Stannis and Renly

[Night'sQueen]

I know I'm in the minority on the use of dark magic so I won't bother trying to convince anyone. Everyone draws certain arbitrary lines on the use of violence, weapons, etc., when it's acceptable or justifiable and when it is not.

My personal opinion is that Melisandre and her sort of magic will be the downfall of an otherwise honorable man, and I find that tragic.

[Starfell]

It's a major failing among the cult of stanstans that no one will object to the shadowbabies.

I'm still waiting for an answer about Renly violating the rules of a parley. Anyone? Anyone?

What's wrong with shadowbabies? Your entire argument is built on the premise that shadowbabies are "inherently wrong" but you aren't backing that up with anything. There's nothing to suggest that creating the shadowbabies is an inherently evil act, for all we know Mel could, if she wanted to, pop one out to save a child from a burning building - assuming she had a man on hand to impregnate her - would that be evil?

Unlike using a human assassin, a shadowbaby doesn't place an extra life at risk and the entire physical cost of the creation is born by the person who is ordering the assassination and apparently they recover from it given time. Not only that, but there's no collateral damage. To me that seems a damn sight more morally defensible than asking somebody else to perform an assassination for you, knowing that they'll likely get caught even if they are successful and may have to cut their way through innocent guardsmen/squires/servants to get close enough to carry out the mission; or indeed, leading hundreds of men into an unwinnable battle in which they'll likely all die futilely

[Djinn]

I know I'm in the minority on the use of dark magic so I won't bother trying to convince anyone. Everyone draws certain arbitrary lines on the use of violence, weapons, etc., when it's acceptable or justifiable and when it is not.

My personal opinion is that Melisandre and her sort of magic will be the downfall of an otherwise honorable man, and I find that tragic.

What's your opinion on warging, magical direwolfs, dragons and poison?

[Night'sQueen]

What's wrong with shadowbabies? Your entire argument is built on the premise that shadowbabies are "inherently wrong" but you aren't backing that up with anything. There's nothing to suggest that creating the shadowbabies is an inherently evil act, for all we know Mel could, if she wanted to, pop one out to save a child from a burning building - assuming she had a man on hand to impregnate her - would that be evil?

That's just hilarious! :rofl:

Not an argument, just an opinion. Shadowbabies are bad news IMO, but I don't really care that much about Stannis or Renly. On the other hand, if Jojen Paste turns out to be real I will go bananas. (And I will not defend it.)

[Stannis' shadow babies]

We are not evil.

[Starfell]

That's just hilarious! :rofl:

I'm hoping it'll be a scene in TWoW ;)

[King Robert's Warhammer]

We are not evil.

You just do evil things.

[Stannis' shadow babies]

You just do evil things.

We're the drones of Westeros. It's not our fault. We're just the product of some sort of...technology. Our 'dad' needed us, and we delivered.

[TalalOfDorne]

EDIT: Wrong Thread :bang:

[Night'sQueen]

What's your opinion on warging, magical direwolfs, dragons and poison?

I think I take your point, if you are going for magic is magic and is not inherently good or bad. Warging can be put to good or evil uses, etc., but because the shadowbabies seem to be diminishing Stannis is some way, I think there is something rotten about them. So even if a shadowbaby was used to rescue a cat stuck in a tree, I would still be wary about it.

[Dany Girl]

Not that I think it would matter to Renly, but to be fair to him, he considered Stannis an usurper as well. He though of Joffrey as the true king. From his point of view there was probably little reason to bend to another usurper. If you are skipping 2 heirs to the throne, what's the difference from skipping 3? Though I don't think it would have made a difference anyway since he planned on usurping Joffrey's, Tommen's and possibly Myrcella's position anyway.

But Renley knew about Joffery, Myrcella, and Tommen being bastards, therefore not actual heirs. He most likely would have had them and Cersie and Jamie put to death for treason if he had lived and won. Stannis will most likely do the same if he wins. Cersie and Jamie committed treason by putting their bastard on the throne.

[WhatIsDeadMayNeverLive]

There are only two types of legitimate military maneuvers in ASOIAF - battle and siege, three if you count reaving. What Stannis did was a fratricide. It was even less legitimate than the Red Wedding.

[Fat Mac]

But Renley knew about Joffery, Myrcella, and Tommen being bastards, therefore not actual heirs. He most likely would have had them and Cersie and Jamie put to death for treason if he had lived and won. Stannis will most likely do the same if he wins. Cersie and Jamie committed treason by putting their bastard on the throne.

Renly didn't know about Cersei's kids. Even when Stannis sent the letter, he still didn't fully believe him.

There are only two types of legitimate military maneuvers in ASOIAF - battle and siege, three if you count reaving. What Stannis did was a fratricide. It was even less legitimate than the Red Wedding.

And where is this written? Any move done successfully is a legitimate move.

[Night'sQueen]

You just do evil things.

You started this whole thing Bobs Bannerman! I like your Defending the Indefensible thread a lot more. :P

[King Robert's Warhammer]

You started this whole thing Bobs Bannerman! I like your Defending the Indefensible thread a lot more. :P

Me to! It's taken me ages to come up with any threads that were even vaguely interesting.

[Night'sQueen]

Me to! It's taken me ages to come up with any threads that were even vaguely interesting.

Well done -- with the other one. But remember, a good act does not wash out the bad... ;)

[King Robert's Warhammer]

Well done -- with the other one. But remember, a good act does not wash out the bad... ;)

Stannis could learn from that wisdom.

[Lord Bronn Stokeworth]

It was likely kinslaying (it depends on what counts as kinslaying, do you have to be the one to actually do or does ordering someone count)?

It was certainly a legitimate act of war. Assassination of the enemy leader is a tactic. He gave Renly no promise of safety of assassination nor did he treat Renly as an ally. I do consider assassination reprehensible when it is performed on an ally like the *Red Wedding or Purple Wedding. But as I said, Stannis gave Renly no promise nor did he give Renly a reason to think he was an ally.

*Freys, Boltons, and Karstarks only. I actually don't see a problem with Tywin's hand because he was a declared enemy of Robb Stark. I say that as someone who hates Tywin.

[mrunderhill]

It was likely kinslaying (it depends on what counts as kinslaying, do you have to be the one to actually do or does ordering someone count)?

It was certainly a legitimate act of war. Assassination of the enemy leader is a tactic. He gave Renly no promise of safety of assassination nor did he treat Renly as an ally. I do consider assassination reprehensible when it is performed on an ally like the *Red Wedding or Purple Wedding. But as I said, Stannis gave Renly no promise nor did he give Renly a reason to think he was an ally.

*Freys, Boltons, and Karstarks only. I actually don't see a problem with Tywin's hand because he was a declared enemy of Robb Stark. I say that as someone who hates Tywin.

The problem with Tywin assassinating Robb was not the assassination, but that it broke guest right. Guest right is important, because it is a fundamental law for a society to progress and function. Apart from that assassinating Robb is a completely legitimate move. I don't even blame the Freys for trying to kill Robb just the manner they did it.

But Renley knew about Joffery, Myrcella, and Tommen being bastards, therefore not actual heirs. He most likely would have had them and Cersie and Jamie put to death for treason if he had lived and won. Stannis will most likely do the same if he wins. Cersie and Jamie committed treason by putting their bastard on the throne.

Has already been pointed out, but Renly did not believe the incest rumours. He literally laughed at Stannis for suggesting something so absurd.

[Lord Bronn Stokeworth]

The problem with Tywin assassinating Robb was not the assassination, but that it broke guest right. Guest right is important, because it is a fundamental law for a society to progress and function. Apart from that assassinating Robb is a completely legitimate move. I don't even blame the Freys for trying to kill Robb just the manner they did it.

Has already been pointed out, but Renly did not believe the incest rumours. He literally laughed at Stannis for suggesting something so absurd.

But Tywin didn't break guest right. I can see why someone might think he did, but really it is a grey area with no definite answer. Though I see it being solely on the Freys.

And I agree. I could actually side with the Freys opposing Robb if they had been upfront about it. But it was how they did it was terrible and unforgivable.