Heresy 79

[Black Crow]

Welcome to Heresy 79, this week’s edition of the popular thread which takes a sideways look at the Song of Ice and Fire.

We call it Heresy because it’s a fairly free-flowing discussion all about challenging the orthodoxies that the Song of Ice and Fire is simply about Jon Snow (or Danaerys Targaryen) turning out to be Azor Ahai and defeating the Others, and that the children of the forest are the good guys who will help do it. Instead as the story has progressed we have come to see a much darker world and that the Starks’ place in it may not be as straightforward as once it seemed and that there is a far more complex conflict going on which may have little or nothing to do with the struggle for the Iron Throne – but one which does seem to be fairly deeply rooted in Celtic and Norse mythology; upon the Mabinigion, the Tain bo Culaidh and Sir Gawain and the Green Night to name but three – and not forgetting Young Tam Lin.

Some of us therefore suspect that the children are perhaps not the cuddly tree-huggers they pretend to be, but something darker. The reality is that the Pact agreed long ago on the Isle of Faces was not an alliance but a singularly one-sided peace treaty which saw the children surrender their lands and weapons, and yet in the end still saw them driven beyond the Wall to face extinction.

This is why some of us suspect that the weirwood faces of the white walkers in the HBO show may point to a connection with the children already admitted but not yet explained by GRRM, and why as Qhorin Halfhand warned, the Old Powers are awakening, the trees have eyes again - and of course Gendel’s children are always hungry.

The role of the Starks is therefore equally ambiguous. They were once kings not of the North but of Winter, and they may be again in the person of Jon Snow.

This is the Song of Ice and Fire; and the Others and the rest of the Old Powers together represent only one side of a conflict that has been waged since time began.

All of these theories are just that and matters of controversy rather tenets of faith. We think we’re reaching a better understanding of what’s really going on, but as heretics we neither promote nor defend a particular viewpoint, in fact we argue quite a lot which is what makes this thread cycle so much fun.

If you’re already actively involved in the Heresy business it needs no further introduction, but if you’re new to the game please don’t be intimidated by all those earlier threads.* We’re very good at talking in circles. We’re also friendly and we don’t mind going over old ground again, especially with a fresh pair of eyes, so just ask.

Otherwise, all that we do ask of you as ever is that the debate be conducted by reference to the text, (after all in order to preach – or refute – heresy you need to be able to quote scripture) with respect for the ideas of others, and above all great good humour.

* for which see Wolfmaid's essential guide to Heresy: http://asoiaf.wester...uide-to-heresy/

[King of Winters]

Here is some concept art for a White Walker...it came with the Season 2 Bluray set.

http://i167.photobucket.com/albums/u148/haveagacktday/Mobile%20Uploads/IMG_20130901_133657.jpg

The back of the card reads "For this image of The White Walker, we created a concept of a horse with its innards trailing on the ground and what seemed like, an ice armoured, White. There's something exceptional, about seeing your painted concepts become a sort of moving reality, through the magic of TV!" -Will Simpson

The thing I don't like about the concept designs is that not one of them, at least the ones I've seen, try and be like the ones in the books. They just want them to look evil.

[Yield.]

Whoops hadn't realise we moved house.

Actually you don't stand alone on this, i believe it is natural magic at work,by that i mean that "the cold" is Natural to the land and makes a periodic journey south. I won't go so far as to call it sentient in the sense that it thinks.Just that it is what it is and is necessary ,it is one of those powers from the land that the wall was intended to stop.(my opinion) For death personified getting pass the Wall south where most people there on account of the war etc.Lots of dead to rise,it will be horrific.

I don't think the Cold is death personified, but rather the same destructive force that dragons are. My reasons for calling it sentient is that it specifically targets threat: the NW. First it sends in an insurgence after Waymar attacks. We see it can move past the Wall so it may just be biding it's time. It is LC's mission though that can be seen as an invasion. When faced with invasion, defend your territory or at the very least show them what for. And we also see retaliation on the part of O and J. since the Cold (and I argue that it is not just a by product of the 2 since neither the dragons or the Red Priest have more than the ordinary heat surrounding then) targets the LC and a ranger. This shows smarts. Tactical, vengeful smarts I would say. As to the wildling deaths I call them more opportunistic, after all every one down adds to the army without endangering the existing soldiers. There is no systematic annihilation of all of mankind, just the dangerous kind. So far anyway.

Not arguing with you as to whether the Cold is what is raising the wights, I think you are right. The role of the WW/wights is another matter.

[Black Crow]

The thing I don't like about the concept designs is that not one of them, at least the ones I've seen, try and be like the ones in the books. They just want them to look evil.

Up to a point, but again I think that's the problem with the medium. GRRM himself has described them, amongst other things, as beautiful and compared them to the Sidhe. Now whether or not you want to buy into the concept of their being a Faerie race I think the problem there is visually depicting a mysterious figure or figures as beautiful and at the same time dangerous. Whatever the book has in store for us, at the moment these guys are the deadly enemy and I think portraying them as GRRM has described them would give the game away too early. Beauty can be dangerous but TV doesn't do subtle.

[Black Crow]

neither the dragons or the Red Priest have more than the ordinary heat surrounding then

I suppose it depends how you define "ordinary"; remember how Mel makes a point of walking with Jon close to the Wall to ensure that he notices how it melts as she passes.

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

So, a bit off-topic, but I'm still running random word searches on character and place names, along with certain other narrative content that I find interesting...

And I'm impressed by the number of references and tie-ins I *think* I'm seeing to various nineteenth century naturalists. Here is a list of botanists, ornithologists, entomologists and illustrators whose work (and names) I believe Martin may have had in mind as he constructed his setting and characters:

-----

Robert Wight (6 July 1796 26 May 1872) was a Scottish surgeon and botanist who spent 30 years in India...

Nathaniel Wallich FRS (28 January 1786 28 April 1854) was a surgeon and botanist of Danish origin who worked in India...

James Bolton (17357 January 1799) was an English naturalist, botanist, mycologist, and illustrator.

William Elford Leach, FRS (2 February 1790 25 August 1836) was an English zoologist and marine biologist.

Max Carl Anton Fürbringer (January 30, 1846 March 6, 1920) was a German anatomist. Known for his anatomical investigations of all types of vertebrates, he specialized in ornithological research avian systematics, morphology and classification.

Asa Gray (November 18, 1810 January 30, 1888) is considered the most important American botanist of the 19th century.

Baron Michel Edmond de Sélys Longchamps (25 May 1813 - 11 December 1900) was a Belgian liberal politician and scientist... Selys-Longchamps was regarded as the world's greatest authority on dragonflies and damselflies.

Reginald John Farrer (1880 17 October 1920), was a traveller and plant collector. He published a number of books, although is best known for My Rock Garden. He travelled to Asia in search of a variety of plants, many of which he brought back to England and planted... In 1914 Farrer and a companion, the Kew-trained William Purdom, set out on an ambitious expedition to Tibet and the Province of Kansu province of North-west China. He found there numerous hardy specimens which today enrich British gardens. Many bear his name, though the list would have been longer if Farrer had not sometimes neglected to collect, as well as plants and seeds, the herbarium specimens necessary for classification and naming. These two years of exploring and plant collecting are described in Farrer's 'On the Eaves of the World' (2 vols) (1917), and in the posthumous 'The Rainbow Bridge' (1921).

-----

[Yield.]

I suppose it depends how you define "ordinary"; remember how Mel makes a point of walking with Jon close to the Wall to ensure that he notices how it melts as she passes.

What I mean is that no one in their vicinity is so over come by heat that they sweat profusely or die of heat exhaustion, opposite of what we see with Ice. In fact no one but Mel herself brings this to our attention.

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

I was recently considering dragonflies, and suddenly I wondered... could the popular question/answer about Bloodraven be a subtle allusion to a compound eye structure?

("How many eyes has Lord Bloodraven? A thousand eyes, and one.")

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7358/9618671640_8eb95e3f43_z.jpg

[Black Crow]

What I mean is that no one in their vicinity is so over come by heat that they sweat profusely or die of heat exhaustion, opposite of what we see with Ice. In fact no one but Mel herself brings this to our attention.

That's what I mean about how you define "ordinary"; both Ice and Fire in this context are magical. Both Mel and dragons are fire made flesh, but the fire is inside and doesn't radiate unless they want it to.

[Urrax]

@Wolfmaid: I don't think CO2 has anything to do with it.

[Yield.]

That's what I mean about how you define "ordinary"; both Ice and Fire in this context are magical. Both Mel and dragons are fire made flesh, but the fire is inside and doesn't radiate unless they want it to.

I not being a prat by asking this, but why would the fire lot not wish to use it?

ETA The poppsies are Ice made fresh and on the inside, hence when they are torn open do the show this and smell of cold pervasively, so same difference.

[wolfmaid7]

@Wolfmaid: I don't think CO2 has anything to do with it.

I agree someone else had brought up that as a possibility . Some kind of underground leakage .

[Harlan]

@Wolfmaid: I don't think CO2 has anything to do with it.

I'm the one who brought it up. I brought it up because of a theory which was proposed to explain some of the properties of the popsicles/cold. It attempts to explain the following properties of popsicles

1. popsicles are impossibly light weight (they don't even break the crust of snow)

2. popsicles are capable of disappearing or appearing apparently at will (as seen in the GoT prolouge)

3. sound of the popsicles blade when it makes contact with steel.

4. ability of "the cold" to put out fire and be generally lethal in a strange way

5. smell of "the cold"

Basically, the theory is that popsicles and the cold are two forms of the same entity which is primarily composed of gas. Popsicles appear when the gas takes on a hyper cooled pseudo solid state while "the cold" is this entity in its gaseous state. This can explain why the popsicles can disappear and reappear. They are essentially just transitioning between their two states. It also can explain why they are so lightwight (they are only as dense as they choose to be, meaning that their effective weight can be manipulated). It further explains the strange sound made when their swords touch steel which can be compared to the follwing video which has metal touching dry ice(a solid gas, here is the video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=USbQMQ4FI48 ) Another thing that this hypothesis explains is "the cold's" ability to put out fire. What most people don't think about is that cold, by itself, can't really put out a fire because fires tend to produce enough heat to sustain the reaction. If the theory is correct, then it's possible that "the cold" can manipulate the concentrations of gases, reducing the available oxygen to the fire (or to a human) which would kill the fire. One last property of "the cold" which is often talked about, but rarely thought about, is the fact that characters can smell it. If the cold is simply a temperature change then people shouldn't be able to smell it. They would be able to detect "the cold" using temperature senors in the skin, but they wouldn't be able to smell it. If, on the other hand, "the cold" is just some kind of sentient air, then this air could be smelt as it would be composed of abnormal concentrations of particles.

So, how cracked is this pot?

edit: here's some more dry ice screams for people who like to torture themselves

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cC2GnMU-D0k

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

I'm the one who brought it up. I brought it up because of a theory which was proposed to explain some of the properties of the popsicles/cold. It attempts to explain the following properties of popsicles

1. popsicles are impossibly light weight (they don't even break the crust of snow)

2. popsicles are capable of disappearing or appearing apparently at will (as seen in the GoT prolouge)

3. sound of the popsicles blade when it makes contact with steel.

4. ability of "the cold" to put out fire and be generally lethal in a strange way

5. smell of "the cold"

Basically, the theory is that popsicles and the cold are two forms of the same entity which is primarily composed of gas. Popsicles appear when the gas takes on a hyper cooled pseudo solid state while "the cold" is this entity in its gaseous state. This can explain why the popsicles can disappear and reappear. They are essentially just transitioning between their two states. It also can explain why they are so lightwight (they are only as dense as they choose to be, meaning that their effective weight can be manipulated). It further explains the strange sound made when their swords touch steel which can be compared to the follwing video which has metal touching dry ice(a solid gas, here is the video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=USbQMQ4FI48 ) Another thing that this hypothesis explains is "the cold's" ability to put out fire. What most people don't think about is that cold, by itself, can't really put out a fire because fires tend to produce enough heat to sustain the reaction. If the theory is correct, then it's possible that "the cold" can manipulate the concentrations of gases, reducing the available oxygen to the fire (or to a human) which would kill the fire. One last property of "the cold" which is often talked about, but rarely thought about, is the fact that characters can smell it. If the cold is simply a temperature change then people shouldn't be able to smell it. They would be able to detect "the cold" using temperature senors in the skin, but they wouldn't be able to smell it. If, on the other hand, "the cold" is just some kind of sentient air, then this air could be smelt as it would be composed of abnormal concentrations of particles.

So, how cracked is this pot?

Super cracked. I love it. It would also allow for interesting connections to the trees/COTF. After all... Plants depend on CO2 for photosynthesis and survival.

[wolfmaid7]

I'm the one who brought it up. I brought it up because of a theory which was proposed to explain some of the properties of the popsicles/cold. It attempts to explain the following properties of popsicles

1. popsicles are impossibly light weight (they don't even break the crust of snow)

2. popsicles are capable of disappearing or appearing apparently at will (as seen in the GoT prolouge)

3. sound of the popsicles blade when it makes contact with steel.

4. ability of "the cold" to put out fire and be generally lethal in a strange way

5. smell of "the cold"

Basically, the theory is that popsicles and the cold are two forms of the same entity which is primarily composed of gas. Popsicles appear when the gas takes on a hyper cooled pseudo solid state while "the cold" is this entity in its gaseous state. This can explain why the popsicles can disappear and reappear. They are essentially just transitioning between their two states. It also can explain why they are so lightwight (they are only as dense as they choose to be, meaning that their effective weight can be manipulated). It further explains the strange sound made when their swords touch steel which can be compared to the follwing video which has metal touching dry ice(a solid gas, here is the video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=USbQMQ4FI48 ) Another thing that this hypothesis explains is "the cold's" ability to put out fire. What most people don't think about is that cold, by itself, can't really put out a fire because fires tend to produce enough heat to sustain the reaction. If the theory is correct, then it's possible that "the cold" can manipulate the concentrations of gases, reducing the available oxygen to the fire (or to a human) which would kill the fire. One last property of "the cold" which is often talked about, but rarely thought about, is the fact that characters can smell it. If the cold is simply a temperature change then people shouldn't be able to smell it. They would be able to detect "the cold" using temperature senors in the skin, but they wouldn't be able to smell it. If, on the other hand, "the cold" is just some kind of sentient air, then this air could be smelt as it would be composed of abnormal concentrations of particles.

So, how cracked is this pot?

Scientifically speaking like I said the first time you posted, though I couldn't remember it was you. Loved it ☺

[LynnS]

So, how cracked is this pot?

edit: here's some more dry ice screams for people who like to torture themselves

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cC2GnMU-D0k

Hey, I don't think it's cracked at all. The theory makes sense but it does imply that the CO2 mass is directed by an intelligence rather than random. CO2 has a slightly pungent smell and biting taste as described in the link below. It's interesting that Craster says that the bite got his ear. The cold is also described as a cold so intense that it burns.

http://www.dakotagas.com/Products/Product_Safety/Carbon_dioxide_safety.html

CO2 is absorbed by the hemoglobin in red blood cells and at saturation; oxygen binds with tissue cells which would explain why wights are highly flammable and go up like candles even when naked.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KdBJ7HUs0U4

I'm still wondering why Othor smelled so bad that Jon gagged when he chopped him open. He noticed the internal refrigerant as increased cold but what was that smell? LOL!

[#Fire and Blood]

Not to beat a dead horse.... But I found a good line from the the V6skins prologue.

"The chill was in him too, though, deep down in his bones. This time it would be the cold that killed him.

His last death had been by FIRE. I burned. At first, in his confusion, he thought some archer in the Wall had pierced him with a flaming arrow ....... But the fire had been inside him, consuming him. And the pain...."

I believe we know (or heavily assume) that this was Mel using her fire magic to kill the Eagle 6skins was controlling. He describes feeling the heat consume him from the inside. It felt like an arrow (a weapon). I say it was a weapon that Mel used and was from her fire magic

Now into the first part of the quote. He says this time it will be the cold that kills me. Directly after he desecibes being killed by fire. He is feeling the magical cold coming over him and he know that it is going to kill him. I would say, that the parallel here is the fire was being used as a weapon inside him as the eagle and now the same thing is happening to him with the cold. In both cases I do not believe he knows where the magical internal cold and fire was coming from, so we can assume that he really does not know much about either of the magics (of ice and fire).

Does this make sense?

[addicted to snow]

Another thing that this hypothesis explains is "the cold's" ability to put out fire. What most people don't think about is that cold, by itself, can't really put out a fire because fires tend to produce enough heat to sustain the reaction. If the theory is correct, then it's possible that "the cold" can manipulate the concentrations of gases, reducing the available oxygen to the fire (or to a human) which would kill the fire. One last property of "the cold" which is often talked about, but rarely thought about, is the fact that characters can smell it. If the cold is simply a temperature change then people shouldn't be able to smell it. They would be able to detect "the cold" using temperature senors in the skin, but they wouldn't be able to smell it. If, on the other hand, "the cold" is just some kind of sentient air, then this air could be smelt as it would be composed of abnormal concentrations of particles.

Temperature drop (in thermodynamics called 'delta'T) can indeed put a fire out…

Carbon Dioxide is odorless (see link in LynnS's post above), so it is unlikely that ASOIAF characters were able to smell it. It is more likely that their experience has awarded them fairly decent weather forecasting abilities & just like people say "It smells like rain", they say "It smells like cold"...

It is an interesting theory, but would GRRM rely on his readers all understand thermodynamics???

[addicted to snow]

Hey, I don't think it's cracked at all. The theory makes sense but it does imply that the CO2 mass is directed by an intelligence rather than random. CO2 has a slightly pungent smell and biting taste as described in the link below. It's interesting that Craster says that the bite got his ear. The cold is also described as a cold so intense that it burns.

http://www.dakotagas.com/Products/Product_Safety/Carbon_dioxide_safety.html

When Craster says that the 'bite' got his ear, he means the 'frostbite'...

[Harlan]

Temperature drop (in thermodynamics called 'delta'T) can indeed put a fire out

Carbon Dioxide is odorless (see link in LynnS's post above), so it is unlikely that ASOIAF characters were able to smell it. It is more likely that their experience has awarded them fairly decent weather forecasting abilities & just like people say "It smells like rain", they say "It smells like cold"...

It is an interesting theory, but would GRRM rely on his readers all understand thermodynamics???

CO2 has a slight pungent odor according to the link you mentioned. Temperature drop would specifically be a negative delta T. As to the matter of cold being unable to put out a fire, you are, strictly speaking, correct in saying that a temperature drop could theoretically extinguish a fire. I'm not sure whether thats actually feasible though as the heat produced by a something like a camp fire ought to be high enough to sustain the reaction regardless of outside temperature. I haven't performed the necessary calculations to prove this though and may be mistaken.

All that being said, the theory has more to do with the nature of the popsicles as beings of supercooled air rather than identifying any kind of specific chemical make-up.