Moqorro's agenda: Good or Evil

[Lady Fevre Dream]

I guess the better question is, "What do they expect her to do?" If they think she's Azor Ahai and Azor Ahai is meant to do XYZ and she says, "No, I want to do ABC," will they allow her to do that or will they make her mind up for her? If you think about it, Azor Ahai really is the "slave to R'hollor" — "show me your instrument" — and if these priests think Azor Ahai exists only to carry out some sort of plot or whatever, any deviation from that is probably not going to fly. Hence, them "helping Dany" might not actually mean "helping Dany."

I do agree, and maybe the best way to say it, is the Red Priests are interested in Dany as they think she's Azor Ahai and I think if Dany's plans should not line up with their's, it will be more likely them trying to 'help' themselves to Dany, regardless of her wishes. I'm sure they will even think that if Dany's plans don't line up with what they see the prophecy to mean......they think forcing Dany's hand is the right thing to do.

Now, whether Moqorro's agenda really and totally lines up with The Red Priests, I think, is still unclear.

It all does point to the problems with belief in absolutes with religious fervor, though, as all the human sacrifice does. IMO

[LordStoneheart]

Counterpoints to what? Of the competing explanations for the mystical phenomena we see, only one (that of actual gods/demons) has textual support, and the other does not. How can I offer counterpoints to blank speculation that the only hypothesis supported by the text is wrong?

A counterpoint that there's any proof at all the gods exist in the way the characters describe them, actual omnipotent entities. Something with basis. You can't just write me off as an 'atheist' and ignore the many reasons I've said the gods in this series probably don't exist.

[Alhazred]

A counterpoint that there's any proof at all the gods exist in the way the characters describe them, actual omnipotent entities.

Nobody ever describes them as "omnipotent". Why the attempt to create a false dichotomy between "omnipotent" entities and entirely non-existent ones?

Something with basis. You can't just write me off as an 'atheist' and ignore the many reasons I've said the gods in this series probably don't exist.

Well, maybe I can't "write you off as an atheist" (the mods don't like it) but I can sure write you off. You have not actually presented any reasons. Merely boasted of your non-existent reasons. As for your motives for doing so, I suppose I must cease to speculate.

Where is the textual evidence that these entities are really an impersonal force that seems to mimic the behavior of an entity? This, it would seem to me, would require the functional equivalent of some sort of artificial intelligence. Similarly, where is the evidence that Stannis Baratheon is really a robot programmed by aliens? Sure, I cannot disprove either of these theories, but they sure as hell don't find any support in the book.

[LordStoneheart]

Nobody ever describes them as "omnipotent". Why the attempt to create a false dichotomy between "omnipotent" entities and entirely non-existent ones?

Yes they do. Many times. The Seven are at many described as being, well actual beings that stepped down on the hills of Andalos and brought about the Faith. They're supposed to intervene with trials, especially trial by combat, and are prayed to as if they can have direct influence in events, aka omnipotence. The followers of R'hllor are the same way. They believe he really is a deity as the Great Other, which is why Mel thinks Bran and Bloodraven are it. The Drowned God is not only still alive in the sea, he's also a creation deity who created the Ironborn! As I've also said, the Old Gods may have just been greenseers, but most worshipers in the north don't know that. They only know of Old Gods of nature they pray to. You completely ignored my post giving evidence as to why these gods probably don't exist, so I'll post it again

Asshai looks like a volcanic place, therefore, fire god. He needs a nemesis that is bad so he can have followers, hence, great other.

Ironborn are on islands, therefore, drowned god. They often die at sea due to turbulent waves caused by storms, hence the enemy storm god. Already explained greenseers.

We haven't really seen why the Andals have the seven gods, but we haven't seen the Faith do much magic tricks either so that could be irrelevant. Dothraki are good with horses? Horse god.

Rhoynar lived on a river, so they have a river goddess. In this river exist a species of giant turtle. Mammoths and direwolves and giants exist in this world naturally so there's no reason to think the old man of the river isn't just a type of turtle.

All these are logical reasons why these gods could have developed in their native lands, and has nothing to do with my personal beliefs like you attacked earlier. That is all I have to say about this, and all I have to say to you.

Though I might add that the story of how the Faith of the Seven began is reminiscent of how Joseph Smith founded Mormonism.

[Alhazred]

Yes they do. Many times. The Seven are at many described as being, well actual beings that stepped down on the hills of Andalos and brought about the Faith. They're supposed to intervene with trials, especially trial by combat, and are prayed to as if they can have direct influence in events, aka omnipotence.

???

You are confusing potent with omnipotent.

It is possible that the Faith teaches that the Seven were omnipotent (by analogy to Christianity). Though I don't know where this says this.

But where are we going with this? If Christianity teaches that God is ominipotent, how would it disprove the existence of the Genie from Aladdin?

[Daemul]

I would have thought that by now people would have stopped using the words good and evil when it came to describing characters and their motives in ASOIAF.

[LordStoneheart]

???

You are confusing potent with ominpotent.

It is possible that the Faith teaches that the Seven were omnipotent (by analogy to Christianity). Though I don't know where this says this.

No I am not. Omnipotent definition: (of a deity) having unlimited power; able to do anything. Such as intervening in Trials based on innocence, and answer prayers for all different walks of life. Their very creation story and talk among the characters themselves show they're supposed to be omnipotent beings.

Versus potent: having great power, influence, or effect.

I supposed you can say the Seven are potent by the above definition, but they also are omnipotent in the eyes of their followers.

But where are we going with this? If Christianity teaches that God is ominipotent, how would it disprove the existence of the Genie from Aladdin?

Now you're just being ridiculous.

[Alhazred]

No I am not. Omnipotent definition: (of a deity) having unlimited power; able to do anything. Such as intervening in Trials based on innocence, and answer prayers for all different walks of life. Their very creation story and talk among the characters themselves show they're supposed to be omnipotent beings.

You're confused. "Omnipotent" does not mean "able to do really really awsome things". Omnipotent means no limits to ones power at all.

Dualistic religions, for instance, (like Manichaean Christianity) do not preach omnipotence. Rh'llor is a dualistic religion. It preaches that Rh'llor's power is limited by an equal and opposite force ... the Great Other.

I still don't see how these quibbles about whether these "gods" or "demons" are "omnipotent" or not prove they do not exist as entities at all. And I though the latter was your position.

[LordStoneheart]

I still don't see how these quibbles about whether these "gods" or "demons" are "omnipotent" or not prove they do not exist as entities at all. And I though the latter was your position.

I'm saying that though many in the world of asoiaf think their gods are the only true gods and are omnipotent, this is not the case. The topic of omnipotence was only in relation to the people's beliefs. I've already said with good reasoning many times why I believe there are no "omnipotent" gods or even just potent gods. Just phenomena that people interpret as gods. I've said all I want to about that so we're just going to have to agree to disagree. And just for good measure, the above comment and all other comments before don't reflect on my personal religious beliefs since it is a fictional story we're talking about.

[Bael's Bastard]

Most people in ASOIAF seem to favor one group of gods over another, but how many claim their gods are the only true gods? The only ones that come to mind are the believers in R'holler and his opponent-deity.

[The Sunset King]

The plot seems to be heading in the direction in which the red priests of the Free Cities will fully align themselves with Daenerys. This factor reduces the chances that they will experience a wholesale disillusionment with her level of adherence to their expectations for Azor Ahai.

It is frequent that individuals purported to be messiahs gain the ability to set and decide doctrines and courses of action. This often creates a split between supporters of the putative messiah and groups that reject the new movement as being too heterodox (often clerical institutions do this). The perceived messiah, if successful, frequently ends up creating a new amalgamation with striking differences from the original sect (or maintains the sect while recasting its teachings).

Another factor is charismatic authority. In Daenerys's case, the anti-slavery crusade will create such a frenzy and expectations of hope that her degree of conforming rigidly to preexisting plans will not dash the support of the red priests for her. Probably after her looming conflict in the Dothraki Sea, the same will mostly happen with the Khals.

Benerro, Moqorro, and the like, barring glamors or some yet unrevealed hidden agenda, are too invested in supporting Daenerys as Azor Ahai to let differences of opinion on some matters derail the alliance. They likely will accept being a component, albeit, a significant one, in her coalition. Given that they have portrayed her as R'hllor's chief earthly instrument for inaugurating a new golden age, they are bound to accept her decisions within broad parameters. If they are convinced she is the geniune embodiment of Azor Ahai, her overall mission cannot be heretical, even if not all of her views perfectly align with the present ideas.

The collective view of Daenerys's coalition will lean more toward a political objective than a religious one, though both will exist simultaneously.