Were we supposed to blame Sansa for Lady?

[mindchap]

I always had a problem with the brutal way Sandor chose to kill Mycah with. I think that's why I can't like him.

I think I had it worse than most because all I remembered was the line where Jeyne tells Arya that he cut him to pieces and I thought all this time that that was how it happened. It wasn't until just recently that someone(Nictarion I think) pointed out that was just to mess with Arya, I had forgotten the line where Ned says that the boy was nearly cut in half. I know that's still bad but not cutting him into pieces kind of bad.

[WeirwoodTreeHugger]

I think I had it worse than most because all I remembered was the line where Jeyne tells Arya that he cut him to pieces and I thought all this time that that was how it happened. It wasn't until just recently that someone(Nictarion I think) pointed out that was just to mess with Arya, I had forgotten the line where Ned says that the boy was nearly cut in half. I know that's still bad but not cutting him into pieces kind of bad.

Yup. Sandor gets a pass because he's a "badass", but Sansa acted like a bratty adolescent girl sometimes so she must suffer for eternity.

[Bippy]

She is haunted by Marillion's singing while he's in the sky cells and terrified to meet with the Lords Declarant and tell Littlefinger's lies. I interpreted that as partially due to guilt.

Thanks for this. There's also the moment when Tyrion's seeking love or something from her, and her memories of Joffrey choking. It just worries me somehow that it's never made overt in her PoV, and we've got to work with,the interpretation. It's like GRRM's leaving himself an out somehow.

[mindchap]

Yup. Sandor gets a pass because he's a "badass", but Sansa acted like a bratty adolescent girl sometimes so she must suffer for eternity.

That's not what I was saying, I was simply pointing out an earlier error on my part. I, in no way blame Sansa or any of the rest of the kids for the actions taken around Lady's demise or Mycah's.

[IRON BANK]

I feel that if Sansa would have toldthe truth, The repercussions would have been more harsh. However it would have exposed who Joffrey and the queen truly were, not only to Sansa herself but to other family members and court officials in attendance.

[HannibalStark]

A few threads have turned into debates about this topic so I thought I'd make a thread dedicated to it so we can fight freely.

On rereads, my take on the whole incident is that it was not supposed to make us think Sansa was disloyal or a bad person. It was a warning about Robert's incompetence as a king.

First of all, if it was intended to cause readers to view Sansa negatively, it would have been told in an Arya POV. She is the member of the Stark that does not get along with Sansa.

Instead, we are shown the "trial" and death of Lady through Ned's eyes. What this incident does is establish a pattern of behavior in Robert. Robert does not like ruling. He has no interest in making difficult decisions or listen to people's problems. He leaves these things to his council and Cersei, at his own peril.

Robert frequently stands by and allows unjust things to happen. He has the power to change them but doesn't want to. Mycah and Lady are not the only victims of his indifference. He also allows Tywin to have Elia, Rhaenys and Aegon to be killed in an extremely brutal fashion. He does not punish or reprimand Tywin or Gregor and Amory Lorch for the horrific way they were murdered. Robert also allows his council to plan the murder of Daenerys. When Ned explains the immorality of this, Robert brushes him off. Robert also allows Littlefinger to bankrupt the crown because "counting coppers" is of no interest to him.

Back to the topic of Lady. Here are the quotes that support my hypothesis.

Clearly Robert is annoyed that he has to take care of this matter. This is befor the proceedings have even begun.

Robert does not take the initiative to make sure that Ned (who must been frantic with worry) that Arya was all right. Then he allows Cersei to answer for him. Again, we can see that he just doesn't care that much.

Once again, Robert is massively irritated at having to do his job (parenting or kinging take your pick).

The two bolded words say it all. Robert did not stop to think about how unjust and cruel punishing Lady and Sansa was. He just wanted it over with. He wanted to get Cersei off his back. It is only after the Starks cause an uproar that Robert comes up with the excuse that being a direwolf, Lady would probably become violent anyway.

Sansa is in anguish and as a result, so is a Ned. Ned even brings up Lyanna, the girl Robert is supposed to be so in love with. Nothing moves him. Robert is supposed to be Ned's closest friend and he still can't be bothered to stand up to Cersei.

As loud and gregarious as Robert is, silence might be the word to describe Robert's time as king. He has all the power, but he doesn't care to exercise it when he can speak up and stop an injustice.

The debate always rages on about Sansa's behavior and Sansa's character, but I think this chapter is really an indictment of Robert.

hell ya I blame Sansa for Lady's death...she turned against her family/pack-not only that, she out and out lied about what happened to her King and Father. She also has a part to play in the death of her father as well, because she betrayed him and told the Queen about what her father was doing.

Did she swing the sword? Obviously not, but had she NOT gone to the queen I have a feeling the transfer of power would have gone a little differently when Robert died.

Was she the direct cause of either death? No...but shit she did or didn't do had a direct impact.

[WeirwoodTreeHugger]

That's not what I was saying, I was simply pointing out an earlier error on my part. I, in no way blame Sansa or any of the rest of the kids for the actions taken around Lady's demise or Mycah's.

Sorry. I wasn't trying to say that you thought that. I was just sort of expanding on our post.

[mindchap]

Sorry. I wasn't trying to say that you thought that. I was just sort of expanding on our post.

No Prob :)

[Minsc]

Did she swing the sword? Obviously not, but had she NOT gone to the queen I have a feeling the transfer of power would have gone a little differently when Robert died.

Why would Cersei not act immediately following Robert's death knowing that Ned knew about the incest?

Also, she actually told Ned what really happened days before the trial. Only for some reason, Ned never brought this up until the trial.

[WeirwoodTreeHugger]

hell ya I blame Sansa for Lady's death...she turned against her family/pack-not only that, she out and out lied about what happened to her King and Father. She also has a part to play in the death of her father as well, because she betrayed him and told the Queen about what her father was doing.

Did she swing the sword? Obviously not, but had she NOT gone to the queen I have a feeling the transfer of power would have gone a little differently when Robert died.

Was she the direct cause of either death? No...but shit she did or didn't do had a direct impact.

The time Sansa spilled the beans is an issue for a different thread.

Can you provide convincing evidence that Cersei would not have ordered Lady dead if Sansa had told the truth? Do you really think she was ever going to take anybody's side over Joffrey. She wanted revenge for Joffrey's boo boo and Robert was the only one who had the power to stop her.

[Bippy]

Also, she actually told Ned what really happened days before the trial. Only for some reason, Ned never brought this up until the trial.

Yes, this was very strange. The whole thing could've been short-circuited at that point.

[Minsc]

Yes, this was very strange. The whole thing could've been short-circuited at that point.

Honestly, you think Ned would be demanding punishment for the kid who just forced his youngest daughter run away and hide in the woods.

[nirolo]

It's not that anybody expects that Robert should be thrilled to sort this mess put. Nobody would have a good time. I do however, expect that he would make a correct decision after listening to all sides. Robert knew Joffrey was full of crap. Ned, Sansa and Arya all begged Robert to spare Lady, but Robert didn't want to deal with Cersei's bitchiness, so he killed an innocent animal. That's the point.

Here is where we differ. I don't expect Robert to make a correct decision based on what little he had. Four people are involved that day: Mycah, Joffrey, Arya, and Sansa. One is dead, two are giving conflicting testimonies, and the fourth one had an amnesia. So, why should Robert rule against Joffrey when the existing evidence support either side? Again, there is just not enough to go on to let Robert render a correct decision.

Which bring me back to Lady...

To Robert, a direwolf is not a pet, but a dangerous animal that has the potential to do great harm. This is clearly demonstrated by what Nymeria did to Joffrey. If one direwolf has done harm, it is not a far stretch to assume that a similar one might be capable of doing so as well. So even if Lady is innocent in that she hasn't harmed anyone yet, it might only be a matter of time before she does hurt someone. For this reason, I think it is perfectly rational for Robert to get rid of the remaining wolf. Since for Robert, the direwolf is not a pet, but a savage beast.

So it's not like there is only one reason why Robert acquiesces to Cersei's demand.

[Minsc]

Here is where we differ. I don't expect Robert to make a correct decision based on what little he had. Four people are involved that day: Mycah, Joffrey, Arya, and Sansa. One is dead, two are giving conflicting testimonies, and the fourth one had an amnesia. So, why should Robert rule against Joffrey when the existing evidence support either side? Again, there is just not enough to go on to let Robert render a correct decision.

Because, he actually knows the truth that his "son" is lying.

[Bippy]

Honestly, you think Ned would be demanding punishment for the kid who just forced his youngest daughter run away and hide in the woods.

Maybe he was resting easy because he'd already taken out a hit on Joffrey. "Joffrey will never see his wedding night..." and then when it finally took effect no one knew what it was all about.

[mindchap]

Honestly, you think Ned would be demanding punishment for the kid who just forced his youngest daughter run away and hide in the woods.

Maybe Ned did bring it up before the trial we just don't see it. Bran sees his father pleading with the king, but we never see that from Ned's POV.

[IRON BANK]

Honestly, you think Ned would be demanding punishment for the kid who just forced his youngest daughter run away and hide in the woods.

Thats true and I also found it strange that more was not focused on the truth of the actual events considering this was an alliance the Baratheons needed badly. They travel all the way up north to gain this Stark - Baratheon alliance and start out not even trying to put their best toward a decent result.

[nirolo]

Because, he actually knows the truth that his "son" is lying.

Sure, he suspected it. But what good reason does he have to call Joffrey out on his lies?

[Minsc]

Maybe Ned did bring it up before the trial we just don't see it. Bran sees his father pleading with the king, but we never see that from Ned's POV.

Wasn't that vision when Robert ordered Lady's death as it mentions Sansa crying?

Sure, he suspected it. But what good reason does he have to call Joffrey out on his lies?

Because he knows it is truth and that would be justice, aka his job.

[Bippy]

Wasn't that vision when Robert ordered Lady's death as it mentions Sansa crying?

Because he knows it is truth and that would be justice, aka his job.

Well, at this point he'd saved Arya herself from the chop (sort of) and maybe he thought he'd done enough.