she's Dornish they don't care about affairs" i mean its still an affair I don't think anyone is gonna be totally cool with that.

Honestly we don't see too much of the dynamic between Ned and Jon in the books, but I think Ned was a pretty good dad overall; most of Jon's problems seemed to come from Cat (who's the worst character ever)

Jon's problems come from Ned being a shitty father/husband that refuses to explain his actions or act in a socially proscribed manner.

[jmondrag]

I think it's a little hard to speculate. We have no idea how Rhaegar treated Aegon and Rhaenys so it's hard to say how he would have treated a bastard, assuming him and Lyanna were never joined in marriage. Going up against The Ned in terms of parenting though..I don't think anyone would match up. Ned instilled so many important life lessons in Jon and I just don't think the Targaryen's family streak is as great as the Starks'.

[Trinton07]

Jon's problems come from Ned being a shitty father/husband that refuses to explain his actions or act in a socially proscribed manner.

yeah idk, Ned didn't exactly make it easy for anyone by never talking about the affair and making it like, some big haunting secret hanging over everyone's head all the time. They all know its there but they're forbidden to talk about it. if the R+L=J thing is true then it helps explain his actions; but still pretty messed up for both cat and jon.

Cat still sucks though imo

[Kuther2000]

I don't think Cat is the worst character ever. I mean really. She is worst than rapist and murderers. That's insane. It wasn't like she beat and abused the kid then I would totally have a problem with that. She just didn't deal with him and she didn't have too. He isn't her kid. She was doesn't deal with Theon either or the other motherless children of Winterfell. Jon has a parent his name is Ned.

Elia may not have been involved with Jon either. Does she have to be? This isn't a modern marriage and it is a big castle. Hell, Rhaegar was away from his family for an entire year. Jon would have a father who would take care of him Rhaegar. He would have the best nannies and teachers in the world. He would be doted on as a prince. He would know who is mother is. Why would Elia need to have anything to do with him? She isn't his mother and not every mother is maternal especially to other people's children.

[Batman]

I don't see Ned running off with a teenage girl and leaving Jon in the power of a madman.