Does anyone think The Mad Mouse captures Sansa and takes her to KL?

[Lord Damian]

Well, KL could be the place where Sandor comes to rescue her.

Given by how much Sansa is scared by Cersei, Sansa and Cersei will meet again. Sansa will remember LF's advice that there is nothing wrong with being afraid the trick is just not to show it along with Osmund Kettleback telling her that wolves are brave. Sansa will be a wolf in her trial showing little fear towards the person she fears most, and demonstrate how much she has grown.

If we ever get the epic dual between ungregor and the hound it would be over Sansa's fate. KL is where that would happen.

[Light a wight tonight]

Why would anyone take the Mad Mouse's story at face value?

[Jon Wolfwalker]

Given what we know of the MM he is sly and intelligent, it's also hinted he is actually good with a blade. He picks up on things very well e.g. Brienne's search for Sansa and Ser Longbough's exaggerations. He seems like a good opponent for LF. Have we actually seen anyone with martial skills play the game with him(or anyone else for that matter) and know they are playing it?

I for one wouldn't mind him using his skill with a blade and mind to make LF do as he wants or as Sansa wants.

[Petyr Patter]

If we take Aegon to be a rough equivalent of Henry VII, then Vary's and co might try to use Sansa as a way to legitimize their factions rule. Lets say Aegon declared an intent to marry Sansa as a way of joining their Houses, as Henry did with Anne of York. A maneuver like that draws back to the episode that Lyanna and Rhaegar absconded together, and would be key to restoring legitimacy to Targaryen rule in the regions that worked together to bring them down. It also falls in nicely with what Varys seemingly wanted from the Starks, that he wished to draw them away from the Baratheon cause and into the support of a Targaryen restoration.

Keep in mind, right now House Stark is a famous name, a burned out fortress occupied by another family, two daughters married into enemy houses, and a mute's insistence that a 5 year son is on the most remote island in Westeros.

Really, only the name has worth, and even then only in the North and to a lesser degree in the Riverlands. Marrying Sansa does not give Aegon legitimation, it just gives him a highborn wife with nothing but her name, her pride, and presumably her "maidenhead." Its not like the famous for his honour Eddard Stark is giving her away and insisting before witnesses that Aegon is the real deal. More practically, marrying a Redwyne would give him one of the richer islands and a fleet. Marrying one of Randyll Tarly's daughters gets him one of the most respected commanders in the Reach and presumably at least a few thousand men. Even marrying a Frey would give him a bridge, which is much more useful for conquering the 7 kingdoms.

The houses in the North are not going to march South to put Aegon on the throne just because he married Sansa. A Lord of Winterfell might march south to put a son in law on the throne, and his bannermen would follow, but its not something they would on their own accord, especially considering how poorly the Targaryans treated the Starks less than 20 years ago. They are sick of Southron rule, hence the reason they crowned Robb King in the North in the first place. Perhaps if Aegon went to the North, showed his charisma and sense of justice, honor, and duty, and showed he understood Northern culture, they might declare for him... however, it looks Stannis came up with that plan first.

Littlefinger's plan for her, if he's on the level (and I don't think we can find one point where he's both lied to her and been caught about it) is basically an appeal to the honor of the Knight's of the Vale to retake their Lord Paramount's wife's holdings. This only works if there is a) a Lord Paramount and B) Sansa is married to him, and c) the Lord Paramount has the popular support of his bannermen.

[The Mother of The Others]

Why do we want an insane rodent to abscond with anyone? So we can have lots of Sansa-in-the-woods chapters while she's on the lamb? ...... Oh! Now I see the benefit of it! (that was a lie)

[The Meeraculous Third Reed]

I think he tries but getting someone from the Gates of the Moon to King's Landing covertly isn't an easy thing for a single Hedge Knight.

I'd say the true threat Ser Shadrich poses to Littlefinger is that he can easily inform Varys of the location of Sansa Stark.

Only problem with that is that Varys is incognito and an enemy of the crown, so trying to do so serves little to no purpose.

For Shadrich to do what some are suggesting would be sheer lunacy.

[Blackfish Tully]

Given what we know of the MM he is sly and intelligent, it's also hinted he is actually good with a blade. He picks up on things very well e.g. Brienne's search for Sansa and Ser Longbough's exaggerations. He seems like a good opponent for LF. Have we actually seen anyone with martial skills play the game with him(or anyone else for that matter) and know they are playing it?

I for one wouldn't mind him using his skill with a blade and mind to make LF do as he wants or as Sansa wants.

I wonder how good with a blade Littlefinger really is? his grandfather and father must have been very skilled to win a lordship in the Vale and getting Hoster Tully to foster Petyr . Petyr's father would have made sure his son had martial training and when he fostered at Riverrun he would have trained along side Edmure as Jon did with Robb. Just because he was beaten by a 20 year old phenom in Brandon Stark while he was only 16 does not mean he is totally without skill with a blade. It would be just like Littlefinger to keep his skill secret and play the weakling to keep his enemies off balance. Maybe I'm crazy but I believe that there is more to Littlefinger martial ability then we are led to believe.

[Lord Damian]

i think littlefinger is good a manipulating people and fudging numbers regarding coinage. That is it. Still formidable but when it comes to fighting, he can pay certain people to do it for him. Look what he did with the Gold cloaks against Ned. He could have told Janos Slynt the truth and would have secured the throne for Stannis as Ned requested but he instead went to Cercei and made sure that Slynt was loyal to herin exchange for Harrenhal and its lordship.

[Light a wight tonight]

I wonder how good with a blade Littlefinger really is? his grandfather and father must have been very skilled to win a lordship in the Vale and getting Hoster Tully to foster Petyr . Petyr's father would have made sure his son had martial training and when he fostered at Riverrun he would have trained along side Edmure as Jon did with Robb. Just because he was beaten by a 20 year old phenom in Brandon Stark while he was only 16 does not mean he is totally without skill with a blade. It would be just like Littlefinger to keep his skill secret and play the weakling to keep his enemies off balance. Maybe I'm crazy but I believe that there is more to Littlefinger martial ability then we are led to believe.

The lordship in the Vale consists of a tower, a few acres of rocky soil and a couple-dozen sheep. Most Westerosi lords find it laughable, which is one source of LF's anger with the establishment.

He was nearly killed by Brandon Stark, which in all likelihood taught him that there are better ways to do things than force of arms, and he's prospered by avoiding getting personally involved in fighting.

[Blackfish Tully]

The lordship in the Vale consists of a tower, a few acres of rocky soil and a couple-dozen sheep. Most Westerosi lords find it laughable, which is one source of LF's anger with the establishment.

He was nearly killed by Brandon Stark, which in all likelihood taught him that there are better ways to do things than force of arms, and he's prospered by avoiding getting personally involved in fighting.

A lordship is a lordship and most of the people in Westeroes would kill for what Littlefinger was born with and the Lord of the Vale would not make a Bravosi sellsword a landed lord unless he was pretty special warrior.Also Hoster Tully would not take a minor Vale Lord's son to foster unless his father had done him a pretty important service.

Sure Littlefinger realized that there are better ways to do things than force of arms but that does not mean he does not know how to fight.

[Light a wight tonight]

A lordship is a lordship and most of the people in Westeroes would kill for what Littlefinger was born with and the Lord of the Vale would not make a Bravosi sellsword a landed lord unless he was pretty special warrior.Also Hoster Tully would not take a minor Vale Lord's son to foster unless his father had done him a pretty important service.

Sure Littlefinger realized that there are better ways to do things than force of arms but that does not mean he does not know how to fight.

Look at this a different way: the first-rank characters are not primarily fighters. Dany, Cersei, Sansa, LF, Varys, Tyrion. Jon fights, but he's not an elite fighter and it's not his function. Mance cleans his clock in practice. The badasses with swords are all second-tier, Barristan, Jaime (two-handed), Briennne, Sandor, etc.

Whether LF can fight or not is of no importance to the story.

[Djinn]

Once Brienne/Hunt/Pod and Blackfish arrive at the Vale, she will have muscle to destroy LF, and the Mad Mouse & Appleater might actually help.

[The Mountain That Flies]

Once Brienne/Hunt/Pod and Blackfish arrive at the Vale, she will have muscle to destroy LF, and the Mad Mouse & Appleater might actually help.

I think you're a bit optimistic about who will make it to the Vale, but your last bit raises a question: is there anything Sansa could do to manipulate the Mad Mouse into her service? She has nothing to offer him (aside froma theoretical position as a landed knight to the eventually restored Starks), but if her character arc is about her becoming a player of the game, MM might be a good test for her. Lothor Brune seems pretty loyal to Littlefinger, so I don't see him defecting.

As a side note, did MM deduce Sansa was in the Vale and come there to find her, or did he just give up his search for a while to take a paying job? If he figured it out that is some outstading detective work, and he's incredibly smart (and therefore more dangerous). If it's just luck, it's more just cool plotting by GRRM.

[Blackfish Tully]

Look at this a different way: the first-rank characters are not primarily fighters. Dany, Cersei, Sansa, LF, Varys, Tyrion. Jon fights, but he's not an elite fighter and it's not his function. Mance cleans his clock in practice. The badasses with swords are all second-tier, Barristan, Jaime (two-handed), Briennne, Sandor, etc.

Whether LF can fight or not is of no importance to the story.

Why is Cersie a first rank character and Jaimie a second rank character? what is the definition of a first rank character?

[brashcandy]

I think you're a bit optimistic about who will make it to the Vale, but your last bit raises a question: is there anything Sansa could do to manipulate the Mad Mouse into her service? She has nothing to offer him (aside froma theoretical position as a landed knight to the eventually restored Starks), but if her character arc is about her becoming a player of the game, MM might be a good test for her. Lothor Brune seems pretty loyal to Littlefinger, so I don't see him defecting.

I think Lothor is the better test, plus he's already shared some of his family history with Sansa, and she knows of his interest in Mya Stone. Lothor has so far worked well for LF, and has achieved some status in his service, but the problem with LF I would argue is that he doesn't inspire any genuine loyalty, something which Sansa is more adept at. LF is quite good at manipulation and bribes, appealing to baser instincts, whilst Sansa can challenge people to do better and take pride in their actions once again.

[juanml82]

I think Lothor is the better test, plus he's already shared some of his family history with Sansa, and she knows of his interest in Mya Stone. Lothor has so far worked well for LF, and has achieved some status in his service, but the problem with LF I would argue is that he doesn't inspire any genuine loyalty, something which Sansa is more adept at. LF is quite good at manipulation and bribes, appealing to baser instincts, whilst Sansa can challenge people to do better and take pride in their actions once again.

How many people are, or were, loyal to Sansa?

[Blackfish Tully]

I think Lothor is the better test, plus he's already shared some of his family history with Sansa, and she knows of his interest in Mya Stone. Lothor has so far worked well for LF, and has achieved some status in his service, but the problem with LF I would argue is that he doesn't inspire any genuine loyalty, something which Sansa is more adept at. LF is quite good at manipulation and bribes, appealing to baser instincts, whilst Sansa can challenge people to do better and take pride in their actions once again.

How do you know that Littlefinger does not inspire genuine loyalty? Lothor Brune was treated like crap by his "family" and if it wasn't for Littlefinger he would be a ordinary hedge knight serving some minor lord for pennies but because of Littlefinger he is the right hand man for one of the most powerful men in Westeroes and probably paid pretty well and I'm sure Littlefinger has promised him a Lordship sometime in his future so I think Lothor will be very loyal to Littlefinger and will not betray him for Sansa. I'm always surprised about how everybody always assumes that Littlefinger's men will somehow not be as loyal as men who serve the other lords of Westeroes. People are loyal as long as they feel like their loyalty is in their best interest and Littlefinger, probably better than any other Lord, is conscious of working on keeping that loyalty and not taking for granted. A lesson Robb Stark never learned which caused him to have one of his bannermen shove a sword through his heart.

[Jon Wolfwalker]

I think Lothor is the better test, plus he's already shared some of his family history with Sansa, and she knows of his interest in Mya Stone. Lothor has so far worked well for LF, and has achieved some status in his service, but the problem with LF I would argue is that he doesn't inspire any genuine loyalty, something which Sansa is more adept at. LF is quite good at manipulation and bribes, appealing to baser instincts, whilst Sansa can challenge people to do better and take pride in their actions once again.

You are selling it short. Oswell is the better test. If she can sway him then she holds the power to three of Cersei's closest henchmen

[brashcandy]

How many people are, or were, loyal to Sansa?

We've seen her be able to influence the Hound significantly, and even Dontos, who might have been working for LF, but does come to genuinely want to be her "true knight". I also think Sweetrobin will prove to be quite faithful.

How do you know that Littlefinger does not inspire genuine loyalty?

As stated, the man works through bribes, blackmail and manipulation. The only genuine loyalty he seems to have gained was Lysa Tully, and that relationship was built on his own twisted use of her. He understands quite well how to use what it is people desire in the way of material things, but I don't believe he is able to connect in a meaningful way with others, much less inspire positive change in them. This is something Sansa can do well through her empathetic abilities, and it allowed her to have some help and support in KL, when she was nothing more than a traitor's daughter. Now up to this point LF's way of doing things has worked very well for him, but I think that approach will prove faulty/fatal in the Vale.

Lothor Brune was treated like crap by his "family" and if it wasn't for Littlefinger he would be a ordinary hedge knight serving some minor lord for pennies but because of Littlefinger he is the right hand man for one of the most powerful men in Westeroes and probably paid pretty well and I'm sure Littlefinger has promised him a Lordship sometime in his future so I think Lothor will be very loyal to Littlefinger and will not betray him for Sansa.

Yes, but when did doing well in an employer's service prevent someone from leaving for a better opportunity, or coming to have a fundamental problem with said employers over time - see Bronn or the Hound for clarification. Sansa appears to be developing a friendly relationship with Mya Stone, and she's the girl Lothor is very interested in. Obviously Sansa would be doing a bit more than playing matchmaker, but based on Lothor's story, we see a man who has an interest in fostering familial ties and does not appear to be a mercenary opportunist despite having to learn of arms "the hard way." In sum, I think he could be someone Sansa convinces to fight for her, but you're free to disagree.

[Blackfish Tully]

We've seen her be able to influence the Hound significantly, and even Dontos, who might have been working for LF, but does come to genuinely want to be her "true knight". I also think Sweetrobin will prove to be quite faithful.

As stated, the man works through bribes, blackmail and manipulation. The only genuine loyalty he seems to have gained was Lysa Tully, and that relationship was built on his own twisted use of her. He understands quite well how to use what it is people desire in the way of material things, but I don't believe he is able to connect in a meaningful way with others, much less inspire positive change in them. This is something Sansa can do well through her empathetic abilities, and it allowed her to have some help and support in KL, when she was nothing more than a traitor's daughter. Now up to this point LF's way of doing things has worked very well for him, but I think that approach will prove faulty/fatal in the Vale.

Yes, but when did doing well in an employer's service prevent someone from leaving for a better opportunity, or coming to have a fundamental problem with said employers over time - see Bronn or the Hound for clarification. Sansa appears to be developing a friendly relationship with Mya Stone, and she's the girl Lothor is very interested in. Obviously Sansa would be doing a bit more than playing matchmaker, but based on Lothor's story, we see a man who has an interest in fostering familial ties and does not appear to be a mercenary opportunist despite having to learn of arms "the hard way." In sum, I think he could be someone Sansa convinces to fight for her, but you're free to disagree.

Westeroes is in total chaos at the moment , the north is in open rebellion, the riverlands are in shambles, the Tyrells and Lannisters are at each others throats and Aegon is invading and Dany may be right behind him and as an agent of Littlefinger , Lothor Brune knows more about whats going on then most people. With so much chaos going on Lothor, if he's smart, is going to continue to hitch his ride to to the one person who seems to be able best navigate the chaos. Littlefinger is smart, rich, powerful and completely ruthless and has thrived while "better" men like Jon Arryn , Ned Stark, Tywin Lannister have been destroyed. Sansa has to go a long way to prove to somebody like Lothor Brune that she has what it takes to thrive in the chaos that's coming and that she will be the one who will lead him to a better life than Littlefinger has promised.

Also Littlefinger did not "bribe, blackmail or manipulate" Lothor Brune into his service but instead offered him a chance at a better life and has probably promised him a lordship for his service and Lothor will be able to marry somebody like Mya once he gets that lordship and he will be loyal to Littlefinger as long as he feels that the loyalty is deserved.