Stannis and Renly

[E-Ro]

...or either of those two self-centered jackasses could simply back down. And I include Stannis in that number.

Stannis backing down creates a dangerous precedent for war anytime someone dies.

Yes, thousands years of tradition. Cain killing Abel was a Big Deal. To this day, murder within the closest family (be that brother killing brother, parent killing child or the other way around) is seen as something more special than "just" any murder. BTW, before you say "tradition schmadition" - that's also the reason that allows Stannis to presume to inheriting anything from Bob, because just being born as a second child of Steffon and Cassana is hardly a big accomplishment worthy of throne.

Is that what this is about? real life religious beliefs? Well, i wont debate that(im not religious at all) The tradition stannis is defending prevents war and brings order and peace. Laying down to renly so some people on a forum dont call him a kinslayer is most likely not high in stannis' priority.

Perhaps he would, or perhaps he would survive. Thing is Stannis knows he killed Renly and he knows it wasn`t right thing. And having coincousness to be tormented by it is one of the reasons why I love him more than others

Renly was giving orders on how to treat stannis body right before he died.

Tywin. Remember how he justified RW?

At the rw thousands died, whats more those men were killed by people they thought freind, they had no idea they were enemies. It was a betrayal, not comparable in any way to a man killing another who knows they are trying to kill each other.

[no_payne_no_gain]

By all the laws of Westeros, Renly was a traitor. He committed treason and the penalty for treason is death. Stannis was perfectly within his rights as king to have his brother, a rebel lord, killed.

While this is entirely true, Stannis did not kill Renly in a manner that was at all honorable. If Stan had killed Renly like Robb did Karstark, or Ned did Will, it would have been okay.

[Ser Pounce FTW]

I still don't understand why killing renly was a big deal, who cares if they were family? In real life, there are tons of siblings who have petty disagreements, don't talk to each other for years on end, or at all, siblings who try to steal inheritances where there is no will(and get sued) and yes, there are numerous cases of siblings killing their brothers/sisters. They both new the stakes, it was war, they both tried to kill each other, Stannis won. Renlys claim was based on might. well as it turns out stannis had more might then he did.

Westeros cares that they wer family. When it comes to Fantasy, world building really lets us know what is ok and what is not. Kinslaying is not. Also, saying that in real life tons of siblings disagree and treat each other poorly is fine. Saying there are numerous sibling killings as a justification for Stannis' actions is not. In real life, it is never ok to kill your sibling. Likewise, in Westeros, it is not ok to kill your sibling.

But then again, it was war. People die during wars and sometimes sibling faces sibling. They fight. Sometimes they die. That's the tragedy of war. Sending an assassin to kill someon is not war, it is murder. Full stop. Sending a black magic assassin is completely unjustifiable with the exception of the ends makes any action worthwhile. And no where is that justification accepted that I'm aware of.

Tywin. Remember how he justified RW?

This! Almost everyone says Tywin's justification of the RW is horrific. But somehow it's ok for Stannis?

ETA:

Laying down to renly so some people on a forum dont call him a kinslayer is most likely not high in stannis' priority.

True. Stannis' priority wasn't his brother or the people that would die during his fight for the throne. Stannis' priority was winning the throne - his by rights - no matter what the cost. No price was too high to pay.

[Joyful Union]

If stannis had not of killed renly, he would be the dead one.

And if Stannis hadn't layed siege to Storms End, Renly wouldn't be trying to kill Stannis.

[Mladen]

At the rw thousands died, whats more those men were killed by people they thought freind, they had no idea they were enemies. It was a betrayal, not comparable in any way to a man killing another who knows they are trying to kill each other.

Oh, I am not comparing the two events. I just compared your line with Tywin`s line to Tyrion when the news came... Interestingly, they were the same... And that speaks a lot.

[The Great Walrus]

And if Stannis hadn't layed siege to Storms End, Renly wouldn't be trying to kill Stannis.

And if Renly hadn't declared himself king Stannis wouldn't have laid siege to Storm's End...

[Leif]

While this is entirely true, Stannis did not kill Renly in a manner that was at all honorable. If Stan had killed Renly like Robb did Karstark, or Ned did Will, it would have been okay.

Renly had a bigger army, Stannis had enemies on every side. Common sense is needed in war, not honor. What would be honorable about sending your men to their deaths when victory was all but impossible? As I've mentioned earlier, Samurai were honorable and even they employed assassins.

[E-Ro]

Westeros cares that they wer family. When it comes to Fantasy, world building really lets us know what is ok and what is not. Kinslaying is not. Also, saying that in real life tons of siblings disagree and treat each other poorly is fine. Saying there are numerous sibling killings as a justification for Stannis' actions is not. In real life, it is never ok to kill your sibling. Likewise, in Westeros, it is not ok to kill your sibling.

Its ok if your defending yourself from a sibling that is trying to force you to break the biggest law in your country, i would also say its ok if the tow are at war, and both of those apply to stannis and renly.

But then again, it was war. People die during wars and sometimes sibling faces sibling. They fight. Sometimes they die. That's the tragedy of war. Sending an assassin to kill someon is not war, it is murder. Full stop. Sending a black magic assassin is completely unjustifiable with the exception of the ends makes any action worthwhile. And no where is that justification accepted that I'm aware of.

Assassination is a part of war, that is a fact, im sorry if you just cant accept that for the sake of your argument but that's a fact.

This! Almost everyone says Tywin's justification of the RW is horrific. But somehow it's ok for Stannis?

how is the red wedding and the death of one man in any way comparable? Stannis swore no fealty to renly, he wasnt killing a man he was sworn to.

And if Stannis hadn't layed siege to Storms End, Renly wouldn't be trying to kill Stannis.

Before that renly tried to steal a throne that for all he knew belonged to his brothers kids, but renly just didn't care, if he did not march on stannis/ capitol he would be alive.

[Joyful Union]

And if Renly hadn't declared himself king Stannis wouldn't have laid siege to Storm's End...

Yes, but Stannis wouldn't have been in a life or death scenario like E-Ro is suggesting without the siege. It was Stannis who got himself into that situation where it was kill or be killed.

[mcb]

Renly had a bigger army, Stannis had enemies on every side. Common sense is needed in war, not honor.

Agreed, Stannis should be the one to bend the knee, for all the excellent reasons you listed.

[The Great Walrus]

Yes, but Stannis wouldn't have been in a life or death scenario like E-Ro is suggesting without the siege. It was Stannis who got himself into that situation where it was kill or be killed.

Would you rather Stannis lay down and let Renly usurp his crown?

[Leif]

Agreed, Stannis should be the one to bend the knee, for all the excellent reasons you listed.

Why would he bend the knee, when he had a better claim to the throne, was able to take out his enemy, and add more men to his army?

[E-Ro]

Its good to know that some of you are willing to let your brothers/sisters take advantage of you and abuse you, force you to break the law, insult your child, threaten to kill you if you dont go along with them etc and your more then happy to just lay down and take it.

In stannis place, i would have made the same choice. War is hell, the harder you wage it the faster it will be over, if you can remove one man and end things, you do it.

[Joyful Union]

Would you rather Stannis lay down and let Renly usurp his crown?

Yep. That would have been pretty great. Joffrey would probably have been off the throne, Lannisters's would've been dealt a crushing blow, caught in a pincer between the Starks and Renly. The only people it would suck for are Stannis and his supporters.

[TalalOfDorne]

Its good to know that some of you are willing to let your brothers/sisters take advantage of you and abuse you, force you to break the law, insult your child, threaten to kill you if you dont go along with them etc and your more then happy to just lay down and take it.

This just got me thinking. Would Stannis really just die and leave Shireen with Renly? Would any parent do that?

[Winterz]

Technically it was kinslaying, even though Renly would've gladly killed him on a battlefield.

Wrong, King Walrus, Lord Protector of the Seals. I'm pretty sure Renly gave strict orders about trying to avoid harming his brother on the battlefield, he wanted to see Stannis defeated, not killed.

[E-Ro]

Wrong, King Walrus, Lord Protector of the Seals. I'm pretty sure Renly gave strict orders about trying to avoid harming his brother on the battlefield, he wanted to see Stannis defeated, not killed.

Nope, he tells his men not to parade his head around on a spike.

[Joyful Union]

Its good to know that some of you are willing to let your brothers/sisters take advantage of you and abuse you, force you to break the law, insult your child, threaten to kill you if you dont go along with them etc and your more then happy to just lay down and take it.

Seems preferable to killing my own brother in any case.

[The Great Walrus]

Seems preferable to killing my own brother in any case.

Well you very well may be happy with being exploited by your sibling in this case, but that doesn't mean everyone else must follow your example.

[Winterz]

Nope, he tells his men not to parade his head around on a spike.

Even so, Renly was no kinslayer and had Stannis survived the battle, I'm sure he'd see no harm done to his brother.