Curled Finger

Interesting your mention of the Vale. I wondered if the cousins could be counted on. Maybe Randy Randa will decide she wants Jon! Oh dear. Sigh.

We trust there will be an expedient aftermath to Stannis' attack on Winterfell which has two major ultimate outcomes: Stannis defeats the Boltons and reclaims Winterfell or is vanquished. Let the sub outcomes roll. Jon Snow, likely all the surviving Stark children, will physically come into play at or for the sake of their ancestral home and to restore stability and unity to the North. Possibilities for Jon leaving the Wall are: Choice, natural disaster, supernatural, unknown prophecy/vision, dismissal, diplomatic mission/NW business. No doubt there are more. He doesn't have to abandon his post to travel south, it may well be part of his duties. The mechanism for his being south of the Wall is not the point here. At this point and it is fairly safe to assume Jon will retain the loyalty and affection of those he has established bonds with, he has few major connections south of the Wall, Stannis Baratheon, being most prominent. Mance Rayder may yet be influential in the south, still the northern lords know little of Jon Snow. His greatest strengths lie in the remote Mountain Clans and Wildlings. He himself established House Thenn at Karstark. With no news of the new house or Alys, we can't know if they thrive or have Neighborhood Watch staked out along the perimeters, but surely this house is credited to or blamed on Jon. I don't think Jon will be able to have it all, King in the North, the Iron Throne, all the heroes and the beautiful dragon queen. Martin is showing us he could maybe get all this stuff if he was made of different stuff, ambitious and hungry like a wolf maybe. But this is Jon who doesn't really know what he wants. He wants people to be safe. He will end up doing some of these things and helping other people do some of these things. He will need support. I don't buy it that Ramsay Bolton's reputation will bleed over to Jon for any thinking northman. Prejudice will be in the ignorant and that cannot be helped. Who will end up supporting Jon in the aftermath of the reclaiming of Winterfell, when the Boltons are no longer a threat? By support this could be for Jon as a military commander for one of the other kids instilled as ruler, for himself as regent or ruler, for expeditions north...something I haven't yet considered?

Not throwing shade as I do find some of the information gathering impressive, but in some cases of these alternate identities/parentages the idea seems more important than why it's important. But, it's not's really a discussion in those cases either. There are characters who scream for these discussions. Dany not so much. We are supposed to wonder about this lemon tree and red door, the place Dany thinks of as home and all that represents to our warrior queen. We're with her as she learns what it means to be blood of the dragon. She's complicated and her journey to self discovery and womanhood and power is complicated. She needs to be a Targaryen to have this journey. So yah, what is compelling about having Dany be someone other than the daughter of Rhaella and Aerys?

It's not what Tormond keeps his ale in?

Pre Rant: Great points about the agreement between Oberyn & Darry. You seem pretty certain that Aegon is a brat. Not the 1st time I have seen this. You have no location listed. I am in Mordor. Not an even remotely nice place. This is a dry, hot, brutal dead place where I am. I live with ugly misshapen creatures here. However, if anyone showed up on a living dragon forget 2 others in tow, I would be awed. Now if this person was foretold recently, say by some nasty tempered wicked dwarf I would likely take quick personal inventory and drop to my knees, swear immediate and eternal fealty and give said dragon rider anything they wished. Point being dragons are game changers even for brats. I do understand your position. I hope Aegon isn't that guy. I hope Arianne finds a cute sell sword to have endless fantastic romance with on a ship far away from Westeros. My small gleam of hope is that Arianne doesn't seem to find Lysano Mar (?) attractive in the least so perhaps she will be utterly repulsed by Aegon thereby avoiding that bullet, leaving only Elia to deal with. But this is ASOIAF and none of that will happen and you are probably right and it will all be a sad waste of effort and humanity. Can I still hope that Arianne and Dany hook up?

Whoa! You are taking a few jumps here. I think the hit is planned for Trystane, right? How does Myrcella's death ensure the Stormland's loyalties to Aegon? Technically, they belong to Tommen, right? I get the Blackfyre loyalists and imagine they are already in the loop with the Aegon funky bunch. Tyrion is no where near Westeros and doesn't appear to be in any position to be advising anyone on the continent for a long while. Is your implication that Tyrion's friends will be Aegon's friends so Dorne is unimportant to Aegon? Edric is MIA, though it would be great to see him back in story. Problem is, he is a Baratheon. I think Aegon's purpose is probably to scour Westeros of those lousy Baratheons like Robert did to his folks. The Golden Company is comprised of displaced Westerosi lords among others. I imagine some of them would like a cool castle like Storms End better than a usurping dog Baratheon bastard. Maybe a nice retirement home for Strickland? Or a love nest for Conington? Aegon isn't paying the Golden Company. They are in Westeros for the promise of restored and new lands and castles. Just for fun not that I think it will happen, I would love to see Stannis roll up on these guys.

Ok I will bite. Let's suppose Dany comes to Dorne knowing she was pledged to marry a presumably dead prince. Seems to me if Doran is still living and ruling he will be far more angry with her than she will be with him for not upholding the bargain. Tyrion spurred Aegon on to Westeros. This was a dirty move, but perhaps not bad advice. If he's doing well and not hitched to Arianne and waiting for Dany this could work in Aegon's favor. Lots of maybes I know. I'm just not confident in any of the remaining Martell's abilities to effectively do anything substantial to Daenerys Targaryen, Mother of Dragons, Breaker of Chains, Queen of Everything... Is Aegon fool enough to marry Arianne or Elia when he knows what Dany is? I mean, a win at Storms End is a big deal. Does he need Dorne when the The Reach may well be on his side anyway? Doesn't this 1st win imply that the Stormlands are his adding to his army?

True. I still like Stannis better when he's just being Stannis. Not Davos' savior, Not Mel's AAR, just Stannis. He's going to have a blast with Theon and Asha or will it be the other way around?

Davos is different. Davos is a common man. Ned is unique among nobility and Davos of course becomes nobility but you understand that, it's built in. It occurred to when I was outraged to see Stannis die that Davos really is the very best thing about him. Took 3 days of discussion to get there. That doesn't mean I don't enjoy Stannis. I just don't ride the Mannis train anymore. You want to book a Davos train? Book me now. Although you're right about Stannis needing Davos to bring him to earth and reason I wonder if he really needs Melisandre to take him to the depths of depravity he seems willing to go. I think he wants to believe and maybe does a bit. But I like Stannis in Theon 1 from TWOW without either of them. That's Stannis, decisive, thinking ahead, not taking anyone's crap, being The Boss.

That helps a lot, thankee, Sai. I knew I saw she was heir somewhere! She gets to Winterfell in March of 299, arrives in the cave sometime in August 300. Looks like I have a hot date with a calendar.

First of all, where are you getting 16? I'm just doing math straight off the Wiki. All I have is born 283. I'm pretty sure you know I have other ideas that pretty much hinge on her age. If you have something I would love to have it. I don't know if you've read through or not. I could swear Meera is the heir, which I thought stuck out like a sore thumb in the North. I checked the Wiki and it says both she and Jojen are heirs, which is about the weirdest thing I have ever seen in Westeros. Though you are no doubt right about a lot of people not wanting a cool moving castle Stannis and the Golden Company brought a bunch of displaced lords to the North in search of lands and castles. You would think someone would be game. Still, you're right, The Crannogmen are a rather isolated group and don't seem to get out a lot. That's just it, my friend. Rickon isn't like to do what is popularly expected of his character. He may not show up at all. Of course, that does make my proposition a bit harder to discuss. I guess I could go the route of LSH or Theon publically hearing Bran from a weirwood, but that's not as good as hearing it from Rickon or Osha. Still, that is all I'm wondering here, if anyone would think to look for Bran once Rickon is known to be alive. How much trouble will this make for Jon supporters, Rickon supporters and Arya supporters?

People have definitely see Bran. Doesn't mean they will tell or make any effort to find him. Just throwing dice here. I am of a mind they wouldn't find Bran even if they did go looking. I would enjoy all this hooplah over Rickon and then Jon coming to a screeching halt over Bran though. When you consider all the trouble The Boltons, Manderlys, Reeds and others have gone to for their Stark it's kind of funny.

I do believe it's possible if not probable. That POV would be Jamie or Brienne with LSH and the BwB. We know she's been reportedly headed that way previously. Let's just go all out and assume LSH is after the will. In this case what does HR do? I guess he might let them in. It seems to me that this would be our only look at Greywater Watch and Howland Reed and this will. Howland knows things that might calm LSH down some...like Jon's true identity, various plans for reinstating Bran or Rickon, maybe some backstory on Winterfell, The Starks or the Others. It's more than likely he could give her an update on Bran's well being. Maybe Rickon's. Maybe Ned's bones. Maybe he can tell her Jon's dead so the will is meaningless and she can focus on Bran. Maybe he can shoot her right in the throat gash with a poison dart.

Wiki is weird, but I am determined I know Meera is the heir to Greywater Watch. Wiki says both of them are heir. Gads, that reread gets closer every day. You don't think she's Dornish. No one knows where Jyanna Reed came from. She could be anyone, like that chick Meera and Jojen seem to know every guy she danced with at Harrenhal. Just sayin'. Ned Stark was willing to marry his eldest daughter off soonish when she was 12. Meera is 17. How come no one is married to her? Lyanna Mormont is 10? Why isn't she coming up in conversation? Wylla Mandery is 16 and already has a betrothal lost due to death with another betrothal in the wings. "Arya Stark" is 11 (probably closer to 13-14 in true ID) and miserably married and escaped already. The Reeds don't know kids are stupid.

Only you, Man! Worst part is, I know exactly what you mean.

In that case you could not be more right. You get through ADWD exhausted, beat from all this ugliness then go back to Waymar and all that horror. Then you get back to Ned and really understand what a loss he is to the whole bloody awful lousy tale. No one like him in this story. I didn't think it was possible, but reading his beheading the 2nd time actually hurt worse.

Well I think they do, but I got absolutely nothing saying either way. Kinda curious Meera has all the physical ability but no magic and Jojen is the opposite. Kinda curious Meera is the heir to Greywater Watch.

OK, but there is still Theon. Theon can vouch for Osha. My only point is that if Bran is suspected to be living that sort of puts Rickon and Jon both on hold, even if Robb left a will and it becomes known. I put it together you meant Rickon, and that makes sense. I think that's why Martin put multiple adults in to back it all up or dredge it all up. I can't help but recall the shaggydog story. Rickon is a Stark and important for that if nothing else. I am not sold that he will necessarily do what anyone wants him to do. Could be Manderly takes one look at this kid and moans "Oh Hell no, not my girl" soon as he sees Rickon. Lots of possibilities. I didn't mean to derail you.

Fricken quiet Reeds. Bran knew who they were. Robb knew to trust Lord Reed and sent 2 of his most trusted (generals?) to him with Eyes Only intel. So Glover and Mormont knew who they were. But I get where you are going with this. @Corvo the Crow has a topic going about Manderly's g-girl marrying Rickon which sort of spurred this as it got me thinking about eligible marrying girls, Meera being among them. Heck, Meera is almost a spinster at 17. Someone should be looking to marry her, she's the heir to Greywater Watch. Who wouldn't want a moving castle? Theon knows he didn't kill the Reeds. Their bodies were not recovered. Curious that. Could be he didn't count them worthy of reckoning, but they were hanging out with Bran quite a bit...Yah, I suppose Pops and Jojen are talking in their sleep or some weird green dream thing, but dang, that's some trust or something to put on a couple of kids.

Bran was 7 or 8 so Rickon was 4 or 5 I think. But Rickon's memory is not the only thing at play here, there is Osha, who may be 100% Team Rickon. For all we know Rickon is betrothed to the Magnar's daughter and has a nice future ahead of him on Skagos. And Theon should be out in the open with his truth, too. I think there is a chance that Manderly's grand design will go fubar when all these survivors tell their tales. I'm not certain that Rickon and Osha actually know where Bran & Co actually went or that it matters. The Liddle has a good idea. The point that Bran was alive may be enough wrench to throw into Manderly's grand design for marriage and political advantage.

ACOK through ADWD?

Perhaps not. Though Manderly sure went to extremes to extract Rickon just as Bolton is playing a dangerous game with "Arya". These Stark kids seem to be a priority among some of the northern lords. How dangerous would it be to send a raven to Greywater Watch?

There is that, too, which never came up! Thanks for dropping that in!

I do appreciate your patience with me. In the past other posters have pointed out to me that this knowledge is why the Wulls, Liddles and Norreys joined Jon at the Wall. To take his measure. Being so far north these people may be more aware of the goings on with the Wildlings and Nights Watch and by extension, greenseers, Craster, the COTF and the Others. Like Tormond, they may have suffered losses to wights or Others. They may have retained ancient knowledge of the pacts and TLN and understand the significance of a Stark with a living Direwolf traveling north far better than we do. In short, they are playing their own long game in the many conspiracies at play in the North, secretly backing Bran against all other comers. Sam didn't tell Jon about his run in with Bran...or Coldhands! The Liddle was very sketchy during his short encounter with the kids. He spoke in riddles and euphemism, as much warning the kids to be very careful and telling them their secret was safe with him. He may have done no more than report to the clans that the kids were coming their way and to keep watch over them, make them safe if they happened to spy them. I think a simple Bran Stark sighting would be the gossip of the year among any loyal bannermen.

I think I get this with all the main characters over time and reread. I hated Jamie, Theon, Catelyn, Sansa. Couldn't understand why Stannis, Arya or Ned were so beloved. It comes with reading and discussion and understanding. Stannis is complex. Jamie is complex. Theon is complex. I was fine in my understanding until Cersei had that walk of shame and I was moved. Even though I love to hate her, I was moved. Even though I love to hate her, this is the death I look least forward to. I don't know if Cersei is as complex as Stannis or Theon, but I do know she is one hell of a character, one delicious wicked queen and she will have to pay the piper. I think loving them one minute and hating them the next is precisely how Martin wants us to feel about them.