The Night's Prince Posted July 9, 2013 Share Posted July 9, 2013 Warning: require_once() [function.require-once]: Unable to allocate memory for pool. in /home/sites/westeros.org/forum_web/ironthrone/sources/base/core.php on line 1200Warning: include() [function.include]: Unable to allocate memory for pool. in /home/sites/westeros.org/forum_web/ironthrone/sources/classes/class_localization.php on line 835Neither Catelyn or Elia would have been a parent to Jon, thus your argument has no merit.Not believing she doesn't have a responsibility for Jon doesn't mean that she can do no wrong.Tell me what you think she's done flat out wrong without trying to justify it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R'hllor the Fabulous Posted July 9, 2013 Share Posted July 9, 2013 You're such a Stark fanboy it's so amusingAnd no, Robert was not a better man than Rhaegar.Brilliant arguments to counter his. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kittykatknits Posted July 9, 2013 Share Posted July 9, 2013 Tell me what you think she's done flat out wrong without trying to justify it.Not bothering to explain herself in sufficient detail all the time so that readers can figure out that she's the smartest character in the books. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Minsc Posted July 9, 2013 Share Posted July 9, 2013 Tell me what you think she's done flat out wrong without trying to justify it.It was wrong for her to snap at Jon at Bran's besides, even though she was in unbelievable grief. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nami Posted July 9, 2013 Share Posted July 9, 2013 Brilliant arguments to counter his.Do we really need to repeat everytime that Robert had 90845039485043985043 bastards and never cared for any of them? Left a bunch of fatherless kids, had no responsibility over anything and was just drunk, brute and ignorant (according to Cersei)? Oh, and was abusive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Minsc Posted July 9, 2013 Share Posted July 9, 2013 Do we really need to repeat everytime that Robert had 90845039485043985043 bastards and never cared for any of them? Left a bunch of fatherless kids, had no responsibility over anything and was just drunk, brute and ignorant (according to Cersei)? Oh, and was abusive.Rhaegar abandoned his trueborn children to chase some 14 year old tail. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ned's Epic Beard Posted July 9, 2013 Share Posted July 9, 2013 Do we really need to repeat everytime that Robert had 90845039485043985043 bastards and never cared for any of them? Left a bunch of fatherless kids, had no responsibility over anything and was just drunk, brute and ignorant (according to Cersei)? Oh, and was abusive.Robert did't abandon any child or abused any when Rheagar was abandoning his 2 legit children and wife. If Rheagar had lived, he might have trurned into a beast his father was. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pikachu101 Posted July 9, 2013 Share Posted July 9, 2013 Rhaegar abandoned his trueborn children to chase some 14 year old tail.They're both as bad as each other, you can't really put Robert on a pedestal above Rhaegar when it comes to parenting Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2fingers Posted July 10, 2013 Share Posted July 10, 2013 OK, I read the links and aside from talking about how beautiful he looks and short comments about how people liked him there is really nothing else. Is part of the appeal because he is a mysterious figure? If so, I understand but I just can't see how anybody can say they love a character they know next to nothing about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mulled Wino Posted July 10, 2013 Share Posted July 10, 2013 Neither Catelyn or Elia would have been a parent to Jon, thus your argument has no merit.textual evidence re Elia please? There's actually more evidence that she would. Bastards arent treated so poorly in dorne Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mulled Wino Posted July 10, 2013 Share Posted July 10, 2013 Not bothering to explain herself in sufficient detail all the time so that readers can figure out that she's the smartest character in the books.Great fawking answer. I may not agree but props to you Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Minsc Posted July 10, 2013 Share Posted July 10, 2013 textual evidence re Elia please? There's actually more evidence that she would. Bastards arent treated so poorly in dorneWe have nothing that shows that Dorne treats them the same as trueborn children. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mulled Wino Posted July 10, 2013 Share Posted July 10, 2013 We have nothing that shows that Dorne treats them the same as trueborn children. At least we have bastards in dorne that dont seem to have the same complex as Jon. I dont see how you can be 100% certain, enough so that you can just dismiss my discussion (which actually you jumped in late on and are not accurate at all about). You're really just being a dick. I never said Elia would act as a mother to Jon, nor did I imply it. I said its punishing an innocent child to keep them in your household with your other kids and not take responsibility for them. If Elia fostered Jon somewhere, I would have no problem. So GFY and stop creating arguments I never made because you are defensive about Cat. I also said I blame Ned for Cat's treatment of Jon. It may be slightly off topic but it was a direct response to another post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Minsc Posted July 10, 2013 Share Posted July 10, 2013 At least we have bastards in dorne that dont seem to have the same complex as Jon.Do we ever actually get any of their POVs, moreover the main Dornish bastards we encounter don't have any trueborn siblings.You're really just being a dick. I never said Elia would act as a mother to Jon, nor did I imply it. I said its punishing an innocent child to keep them in your household with your other kids and not take responsibility for them. If Elia fostered Jon somewhere, I would have no problem. So GFY and stop creating arguments I never made because you are defensive about Cat. I also said I blame Ned for Cat's treatment of Jon.I have never once attacked you personally unlike how you have just responded thus I don't know how I am the one being the dick. Instead, I have just argued against the point that is a woman punishing a child,that isn't hers, if she refuses to take a parental responsibility for them. Moreover, you did say that they would be a parent to the child thus the equivalent to being a mother. So how about instead of insulting me and telling me to get out you actually chill yourself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kuther2000 Posted July 10, 2013 Share Posted July 10, 2013 At least we have bastards in dorne that dont seem to have the same complex as Jon. I dont see how you can be 100% certain, enough so that you can just dismiss my discussion (which actually you jumped in late on and are not accurate at all about).You're really just being a dick. I never said Elia would act as a mother to Jon, nor did I imply it. I said its punishing an innocent child to keep them in your household with your other kids and not take responsibility for them. If Elia fostered Jon somewhere, I would have no problem. So GFY and stop creating arguments I never made because you are defensive about Cat. I also said I blame Ned for Cat's treatment of Jon.It may be slightly off topic but it was a direct response to another post.Wasn't everything Ned's decision? Catelyn never had a choice in anything. I understand what you mean if she was actually allowed to have Jon fostered somewhere else and kept him, but was still mean. But she wasn't allowed any of that. She didn't have any power. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Wolves Posted July 10, 2013 Share Posted July 10, 2013 Wasn't everything Ned's decision? Catelyn never had a choice in anything. I understand what you mean if she was actually allowed to have Jon fostered somewhere else and kept him, but was still mean. But she wasn't allowed any of that. She didn't have any power.Catelyn shouldn't have any power or say about anything Jon related. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grand old duke of stark Posted July 10, 2013 Share Posted July 10, 2013 To paraphrase a line from the show, Jon knew that his real father had died at Kings Landing. Ned inculcated every precept, every experience, every bit of moral support needed to make Jon (and the other Stark kids) upstanding, responsible, good, capable, and loving human beings. Catelyn notwithstanding, Ned seemed to treat Jon no different from the rest of the family. He may have even deliberately let Cat's resentment and the 'bastard' label be part of the toughening he knew Jon would need in the future. Rheagar might have been a cool guy, a Westerosi Renaissance man, but he doesn't have much of a reputation as a father. Besides, whether Rheagar is Jon's biological dad or not scarcely matters when it comes to the parenting aspect of "fathering". The fathering was done by Ned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Squire Dalbridge Posted July 10, 2013 Share Posted July 10, 2013 Propably not. I'm not sure if this has been discussed before but the description of Rhaegar (specially by Ser Barristan, SoS) reminds me of the one with Asperger syndrome. I believe he did not fell in love/get crushed on Lyanna but somehow realised it has to be done (for some Ice & Fire -prophecy). I'm not quite sure that he is emotionally as capable of a close relationship with a living human being as a parent must needs to be. And Ned sure was, he's best of them all in that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Prince of Ice Posted July 10, 2013 Share Posted July 10, 2013 This shouldnt even be a question. Your comparing one of the greatest fathers in Westeros to possibly one of the worst.Rhaegar abandoned his wife and children because he was obsessed with prophecy and wanted to have little DireDragons. Rhaegar was selfish and obviously didnt think how his actions would feel to his family or how said actions would affect his family.This is isnt even a competition, end of conversation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Black Hawk Posted July 10, 2013 Share Posted July 10, 2013 NO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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