mindchap Posted September 5, 2013 Share Posted September 5, 2013 Wasn't that vision when Robert ordered Lady's death as it mentions Sansa crying?Because he knows it is truth and that would be justice, aka his job.True, now that I've gone back and looked, now that makes me wonder what the hell he was pleading for. :bang: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Minsc Posted September 5, 2013 Share Posted September 5, 2013 True, now that I've gone back and looked, now that makes me wonder what the hell he was pleading for. :bang:For Lady not to be killed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nirolo Posted September 5, 2013 Share Posted September 5, 2013 Because he knows it is truth and that would be justice, aka his job.He doesn't know it's the truth, which is why he asks all the relevant parties to give their version of the event, so he could determine exactly what happened. To you, the omnipresent reader, it might seem like justice to rule against Joffrey. To Robert, not so much. In fact, I believe it would be very UNreasonable for Robert to do that based on what he heard at the trial that day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Minsc Posted September 5, 2013 Share Posted September 5, 2013 He doesn't know it's the truth, which is why he asks all the relevant parties to give their version of the event, so he could determine exactly what happened. To you, the omnipresent reader, it might seem like justice to rule against Joffrey. To Robert, not so much. In fact, I believe it would be very UNreasonable for Robert to do that based on what he heard at the trial that day.Robert directly says that he knows that Joffrey was lying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1234567 Posted September 5, 2013 Share Posted September 5, 2013 Sansa didn't corroborate either story. She basically did a "I'm not getting involved" statement. In fact her testimony could have made matters worse as sadly Joff would not have been penalised for putting a sword to Mycah's face, but the fact that Arya hit him badly enough to make his head bleed and then hit him again, would not have been viewed well. This is not a merry Camelot type story, where the King is just and fair. In the Hedge Knight, Dunk nearly looses a hand and foot by protecting a girl that is have beaten by a Prince: it may have been frowned upon by others, but no ones lose challenged the Prince except Dunk and he was nearly maimed for doing so. Cersei would have stated that it was Joff's right to punish peasants as he sees fit. Arya hadn't been brought up that way. She had been brought up to value and defend people. Sadly Ned and Cat failed to ensure either of the girls had a clue as to how they had to alter their behaviour once they left Winterfell. They should have warned them how to behave around the Lannisters.Ned should have explained to Sansa that it was important to always tell the truth or interjected and asked Robert to clear the room as the girl was obviously scared. Arya attacking Sansa in the courtroom didn't help either. Ned as a grown man felt intimidated in the room and yet expected his 11 year old daughter not to be effected by it.After leaving Winterfell, Ned continuously let Arya get away with murder and should have realised that Sansa was becoming more disobedient and far too enchanted with Court life. He did have a small talk with Arya, but never had one with Sansa. Also the biggie: he should have sent his daughters to Riverrun or home before telling Cersei he knew about her and Jaime. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nirolo Posted September 5, 2013 Share Posted September 5, 2013 Robert directly says that he knows that Joffrey was lying.How could he know? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Minsc Posted September 5, 2013 Share Posted September 5, 2013 How could he know?He has lived with Joffrey for 12 years and realizes his "son" is an awful human being. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nirolo Posted September 5, 2013 Share Posted September 5, 2013 He has lived with Joffrey for 12 years and realizes his "son" is an awful human being.That's a fallacy, really. Just because I've consistently lied in the past does not mean I am lying right now or will always lie in the future, you know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Minsc Posted September 5, 2013 Share Posted September 5, 2013 That's a fallacy, really. Just because I've consistently lied in the past does not mean I am lying right now or will always lie in the future, you know.And yet his judgement in knowing that Joffrey was lying was correct. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nirolo Posted September 5, 2013 Share Posted September 5, 2013 And yet his judgement in knowing that Joffrey was lying was correct.Nope. Knowing someone has committed crimes in the past should not justify assuming that a person is guilty of whatever crime he is accused of committing in the present. Does this make sense?So Robert does not (or he shouldn't) know Joffrey committed the crime, given the testimonies he heard that day. He has strong suspicions, he looked for evidence to back up his suspicions. He failed, and Lady got killed. Sad story, but it wasn't necessarily Robert's fault. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Minsc Posted September 5, 2013 Share Posted September 5, 2013 So Robert does not (or he shouldn't) know Joffrey committed the crime, given the testimonies he heard that day. He has strong suspicions, he looked for evidence to back up his suspicions. He failed, and Lady got killed. Sad story, but it wasn't necessarily Robert's fault.He directly says he knew, only he didn't do anything besides ordering the killing of an innocent because he is a terrible king. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nirolo Posted September 5, 2013 Share Posted September 5, 2013 He directly says he knew, only he didn't do anything besides ordering the killing of an innocent because he is a terrible king.Like I said, how could he know? What evidence does Robert have that day that allow him to definitively say Arya told the truth, Joffrey lied? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Minsc Posted September 5, 2013 Share Posted September 5, 2013 Like I said, how could he know? What evidence does Robert have that day that allow him to definitively say Arya told the truth, Joffrey lied?Ask Robert if you want to know in how I am just repeating what he himself said. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arya kiddin' Posted September 5, 2013 Share Posted September 5, 2013 Nope. Knowing someone has committed crimes in the past should not justify assuming that a person is guilty of whatever crime he is accused of committing in the present. Does this make sense?So Robert does not (or he shouldn't) know Joffrey committed the crime, given the testimonies he heard that day. He has strong suspicions, he looked for evidence to back up his suspicions. He failed, and Lady got killed. Sad story, but it wasn't necessarily Robert's fault.Why are you involving what-ifs here? Robert confesses that he "believed" his son was lying and still did not act. Where is the conflict here? Why he did believe so is not in question. He did nothing believing so is what is being questioned here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Antony Posted September 5, 2013 Share Posted September 5, 2013 Nice OP, I never once thought Sansa deserved any of the blame for the Lady incident.She only said like 2 words anyway before Arya jumped on her and started hitting her iirc. But yeah the Adults are definitely most at fault here. side note: I love Renly in that scene. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nirolo Posted September 5, 2013 Share Posted September 5, 2013 Ask Robert if you want to know in how I am just repeating what he himself said.Strong suspicion does not constitute knowing. And it is not justice to definitively say Joffrey lied when all Robert had that day was two conflicting witness testimonies. Why are you involving what-ifs here? Robert confesses that he "believed" his son was lying and still did not act. Where is the conflict here? Why he did believe so is not in question. He did nothing believing so is what is being questioned here.We are discussing whether it would be reasonable to blame Robert for making an incorrect decision that day. It is my opinion that is it not reasonable. In a judicial decision, justice is not served when it is based on a simple belief. You need evidence to back up that belief. All I am saying is there was not enough evidence for Robert to reach the right judgement. For this reason, I don't blame him for killing Lady. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Minsc Posted September 5, 2013 Share Posted September 5, 2013 We are discussing whether it would be reasonable to blame Robert for making an incorrect decision that day. It is my opinion that is it not reasonable. In a judicial decision, justice is not served when it is based on a simple belief. You need evidence to back up that belief. All I am saying is there was not enough evidence for Robert to reach the right judgement. For this reason, I don't blame him for killing Lady.So Robert doesn't have evidence to sentence someone he expects to be guilty but enough to convict someone he knows to be innocent? Simply, even if Robert truly had no idea either way his sentencing Lady was an injustice that he committed because his laziness and nothing else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Julian Rayne Posted September 5, 2013 Share Posted September 5, 2013 I put the blame here on the adults: Cersei for insisting on it, Robert for ordering it and Ned for carrying it out. There is no scenario here where Lady isn't killed, nor any scenario where anyone is believed before Joffrey. If Sansa had backed up Arya's story, Cersei would have accused both of them of lying and had the animal killed anyway and Robert would have agreed to get her off his ass. The moral of the story, near as I can tell, is that Ned should have pushed back harder and been more insistent about not punishing an innocent animal. As Ned later explains to Arya, Sansa is more or less compelled to side with Joffrey, and wouldn't have had much success siding against him. The only person who might have had success — Ned — caved and later regretted it.I agree completely. Blaming an eleven year old girl for the injustices committed against her by the adults present makes no sense. And there was absolutely no way Lady was going to get out of there alive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nirolo Posted September 5, 2013 Share Posted September 5, 2013 So Robert doesn't have evidence to sentence someone he expects to be guilty but enough to convict someone he knows to be innocent? Simply, even if Robert truly had no idea either way his sentencing Lady was an injustice that he committed because his laziness and nothing else.Except Robert didn't convict someone he knows to be innocent. Cersei demands the direwolves be killed. A perfectly rational request, in my view, considering one of them just harmed the crown prince. Who will guarantee that Lady will not do the same thing to someone else? What evidence does Robert have that shows the direwolf is not a savage beast? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Julian Rayne Posted September 5, 2013 Share Posted September 5, 2013 So Robert doesn't have evidence to sentence someone he expects to be guilty but enough to convict someone he knows to be innocent? Simply, even if Robert truly had no idea either way his sentencing Lady was an injustice that he committed because his laziness and nothing else.This too. Only I'd blame Robert's acquiescence on his moral cowardice, not laziness. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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