Tyrion Lannister sexist?

[Kolantero]

Of course he knew. He's not an idiot - a 13 year old who was a virgin until two weeks ago wouldn't agree to be paid to have sex with a whole barrack of soldiers. He seriously considered murdering his father because of this whole incident back in AGOT.

I don't see how a 13 yo, virgin himself would realize whether his sexual partner was actually a virgin, or would even know how things work in that area. That would be inconsistent with both possible versions of the events: a) Tyrion realized that it was a rape but did not care because (he thought) Tysha was a prostitute

b )Tyrion not realizing that it was a rape because (he thought) Tysha was a prostitute.

In both possible versions he believes Tysha to be a prostitute. Also both possible versions give him more than enough reason (along with other things) to be really pissed at Tywin.

[UVA]

in westeros no there is not sexism in westeros - the concept wouldn't even make sense to the characters that "exist" there. [snip]. Rember this takes place in a fantasy world.

Yes, but the question at hand, as I read it, is not whether Tyrion is considered sexist by other characters but by us. And in that way, it's reasonable to apply our modern sensibilities and moral concepts to the issue. In fact, I think we're invited to do so by the author. It's a contemporary series, with largely contemporary sensibilities set in a quasi-medieval world. Moral relativism (ie., well that's what they did in Westeros so it's ok) is not extremely useful in terms of getting a richer analysis of the text. Certainly the acknowledgement of in-universe morality creates sympathy for a character but it does not clarify their themes, the all-important arc. By qualifying everything with what we understand to be in-universe ethics, it's very difficult to judge any act.

Based on what I've read in the current Sansa thread I realize you've been referenced with a few older threads, so bear with me if I suggest one more on discussing morality in ASOIAF. You might enjoy it.

[Minsc]

I don't see how a 13 yo, virgin himself would realize whether his sexual partner was actually a virgin, or would even know how things work in that area.

Tyrion himself says that she was a virgin when he took her in how he believes that was part of the fantasy that Jaime bought him.

[Kolantero]

Tyrion himself says that she was a virgin when he took her in how he believes that was part of the fantasy that Jaime bought him.

Do you remember the book/chapter where he said that?

It seems weird because it's obvious in any case that Tyrion believed that she was a prostitute so I guess it is irrelevant anyway.

[Winter's Knight]

He believed Tysha was a virgin:

“First he made my brother tell me the truth. The girl was a whore, you see. Jaime arranged the whole affair, the road, the outlaws, all of it. He thought it was time I had a woman. He paid double for a maiden, knowing it would be my first time.

He also knew that Tysha was bleeding after her trauma:

“Lady Tysha.” His mouth twisted. “Of House Silverfist. Their arms have one gold coin and a hundred silver, upon a bloody sheet."

[Lord Reaver]

It seems weird because it's obvious in any case that Tyrion believed that she was a prostitute so I guess it is irrelevant anyway.

What the idea of someone purchasing a virgin is foreign to you ? It happens all the time in our world, today...

[Gannicus]

People seem to be confusing sexism with something else. Tyrion doesn't seem to discriminate against women or even promote stereotypical gender roles like many of the characters do.

Given his upbringing I'm surprised he's not more sexist truth be told.

Tyrion also focuses only on himself and his suffering regarding the Tysha incident, up until he hears that Tysha wasn't in fact a whore at all! Then he gets really upset and smacks Jaime.

See I don't know that he realizes it was rape. What probably happened was Tywin lead him into a scene where his men were already going at her and she was likely already in a state of shock.

From Tyrion's perspective he walks in to see Tysha getting ravaged but has silver coins all around her. Why wouldn't he believe his brother and father that she was just in it for the money? Because she was a virgin? If she was willing to sell her virginity away to a dwarf what wouldn't she be willing to do for a buck?

What about slapping Shae, strangling Shae, raping prostitutes in Essos? Threatening to rape his own sister?

He also slaps the king, kills a number of men, and threatens to rape Tommen. That violent behavior is hardly directed exclusively at women. In that regard Tyrion does not discriminate.

Like, the sister who will give lordship to the person who delivers her Tyrion's head and the Shae who betrayed him and went to bed with his father?

Besides, only because Ned Stark and Jon Snow have icicles where others have testicles, doesn't mean that's the Westerosi standard. Ned Stark and Jon Snow are great exceptions when it comes to their attitude towards women and sex compared to the rest of Westeros and Essos. So all we can do is proclaim Ned and Jon The Blessed and prosecute the rest of ASOIAF for being a sexist and a rapist.

I never agreed with people who say Sansa owes a pity blow job to Tyrion for not making her sleep with him, but Sansa is very lucky that Tyrion is intelligent enough to respect her young age. They were legally married and Sansa had flowered and thus it would be every right of Tyrion's by Westerosi standards to want his wife to live marital life with him. He should not get a medal for not get any medal for not making Sansa sleep with him, but about 90% of the characters would have done so. Tyrion knew this, Sansa knew this, everybody knew this. So what Tyrion did was exceptional and should be regarded as a positive deed in comparison with Westerosi standards.

That's it. Feel free to murder me. :blushing:

Strong post

In this thread a lot of people have a problem of not knowing what sexism is and not understanding that hate or violence do not need to come from being sexist.

If he was homosexual and treated male prostitutes/sex slaves violently would you say he is sexist towards men?

Did he ever make a general statement that women are lesser beings, not capable or intelligent?

Did he say Penny better not arm herself because she is a woman?

Did he ever object to a woman holding a certain position simply because she is a woman?

Agree 100%

[Minsc]

See I don't know that he realizes it was rape. What probably happened was Tywin lead him into a scene where his men were already going at her and she was likely already in a state of shock.

From Tyrion's perspective he walks in to see Tysha getting ravaged but has silver coins all around her. Why wouldn't he believe his brother and father that she was just in it for the money? Because she was a virgin? If she was willing to sell her virginity away to a dwarf what wouldn't she be willing to do for a buck?

Tyrion would have to be a complete idiot not to realize that what was going was a gang rape, and if Tyrion is anything it is that isn't an idiot.

[Roose The Weddingcrasher]

So.... this thread is a parody on "Is the QoT sexist?" , right? How can there even be a discussion.

[Gannicus]

Tyrion would have to be a complete idiot not to realize that what was going was a gang rape, and if Tyrion is anything it is that isn't an idiot.

I don't know. There probably insn't a lot of educational programs teaching young boys about rape awareness. Tyrion was a young boy and that was his first sexual experience.

According to his father and brother she was getting paid. Why would they lie? All he had to go on was the money she seemed to be making.

[The Marquis de Leech]

Tyrion's attitude towards women is perhaps the most disturbing aspect of his character. He regards the Lollys rape with disdain, keeps Shae around when he knows it might get her hanged (and all because he wants a girlfriend), and the less said about his activities in Essos, the better.

[Kolantero]

Tyrion would have to be a complete idiot not to realize that what was going was a gang rape, and if Tyrion is anything it is that isn't an idiot.

You said that before but it is perfectly reasonable for a 13 yo inexperienced boy to have that scene confused, especially if Tysha was to afraid to struggle while surrounded with silver/gold and since, like Gannicus said, Jaime (the brother he loved and trusted) and Tywin told him so.

I mean come on, I have memories from when I was 13 who get distorted as time passes and I remember things happening differently or things I confused at that age... and none of it was the traumatic kind like Tyrion's so the argument "he would have realized what happened when he grew up" seems weak to me.

[Elaena Targaryen]

He believed Tysha was a virgin:

He also knew that Tysha was bleeding after her trauma:

There is also this one

He remembered the first time with Tysha as well. She did not know how, no more than I did. We kept bumping our noses, but when I touched her tongue with mine she trembled.

And since it is questioned if Tyrion knew it was rape at the time I'll through in the quote from when he describes it

"After Jaime had made his confession, to drive home the lesson, Lord Tywin brought my wife in and gave her to his guards. They paid her fair enough. A silver for each man, how many whores command that high a price? He sat me down in the corner of the barracks and bade me watch, and at the end she had so many silvers the coins were slipping through her fingers and rolling on the floor, she . . ." The smoke was stinging his eyes. Tyrion cleared his throat and turned away from the fire, to gaze out into darkness. "Lord Tywin had me go last," he said in a quiet voice. "And he gave me a gold coin to pay her, because I was a Lannister, and worth more."

I feel the former quote shows that he did know it was rape

and when you combine the bloody sheet comment “Lady Tysha.” His mouth twisted. “Of House Silverfist. Their arms have one gold coin and a hundred silver, upon a bloody sheet." - with this - "she . . ." The smoke was stinging his eyes' I don't think he was going to say that she... enjoyed it, especially with all the blood and he cries thinking about her condition.

and this part 'and bade me watch, and at the end she had so many silvers the coins were slipping through her fingers and rolling on the floor, she . . ." The smoke was stinging his eyes. Tyrion cleared his throat and turned away from the fire, to gaze out into darkness' Tyrion starts crying, right when he gets to the part where he is about to describe Tysha's state, because it was a traumatizing experience for both of them. Not because she was happy and counting the money.

I feel Tyrion is a victim here too, though not even close to the same level, he was still a thirteen year old boy that was forced to watch the bloody gang rape of someone he thought he loved, then was made to participate in that rape and remember this was all 'to drive the lesson home' that nobody would love him.

But I suppose that was the whole point of Tysha, and the incident, as a literary device to benefit Tyrion's story arc. So saying that he may not have realized it was rape takes away the benefit that it gives to his character.

[Blueberry Stark]

Tyrion is a product of his society so I'm sure he has some sexist notions like most of the characters in the series - both male and female. However, I don't think that he's so much sexist as he is misanthropic and elitist. Because he's been mistreated his entire life for his looks he doesn't seem to care for people in general. He uses his snide sense of humor to armor himself against possible attacks from others. What I find disturbing about Tyrion's treatment of women is more of a class issue. He treats noble women well enough, but his mistreatment of prostitutes is another story.

[Four-Eyed Crow]

So.... this thread is a parody on "Is the QoT sexist?" , right? How can there even be a discussion.

It isn't a parody. The QoT thread got me thinking of a character who could provide more material and emotional capital for a sexism discussion.

[Lyanna Stark]

in westeros no there is not sexism in westeros - the concept wouldn't even make sense to the characters that "exist" there - it would be an anachronism. According to modern perception yes and I mean modern - like 1980 +. I am a law currently a Law school student and you probably didn't know this but marital rape was legal in the U.S. until the 70's. That's the 1970s not the 1870's. So a husband could legally rape his wife in all 50 states in 1970. So when we project our morality on a fantasy series we must remember we are far from perfect and we have miles to go to achieve gender equality in the U.S. let alone holding westeros up to our standards of morality and gender relations.

Good grief.

Just because something is legal does not make it morally right.

Were slavery morally right when it was legal? Was denying women an non-whites the right to vote morally right at the time? The same goes for marital rape and many other things Mr Law student.

If you want to argue that something that was once legal must have been morally right, I suggest you go to Gen Chat and debate it there where it belongs. I am sure you'll find lots of interested parties who'd want to participate.

[Lyanna Stark]

See I don't know that he realizes it was rape. What probably happened was Tywin lead him into a scene where his men were already going at her and she was likely already in a state of shock.

Nope. Text says:

"After Jaime had made his confession, to drive home the lesson, Lord Tywin brought my wife in and gave her to his guards. They paid her fair enough. A silver for each man, how many whores command that high a price? He sat me down in the corner of the barracks and bade me watch, and at the end she had so many silvers the coins were slipping through her fingers and rolling on the floor, she . . ." The smoke was stinging his eyes. Tyrion cleared his throat and turned away from the fire, to gaze out into darkness. "Lord Tywin had me go last," he said in a quiet voice. "And he gave me a gold coin to pay her, because I was a Lannister, and worth more."

From Tyrion's perspective he walks in to see Tysha getting ravaged but has silver coins all around her. Why wouldn't he believe his brother and father that she was just in it for the money? Because she was a virgin? If she was willing to sell her virginity away to a dwarf what wouldn't she be willing to do for a buck?

Do you know what happens, physically, to women who get gang raped? Tyrion already stated that Tysha was bleeding? To think that a 14 year old girl would "willingly" sell herself to a barrack full of guards since she'd fancy the money is absurd. It even states explicitly in the text that Tywin "gave" her to his guards. She had no say in it.

14 year old girl. Gang raped. Bleeding. Think on that for a minute. What sort of mental imagery does this scenario conjure in your mind? How does it look to your inner eye? If you imagine yourself or someone you know in Tysha's place, what would it feel like?

You honestly believe this was willing and/or that Tywion was too dumb to figure out it wasn't a voluntary scenario?

He also slaps the king, kills a number of men, and threatens to rape Tommen. That violent behavior is hardly directed exclusively at women. In that regard Tyrion does not discriminate.

'

Very true, he sure likes to disperse a lot of threats and violence around, but he feels really bad for saying what he does about Tommen. No such feelings about his threats regarding Cersei though.

[Minsc]

Very true, he sure likes to disperse a lot of threats and violence around, but he feels really bad for saying what he does about Tommen. No such feelings about his threats regarding Cersei though.

While it obviously doesn't justify him desiring to rape her however it should be noted that Tommen and Cersei are widely two different people. In how Tommen is one of the epitomes of innocence within the story, while Cersei is one of the most vile people in the story especially towards Tyrion. Thus, it would only make sense that he feel different emotions when threatening to two.

[Winter's Knight]

That was the trouble with the clans; they had an absurd notion that every man’s voice should be heard in council, so they argued about everything, endlessly. Even their women were allowed to speak.

...

How could a whore look so clean and sweet and innocent, he wondered?

...

. She might be maiden between the legs, but she was hardly innocent of betrayal; she had once spilled her own father’s plans to Cersei.

Tyrion shows a defined virgin/whore complex.

[Blueberry Stark]

Tyrion shows a defined virgin/whore complex.

I agree. A "virgin" is treated one way by Tyrion whereas a "whore" may be treated another way. His mistreatment of prostitutes/sex slaves in ADWD is deplorable. The reason he doesn't insist on Sansa consummating their marriage is because he respects her as a noblewoman and a maiden.