Timbo of Bravos Posted May 25, 2007 Share Posted May 25, 2007 This is more of a ramble than anything but its so twisted it might be possible. Thinking about R + L = J. If Jon is the only son of R that makes his claim better than Dany's. As has been brought up before the Kingsgaurd stayed at the Tower of Joy to protect the royal heir (we think). R was the Targ heir. That makes any son of his the rightful king before any of the Mad King's other kids. I have this mental image of how things go...Dany fights and wins the kingdom...the Others are destroyed utterly freeing Jon from the NW because the NW is gone. Just as she prepares to sit the Iron throne she cuts herself on it and the new Grand Maester Sam Tarly points out that by all the laws of the realm she is not queen, its Jon who is king. She flies into a rage, at which point Bran wargs into Drogon and roasts her... Its twisted and dark and ironic. The perfect wrap up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Circle Breaker Posted May 25, 2007 Share Posted May 25, 2007 Assuming R+L=J is true, Jon would have to not be a bastard to be a legit heir. I do not think the possible legitimaztion decree that Robb could have given would be considered legal for gaining the Iron Throne, just the kingship of the North. That said, Jon has been a bastard his whole life. It would be great (however predictable) if he really was a legit son of Rhaegar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hijinx Posted May 25, 2007 Share Posted May 25, 2007 That makes any son of his the rightful king before any of the Mad King's other kids. That would only be true if Rheagar had ever been crowned. Instead, he bought it on the trident. That would put Viserys next in line of succession, before any of Rheagar's children. If you allow women to be in the line of succession, that would put her ahead of Rheagar's children as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happy Ent Posted May 25, 2007 Share Posted May 25, 2007 That would only be true if Rheagar had ever been crowned. No. No such rule exists. If you allow women to be in the line of succession, that would put her ahead of Rheagar's children as well. Martin has built that question into the Targaryen backstory. Read up about the Dance of Dragons, for example at Wikipedia: House Targaryen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Timbo of Bravos Posted May 25, 2007 Author Share Posted May 25, 2007 Having reviewed some of the excellent posts regarding R+L=J the fact that the KG stayed behind at the Tower of Joy lends support to the idea that someone of royal blood was there. The little bit of data we have about Targ bastards doesn't seem to indicate that KG were assigned bastard duty. In AFFC we hear about the courtesan who had Targ blood, she didn't have a KG following her around. Those shinning knights on the losing side hung around that tower for a reason. If that was not so they would have been at the Trident, had they been there I bet Dawn would have done a dance all over Robert and his hammer... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frog Eater Posted May 25, 2007 Share Posted May 25, 2007 The succession question will be resolved when Dany dies in her quest for the crown. Therefore, it wont matter that she is barren, because Jon will rule all of Westeros (as the legitimate son of Rhaegar and Lyanna) after the fall of the Others and the dismissal of the Nights Watch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bronn Stone Posted May 25, 2007 Share Posted May 25, 2007 Not to mention that the Targs have a history of polygamy. I am absolutely convinced that this will be a key element in some as yet unrevealed fact - whether that is Danerys marrying twice or Rhaegar having secretly wed Lyanna (which would be another reason for 3 KG at the ToJ - protecting Princess Lyanna as well as her unborn son) or both is something I eagerly await learning. But as far as I see, it will almost assuredly be one or the other. The Targ polygamy bit keeps coming up too often for it only to have affected ancient history. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Falkner Posted May 25, 2007 Share Posted May 25, 2007 As Frog Eater said, Daenerys can't produce any heirs, so who would follow her? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skid Posted May 25, 2007 Share Posted May 25, 2007 As Frog Eater said, Daenerys can't produce any heirs, so who would follow her? Everyone nobody knows she can't produce any heirs, and we're also not 100% sure about it, since this is a fantasy setting and anything is possible really. The point about the KG guarding royalty isn't 100%. Rhaegar might've ordered it without having married Lyanna, and they would still be forced to obey. We know Jon has targ blood. we can't be certain if he's a bastard targ or a legit one. The answer to that question is also more political than historical, since support for his claim will only come from those who gain politically from it, regardless of how legit his birth is. But yeah, one possible ending, and a nice one i think, is dany dying screaming "My line has ended!", then someone tells her "No, there is another." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mad Monkey Posted May 25, 2007 Share Posted May 25, 2007 If Rhaegar is not married to Lyanna, then if R + L = J is true how would Jon not be a bastard? If it's a secret, then who is the reliable source for this? The only person I can think of who would know this is Rhaegar and Lyanna (they probably kept the wedding -- if there was one -- a secret, since she was betrothed to Robert at the time and neither he nor Eddard nor Aerys seemed to think that Lyanna was cheating on him). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valcos Posted May 25, 2007 Share Posted May 25, 2007 Think about this for a second guys; Jon = Baby Aegon! Wrap your minds around that one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redcandle17 Posted May 25, 2007 Share Posted May 25, 2007 Think about this for a second guys; Jon = Baby Aegon! Except, you know, the parts where everyone says that Jon looks like a Stark. I'm curious as to how a Dornish princess(black hair, dark brown eyes, and olive skin) and a Targ(silver hair, purple eyes) could produce Jon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grey Wind Posted May 25, 2007 Share Posted May 25, 2007 Except, you know, the parts where everyone says that Jon looks like a Stark. I'm curious as to how a Dornish princess(black hair, dark brown eyes, and olive skin) and a Targ(silver hair, purple eyes) could produce Jon. Aegon was actually the bastard son of Ellia and Brandon Stark. Which is why Rhaegar kidnapped and raped Lyanna. I base this on absolutely nothing. Grey Wind P.S. Can you hear that sound? It's the resounding crash of a store full of pottery falling on the floor... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_BlauerDragon Posted May 25, 2007 Share Posted May 25, 2007 Aegon was actually the bastard son of Ellia and Brandon Stark. Which is why Rhaegar kidnapped and raped Lyanna. I base this on absolutely nothing. Grey Wind P.S. Can you hear that sound? It's the resounding crash of a store full of pottery falling on the floor... Actually, I find that theory to be much more plausible than the old R+L=J ... You may have dropped all the pottery in the shop, but I don't see a cracked pot anywhere... Or, um... could it be that the two incidents are unrelated and Jon is Ned's bastard after all? But maybe, born to Ellia? Or some other royal woman whom he loved and would have married if duty hadn't bound him to marry Cat instead? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SFDanny Posted May 25, 2007 Share Posted May 25, 2007 Jon is not the baby Aegon switched at birth. We know Aegon had marked Targaryen traits, Jon has marked Stark traits. It's not possible. And even if Jon morphed into a Stark by some strange coincidence, how did the one to two year age difference go unmarked by Catelyn Stark when she found the infant Jon at Winterfell? I like good crackpot theories, but this one doesn't pass the laugh test. Now, if one wants to speculate that Jon wasn't the only child at the Tower of Joy, then we can go on forever with very little to support or deny our fantasies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redcandle17 Posted May 26, 2007 Share Posted May 26, 2007 I like good crackpot theories, but this one doesn't pass the laugh test. Now, if one wants to speculate that Jon wasn't the only child at the Tower of Joy, then we can go on forever with very little to support or deny our fantasies. In that case then, Jon is the spawn of Lyanna and Rhaegar, Ashara's off somewhere with baby Aegon, and the baby Gregor killed was Wylla's(she was Jon's wet nurse which makes me think she'd had a child around the same time). We could add in a fourth baby to the mix, Ned and Ashara's, perhaps being raised as Wylla's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Targaryen Posted May 26, 2007 Share Posted May 26, 2007 This is more of a ramble than anything but its so twisted it might be possible. Thinking about R + L = J. If Jon is the only son of R that makes his claim better than Dany's. As has been brought up before the Kingsgaurd stayed at the Tower of Joy to protect the royal heir (we think). R was the Targ heir. That makes any son of his the rightful king before any of the Mad King's other kids. I have this mental image of how things go...Dany fights and wins the kingdom...the Others are destroyed utterly freeing Jon from the NW because the NW is gone. Just as she prepares to sit the Iron throne she cuts herself on it and the new Grand Maester Sam Tarly points out that by all the laws of the realm she is not queen, its Jon who is king. She flies into a rage, at which point Bran wargs into Drogon and roasts her... Its twisted and dark and ironic. The perfect wrap up. Sounds like someone doesn't like Dany, honestly. She could easily die in the war for the dawn or even her invasion of Westeros. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SFDanny Posted May 26, 2007 Share Posted May 26, 2007 In that case then, Jon is the spawn of Lyanna and Rhaegar, Ashara's off somewhere with baby Aegon, and the baby Gregor killed was Wylla's(she was Jon's wet nurse which makes me think she'd had a child around the same time). We could add in a fourth baby to the mix, Ned and Ashara's, perhaps being raised as Wylla's. All possible. Very few likely. Can I add my favorite two? Either Ser Gerold Dayne (aka the Darkstar) is the fraternal twin of Jon, who because of his Targ traits is raised among the Daynes to hid him, or he is the baby Aegon hidden for the same reasons. Very little to support either scenario, but fun to think about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AquariumDrinker Posted May 26, 2007 Share Posted May 26, 2007 This is more of a ramble than anything but its so twisted it might be possible. Thinking about R + L = J. If Jon is the only son of R that makes his claim better than Dany's. As has been brought up before the Kingsgaurd stayed at the Tower of Joy to protect the royal heir (we think). R was the Targ heir. That makes any son of his the rightful king before any of the Mad King's other kids. I have this mental image of how things go...Dany fights and wins the kingdom...the Others are destroyed utterly freeing Jon from the NW because the NW is gone. Just as she prepares to sit the Iron throne she cuts herself on it and the new Grand Maester Sam Tarly points out that by all the laws of the realm she is not queen, its Jon who is king. She flies into a rage, at which point Bran wargs into Drogon and roasts her... Its twisted and dark and ironic. The perfect wrap up. This may fit a bit better in the "What if ASOIAF was written by a typical fantasy author" thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valcos Posted May 26, 2007 Share Posted May 26, 2007 In that case then, Jon is the spawn of Lyanna and Rhaegar, Ashara's off somewhere with baby Aegon, and the baby Gregor killed was Wylla's(she was Jon's wet nurse which makes me think she'd had a child around the same time). We could add in a fourth baby to the mix, Ned and Ashara's, perhaps being raised as Wylla's. Hmm... Ned switched babies? That sounds strangely similar to something else... something Jon would do. Coincidental parallel? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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