Moqorro's agenda: Good or Evil

[Ser Pounce FTW]

[sigh] Another post-modern who does not think that human sacrifice, and burning innocent people alive, is "bad".

I do believe burning innocent people is bad as is human sacrifice. But I don't think that these things are the only things that we should use to judge Melisandre and Moqorro with. I do not excuse these acts nor want them to be done but I think there is more to this given the religious context it's put in.

[Alhazred]

I do believe burning innocent people is bad as is human sacrifice. But I don't think that these things are the only things that we should use to judge Melisandre and Moqorro with. I do not excuse these acts nor want them to be done but I think there is more to this given the religious context it's put in.

Everyone has a philosophy or a religion. What's your point?

I'm not trying to judge the souls of any real people. I'm just trying to figure out who the bad guys are in a story. And Mozorro really is not hard.

[Alhazred]

There is no proof of this at all.

Only that he's re-using an idea he already tried out in THE ARMAGEDDON RAG. And he might as well, because nobody read that one.

[LordStoneheart]

Only that he's re-using an idea he already tried out in THE ARMAGEDDON RAG. And he might as well, because nobody read that one.

There was an ice dragon in his story The Ice Dragon, but most on here cringe at the mention of the Winterfell dragon or ice dragons beyond the wall. There was also a theme of mold being a god in A Song for Lya, but sadly there's no Greeshka-like mold in asoiaf. None of those separate stories can really tell us about this other story. I know GRRM re-uses different themes in his writing, but going only by the novels there's no reason to think that R'hllor and the Great Other are the same, or even exist at all.

[Alhazred]

[...] but most on here cringe at the mention of the Winterfell dragon [...]

It's nothing to me what you cringe at. One way or another, alot of people are going to be disappointed.

Of course, alot of people are, or have been, disappointed already, due to GRRM's ultraslow progress through the story. GRRM seems to be stuck in middle book, which may or may not be where he wants to be (probably not, if he is really stuck at the mid-point of a much larger story arc). If, by some chance, he is NOT where he wants to be, then It is possible that the fans who are currently the most satisfied are the fans who will ultimately be the most disappointed.

no reason to think that R'hllor and the Great Other are the same

But certainly, there is every reason to suppose that GRRM's regards their philosophies as destructive. Surely, GRRM's views cannot have changed that much.

But, ironically, they're being the same is the one possibility no-one suspects ... even though he has done it before.

[LordStoneheart]

I'd be more on board with this theory if there was actual evidence for the existence of the various gods/deities of the world, but I've seen none.

[Alhazred]

I'd be more on board with this theory if there was actual evidence for the existence of the various gods/deities of the world, but I've seen none.

This, surely, is merely a projection of your philosophy. I'm sure if you read THE ARMAGEDDON RAG, you would be equally unconvinced of the existence of the mystical entities there as well. You would say that the protagonist merely had a few trippy experiences, which is certainly understandable given the whole 60s theme.

The idea I mentioned (and the anti-dualistic attitude behind it) was nonethess expressed. Whether it was meant to be symbolic, or literally represent "actual" deities (and why this should matter when we all know it's fiction anyway), is neither here nor there.

[LordStoneheart]

This, surely, is merely a projection of your philosophy. I'm sure if you read THE ARMAGEDDON RAG, you would be equally unconvinced of the existence of the mystical entities there as well. You would say that the protagonist merely had a few trippy experiences, which is certainly understandable given the whole 60s theme.

The idea I mentioned (and the anti-dualistic attitude behind it) was nonethess expressed. Whether it was meant to be symbolic, or literally represent "actual" deities (and why this should matter when we all know it's fiction anyway), is neither here nor there.

No its not. Its from the books. We've seen no actual old gods, new gods, drowned gods, storm gods, rhllor, giant goat, big stallion, or anything. What we've seen is small amounts of magic from all over the world, each being attributed to a different god, but its the other way around. The magic doesn't come from the gods. Rather, magic/mystical happenings exist and their interaction with cultures gives way to the belief in gods, usually themed because of the region they're in.

[The Mother of The Others]

Good Evil Ambitious.

[Alhazred]

No its not. Its from the books. We've seen no actual old gods, new gods, drowned gods, storm gods, rhllor, giant goat, big stallion, or anything.

Do you think THE ARMAGEDDON RAG was any different?

Yes, I know. You are an atheist. You feel very strongly about it. Stop trying to shove it down my throat. This is a fantasy novel.

We've never "seen" the Iron Bank either. Prove to me that that exists! Then we can discuss the gods.

I just finished reading TINKER TAILOR SOLDIER SPY. It just occurred to me that we never actually "see" Karla. Of course, to be technical, I never actually "see" anyone when I read a book. Its all words on a page. And the ideas are as important as the images.

[Lost Melnibonean]

Was the fat red priest at Drogo's manse in Pentos Moqorro? Is Illyrio a follower/patron or enemy of the red religion?

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

"Evil" might be too strong a word but I'm pretty wary of him and what his goal is. I think it's important to point out that "wanting to help Dany" doesn't necessarily mean "good," considering:

1. Help her do what?

2. What if she resists the help — does she have a choice?

3. If Dany isn't actually good and he helps her, why would that make him good?

I think it's pretty clear that he's playing Victarion, and equally clear that he has not insubstantial talents and a gift for correctly interpreting visions (so far) that seems to escape Melisandre. But there's something extremely unsettling about him.

I'm also curious as to how the red priests settled on Dany as their Azor Ahai. Did they actually see her in their fires, or did they hear about her dragons and figure that as such it must be her? Kind of a distinction there.

[Arya kiddin']

Dudes, the setup is simple. The Red God and the Great Other are one and the same. They are a single diabolic entity - with the same goal -- the destuction of humanity, by pitting them against each other.

That escalated rather quickly!!!

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

No its not. Its from the books. We've seen no actual old gods, new gods, drowned gods, storm gods, rhllor, giant goat, big stallion, or anything. What we've seen is small amounts of magic from all over the world, each being attributed to a different god, but its the other way around. The magic doesn't come from the gods. Rather, magic/mystical happenings exist and their interaction with cultures gives way to the belief in gods, usually themed because of the region they're in.

This isn't strictly true. The old gods are really just the greenseers in the trees, aren't they. So not "gods" in the way that we understand them (if it's possible to understand them ...), but they do "exist" and we have "seen" them.

[Aerys Ahai Reborn]

No its not. Its from the books. We've seen no actual old gods, new gods, drowned gods, storm gods, rhllor, giant goat, big stallion, or anything. What we've seen is small amounts of magic from all over the world, each being attributed to a different god, but its the other way around. The magic doesn't come from the gods. Rather, magic/mystical happenings exist and their interaction with cultures gives way to the belief in gods, usually themed because of the region they're in.

Varys tells the story of how he got cut and the voice from the blue flame.

Oh, and we saw the Old Man of the River (giant turtle).

[ejhawman]

He's just using Vic to get to Dany, and perhaps as help in controlling the dragons. He's true to his god and his mission. And I wouldn't call the choices "good" or "evil"; there are simply different sides contending.

[ejhawman]

"Evil" might be too strong a word but I'm pretty wary of him and what his goal is. I think it's important to point out that "wanting to help Dany" doesn't necessarily mean "good," considering:

1. Help her do what?

2. What if she resists the help — does she have a choice?

3. If Dany isn't actually good and he helps her, why would that make him good?

I think it's pretty clear that he's playing Victarion, and equally clear that he has not insubstantial talents and a gift for correctly interpreting visions (so far) that seems to escape Melisandre. But there's something extremely unsettling about him.

I'm also curious as to how the red priests settled on Dany as their Azor Ahai. Did they actually see her in their fires, or did they hear about her dragons and figure that as such it must be her? Kind of a distinction there.

I would think the cult of R'hllor, first and foremost, wants to rule Volantis, and will want her help with that.

Beyond that, they may be willing to help her, in turn, with taking Westeros. I wouldn't think their agenda is perfectly in line with hers, but she has much growing up to do, and if she wises up enough to see the folly in ruling Westeros, and abandons it, she may come back to them, either in Volantis or Asshai.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

I would think the cult of R'hllor, first and foremost, wants to rule Volantis, and will want her help with that.

Beyond that, they may be willing to help her, in turn, with taking Westeros. I wouldn't think their agenda is perfectly in line with hers, but she has much growing up to do, and if she wises up enough to see the folly in ruling Westeros, and abandons it, she may come back to them, either in Volantis or Asshai.

I guess the better question is, "What do they expect her to do?" If they think she's Azor Ahai and Azor Ahai is meant to do XYZ and she says, "No, I want to do ABC," will they allow her to do that or will they make her mind up for her? If you think about it, Azor Ahai really is the "slave to R'hollor" — "show me your instrument" — and if these priests think Azor Ahai exists only to carry out some sort of plot or whatever, any deviation from that is probably not going to fly. Hence, them "helping Dany" might not actually mean "helping Dany."

[LordStoneheart]

Do you think THE ARMAGEDDON RAG was any different?

that book does not equal these books and you're an idiot to think so. that's like saying the show and the books are one in the same.

Yes, I know. You are an atheist. You feel very strongly about it. Stop trying to shove it down my throat. This is a fantasy novel.

We've never "seen" the Iron Bank either. Prove to me that that exists! Then we can discuss the gods.

I just finished reading TINKER TAILOR SOLDIER SPY. It just occurred to me that we never actually "see" Karla. Of course, to be technical, I never actually "see" anyone when I read a book. Its all words on a page. And the ideas are as important as the images.

Again, you're an idiot. You know nothing of my religious ideology and what I said isn't representative of it. You're just mad I'm disagreeing with you, and that's not the first time I've seen you do that. (We've also seen Tycho Nestoris, a rep of the Iron Bank, so you're wrong there too) I'm not saying seeing is proof. I'm saying there's no personal manifestations, only some vein of power that human culture has tapped into at various points, such as

This isn't strictly true. The old gods are really just the greenseers in the trees, aren't they. So not "gods" in the way that we understand them (if it's possible to understand them ...), but they do "exist" and we have "seen" them.

This. If we take Apple's statement true, we see that the 'old gods' are misunderstood. I'm sure Ned wasn't praying to Greenseers specifically since that's a forgotten concept mostly. So here's an instance of magic being attributed to a higher power than what is shown.

Varys tells the story of how he got cut and the voice from the blue flame.

Oh, and we saw the Old Man of the River (giant turtle).

If we take Varys' story as complete truth (which may not be wise) then there is room for another explanation. A ventriloquist maybe. And sometimes a giant turtle is just a giant turtle. No one is claiming Dany's dragons are gods (yet).

[Alhazred]

that book does not equal these books and you're an [...] to think so.

I never said this book equaled that book.

We've also seen Tycho Nestoris, a rep of the Iron Bank

We've seen far more reps of the Red God.