Sly Wren

3 hours ago, Daeron the Daring said:

It's not a mistery.

Not a lot of people give a single tought about Eddard Stark south of the Neck. Even less would about a bastard. Bastards are not a mistery, nor a sensation. 

There is nothing for Eddard Stark to hide, but it's, one one hand, pointless to throw mud at the name of the woman she might have had feelings for (regardless of what she felt about him), because her pregnancy is just a speculation On the other hand, it's much more believable that Ned Stark, 'famous' for his honor would need to dump his sexual needs in a military campaign, away from his wife. After all, he's just a man as well, they'd think. If he said Jon is Ashara's son, it would imply that he pursued a relationship with another noblewoman as a married man. Implying that Jon's mother holds no relevancy for him is the best for Catelyn, the best for himself, the best for Ashara and the best for Jon as well.

Right--but isn't that the point of the OP's question?

There's nothing really for Ned to hide if it isn't Ashara. No point in naming anyone.

But Ned never tells anyone (other than Robert) that it wasn't Ashara--Cat says he got really angry, told her never "to ask about Jon," demanded where she'd heard the name, and made the whole of Winterfell shut up. He doesn't deny it's Ashara, let alone mention Wylla. And Cat is left thinking that Ned must have loved Jon's mother "fiercely." The opposite of the effect you note would be best. 

When Cersei mentions Ashara, Ned just says nothing. One assumes Cersei thus continues to think she's right, not that Ned didn't care for Ashara. 

And Harwin suggests to Arya that Ned loved Ashara. That's the story that seems to have gotten out--the opposite of what you suggest.

So . . . given that Ned won't talk about it, and that he won't argue with people who think it's Ashara. . . what  is the point of naming Wylla? Especially once we find out that she's a real person living with a noble house who thinks she's Jon's mother? What's the point of this? 

It's odd.

1 hour ago, Buried Treasure said:

My suggestion was not that Wylla's name was not given as the answer to the question 'who is the child's mother?'. But rather her name was truthfully given as the name of the actual women witnessed nursing the infant Jon - and the inferred lie was allowing it to be assumed this woman was mother not wetnurse. 

Though I did misremember something on my previous post: I said Ned Dayne was told Wylla was Jon's wetnurse. He was actually told Wylla was Jon's mother. And this was in Dorne years after Ned had gone north. Which goes back to the point of somebody at starfell being complicit in telling Ned's version of events. Perhaps Wylla herself was willing to clearly say she was the mother.

1. My apologies--I read too quickly.

2. On the bolded--yes. Starfall actively embraces this story for some reason. It's weird. Ned Dayne, the Lord of Starfall, seems to think it's a cool factoid that he shared a wet-nurse with the Bastard of Winterfell. GRRM is drawing a circle around this story for some reason.

And Wylla is not refuting the story to the Lord of Starfall--for some reason, she's going along with it.

If the point is just to hide Jon's parentage and keep Jon safe at Winterfell (or the Wall), there is no need for Ned to go along with the Daynes' story that a living woman at Starfall is Jon's mother. Not when Ned is so clearly willing to say nothing. It's weird. 

I really think GRRM setting us up to eventually learn that Starfall is hiding something much bigger. 

16 hours ago, Bendric Dayne said:

Yeah I believe that the Daynes are in on the same lie as Ned and were the ones who possibly conceived it. The fact that Wylla is the lie and that that's the story they tell Ned Dayne tells me that's the case. I guess I'd like to know why it is that the Daynes and Ned came up with the Wylla lie and didn't go along with the Ashara lie. I guess we'll find out if/when TWOW comes out. 

My best guess is that the Daynes have a secret as dangerous (or close to it) as Jon's parentage. Probably something to do with Ashara's mystery child that seems to change gender based on story. That could explain why Ned is so vehement about keeping her name out of any discussions about secrets.

I'm also one who thinks it likely that Lyanna ended up living at Starfall for a bit, probably under an alias and disguise (like Arya and Sansa do)--which could be really dangerous for the Daynes if Robert found out it. 

And, give that the Daynes have clearly taught Edric/Ned to think highly of Ned Stark, the guy who killed their literal chosen son--I really think it's likely Ned is keeping not just a secret about Jon, but a secret that protects the Daynes. Maybe the same secret. Maybe different ones. But something is up with the Daynes.

Thus, the "Wylla" story is a marker that something else is up. And I think that Wylla Manderly is also a marker that something else is up. ETA: I have a whole theory with questionable scenarios on this, so I'm trying not to derail your thread. But if you have interest in rabbit holes: https://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/153587-why-“wylla”-meet-lyanna’s-dornish-doppelganger/

16 hours ago, Bendric Dayne said:

I don't really think people assume there is any mystery to begin with. What makes it mysterious is the fact that Ned doesn't say anything so people speculate. If he said it was Ashara, then people would accept that as the answer and not think of it further. I guess the point I was originally trying to make is that because of Ned's previous connection to Ashara, saying she's the mother would be the most convincing answer to everyone else. Saying Wylla is the mother doesn't necessarily invite too many questions either, but the most skeptical people like Varys and LF might not be satisfied and would maybe inquire further. I mean, is it more likely that Ned Stark tainted his honor on some common woman, or on the most beautiful woman in Westeros? I think the latter option invites less questions. 

Agreed--something is clearly up here. This is not normal for the world of Westeros. Granted, Ned is one who simply keeps silent about painful things. But his vehemence with Cat to silence any gossip about Ashara--that really seems like a pointer that something else is up with the Daynes.

9 hours ago, Buried Treasure said:

Ned did not like lying outright, where possible he would like by omission or give a technically true answer that misdirected.

He did commit to outright saying the lie that Jon was his bastard son. He is less likely to been willing to lie about a woman and defame her.

With Wylla there may have been opportunity to infer a false narrative without telling outright lies. Ned Dayne knew Wylla as Jon's wetnurse, so it is likely they would have been seen together at some point - either by Ned's army in Dorne or back in Kings landing.

All true--except there is no need to give a name. Just say nothing. That's the Ned-ly way. The fact that Wylla is a real person still alive at Starfall--he's still impugning her. Ned isn't keen on such things. If he could just stay silent, he would. For some reason, he gave a name. Not of a fictitious Canadian girlfriend, but of a real, living person.

Something is up.

22 hours ago, Bendric Dayne said:

Doesn't that put Jon's life at risk? Saying Ashara is Jon's mother is the surest and safest way of putting any other rumors to bed and keeping Jon safe.

Depends--note that Starfall tells the same story Ned tells. About a woman that lives there and was the wet nurse to the current Lord of Starfall.

There's a decent chance that Ned is not the only one with something to hide.

1 hour ago, Nevets said:

I suspect it is provable that Ashara is not Jon's mother.  For instance if she were already pregnant when Jon was conceived she couldn't be his mother.  If it could be proven that she can't be Jon's mother, it raises questions and what Ned is hiding.  Better to say nothing and give potential inquirers nothing to work with.

Or: give them something easy to look for. 

If Ned says "Wylla" but others think "Ashara--because they danced at Harrenhal"--then people think they've solved the mystery and look no further.

That would assume Ned would plot like that--which may be a stretch. Ned's go to move seems to be silence when it comes to secrets.

But the fact that he gives any name for Jon's mother. . . that he doesn't just keep silent. That may mean he isn't the only one who his keeping this secret. 

3 minutes ago, LynnS said:

I don't know if he's going to do that.  He's the one who said prophecy would bite your dick off every time.   Didn't Gilly name Mance's son Aemon?  I don't think Dany will go in for child sacrifice, period.   She's more likely to be surprised that a wildling woman would name the boy after Aemon and that Jon would send Aemon and the child out of Mel's reach.   Aemon might become her teacher after the fact anyway.  

I certainly hope so. 

My fear with Dany is that she fluctuates back and forth between civilized and dragon-burning. 

If she thought a sacrifice could help her save all of Westeros, which she thinks belongs to her. . . I could see this.

And getting somewhat back to Black Crow's thread--the echoes/repeats of sacrifice in the North and for the Targs--they repeat and repeat and repeat.

Jon chose duty in Game--sacrificed own needs to be with Robb and instead went back to the Wall.

Dany chose to sacrifice others to get what she wanted--to conquer. I hope she won't see Baby as expendable. But. . . she's an odd duck for me.

On 2/4/2023 at 9:00 AM, Melifeather said:

Arya is a parallel of Lyanna right down to becoming "no one". Lyanna is dead and Arya is pretending to be dead.

What makes me feel even more convinced of Ashara being Wylla are the inverted parallels with "the baby swap" as well as the parallels between Ashara's presumed suicide and Littlefinger pushing Lysa out the Moondoor. 

Agree fully on the first.

Full disclosure: I have a really hard time making the direct inversions work. Really seems like we don't have enough evidence. Rough echoes where we've been told Arya and Sansa are like Lyanna in specific ways? Absolutely. But the idea of set, precise inversions. .  . I really struggle with this.

On 2/4/2023 at 9:00 AM, Melifeather said:

I think Ned brought Ashara to Winterfell with the intention of marrying her after Robert's Rebellion. Jon was born at Winterfell "in the crypts", because his mother is believed to be dead. After Ned was forced into a marriage alliance with the Tullys, Ned returns home to help Ashara return home, but convinces her to leave Jon. This is paralleled later when LC Jon Snow convinces Gilly to leave Monster.

In order to understand why Ashara would want to become Wylla, you have to recall what happened to Lady Lollys Stokeworth. 

Lollys was raped by multiple men - any one of them could be the father of her child

Ashara was said to have "danced" with many men - we know she got pregnant, because Barristan Selmy said she was.

But. . . in Westeros, couples seem to marry at the bride's house--why go to Winterfell?

The Daynes are Dornish--why would they care about even an excessive number of paramours? The Martells clearly don't. Do we have any evidence that the Daynes have a strongly different take on this than the rest of the Dornish?

And "raped by multiple men" is vastly different than having paramours--especially in Dorne. 

On 2/4/2023 at 9:00 AM, Melifeather said:

What were Ashara's marital options after giving birth?

In Dorne? They're fine, given what we see of the Martells.

On 2/4/2023 at 9:00 AM, Melifeather said:

She comes from the ancient, important, noble house of Dayne. I think she came up with the Wylla idea as a way to escape a marriage beneath her station and have the added benefit of remaining in her family home.

But--if she's home, it's really hard to hide this. We see Jeyne pass as Arya because the household of Winterfell is gone and Arya was still pretty young when she left home. Sansa can pass as Alayne because she's never been to the Eyrie--even then, Myranda seems to think something's up. Yes, Harwin doesn't recognize Arya at first, but that's because he thinks she's dead, it's been a while since he saw her, she's a kid and kids change, etc. And he does recognize her eventually.

Given all that, if the full grown, famously drop dead gorgeous Ashara is hiding in her own house, assuming her father didn't conduct a violent purge of the Starfall staff--this really seems hard to pull off.

I think that Wylla Manderly is a much better clue--her green hair.  Her loyalty to the Starks. Her name coming out of literal nowhere for no narrative need. 

And given that we have both Arya and Sansa hiding under aliases and Lyanna clearly tied to both of them repeatedly in the novels: Lyanna hid under an alias. Probably under "Wylla". Likely dying her hair as we see with both Sansa and Wylla Manderly.

But I do think there's a decent chance Ashara is Quaithe.

On 2/4/2023 at 9:00 AM, Melifeather said:

If you think about it, it protects Ned too. His relationship with Ashara could have been seen as fraternizing with the enemy since House Dayne was on the side of the Crown during the Rebellion.

But he fought on Robert's side and was his bestest bud. Really don't think Ned would need any protection. . . 

ETA: That said, I do agree that Ashara may have had to "give up" a baby--if she's Dany's mother (a theory I'm still very partial to) via Rhaegar, that baby would have to be hidden. Just like Mance's baby (if for different reasons). Under another identity. 

So, I think that echo could hold. . . in lots of ways.

On 2/5/2023 at 2:04 AM, LynnS said:

What Gilly, the wallflower, knows or doesn't know is a good question.  Just because she is silent doesn't mean she doesn't know anything; listening and observing what is said around her on or off the page.   

Dany would certainly find out more about Aemon, and how he removed himself from the line of succession in favour of Aegon.  Of course, I wonder what books he was sending to the Citadel and if they included his own journals.  He was a maester and an academic after all.  The idea intrigues me.

I am also intrigued. 

Am also wondering how this might affect/increase Dany's reaction to Young Griff. . . if she reads Rhaegar's take on things, via Aemon's journals. . . 

On 2/4/2023 at 12:42 AM, LynnS said:

Well, no.  I expect these fires she has to light to have some kind of magical component.

On 2/4/2023 at 12:42 AM, LynnS said:

We've been primed by the show to expect Dany to burn the Khals and walk out of the fire unburnt again.  I'm just not sure it will happen that way.  IIRC George said that Drogos funeral pyre was a one-time miraculous event.  So I don't think she was given permanent immunity to fire.  And does she need that when Drogon is likely to attack anyone who threatens her?  

Agreed.

On 2/4/2023 at 12:42 AM, LynnS said:

So I don't know what the fires will be.  However, there must be a reason why George has preserved Aemons body, in alcohol, no less.  Someone has to give him a fiery funeral and I think that's likely to be Dany, if Marwyn does take Aemons remains with him.

I imagine something less mundane and rather spectacular.  A funeral pyre a big as Julius Caesars and pyrotechnics befitting an alcohol soaked body.   He is also kings blood and this would make Melisandres leach burning look like childs play.  I wonder what Dany will see in the flames this time.  Pure speculation, but that's what I imagine.

I'm liking this very much. Am also worried about Mance's baby.

But this is getting me very speculative about Summerhall again--was the idea just to sacrifice one child for the dragon eggs--which is plenty horrifying. 

If so, it could mean Dany under Marwyn's "guidance" could try to up the ante and sacrifice two people with kingsblood at once. . . 

On 2/3/2023 at 3:47 PM, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

Even so, 12 years old is too young to become Sword of the Morning, he is still just a squire at this point. Which is probably why GRRM created Darkstar. 

Might depend on what "worthy" means to the Daynes--12-14 is super young. But we don't fully know their criteria.

Are you thinking Darkstar will be Sword of the Morning? Really seems like he knows the family isn't giving him that role. . . 

5 hours ago, Melifeather said:

I believe that Wylla is Ashara Dayne living in her father's home at Starfall under an assumed identity much like Alayne is actually Sansa, pretending to be Littlefinger's daughter living in his household. 

I'm more partial to the theory that Sansa as Alayne and Arya as all of her aliases is giving us in for about Lyanna, not Ashara. But your scenario has to be on the table.

5 hours ago, Melifeather said:

The Dayne family tree is sparse. Edric Dayne is supposedly the son of an unnamed brother of Ashara and named after Ned Stark. Why is he not worthy of the sword Dawn? If his age wasn't inconveniently a year younger than Sansa's I'd be tempted to believe he's Ned's son.

Or--the Daynes just didn't name a Sword of the Morning that generation. GRRM makes it sound like it's not that unusual for the Daynes to leave the position open for a while. That it's less about someone being "un" worthy and more about someone being super-duper worthy.

5 hours ago, Melifeather said:

If my suspicions that Jon Snow is Ashara and Ned's son, then he could claim the sword Dawn.

1. This is still my biggest hope for Jon's parentage. I don't think it's happening, but I'm not giving up yet!

2. In the World Book and GRRM's SSM, only someone "of House Dayne" can be Sword of the Morning. 

So far in the novels, people are only described as "of a House" if their father is from that house. IE: Even at Riverrun, I don't think Robb was even called "of House Tully." It's a phrase that always seems tied to paternity. And to fathers--not grandfathers, grandmothers, etc.

If that holds, and if Jon is the next Sword of the Morning, his daddy's a Dayne.

5 hours ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

Speaking of which, It's curious that we've never heard about any other Daynes in Kingsguard except Arthur, despite them consistently producing great warriors.

4 hours ago, LynnS said:

Both Jamie and Ned think that Arthur was the finest knight in the realm.  Not just for his skill as a warrior, but for the quality of his character.

4 hours ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

Yes, but it still doesn't make sense for him to be the only Dayne to ever join the Kingsguard.

2 hours ago, LynnS said:

I don't think being selected for the KG is criteria for being the Sword of the Morning.  Likely the other way around.

This is an interesting question.

Not every great house is represented in the KG over time (far as I can tell)--so that may be a factor. 

And we know not every generation has a Sword of the Morning--so that could be a factor, too. Too few Sword of the Mornings were close to the crown.

But if the story of Just Maid is tied to the history of the Sword of the Morning, really could mean that Dawn isn't to be used lightly, let alone regularly in fights. Brine understands this and only uses Oathkeeper rarely.

So--was Arthur making a mistake by agreeing to be in the KG? Is his service to the Dragon part of what helped open the door to the Others' return? 

It would explain why no other Sword of the Morning has served the Dragon--Arthur messed up, probably to help his best friend. 

And it would explain the significance of the fight between Ned and Arthur--not just a Night's King vs. Day's King. But a Night's King trying to do the right thing against a Day's King who screwed up and used Dawn in service to Aerys the Wannabe Dragon.

We may even have an echo of it in Ned's execution: the Stark leave Winterfell to serve the crown and ends up executed with Ice, a sword which is a stand in for an older, lost sword named Ice.

Milkglass Dawn looks a lot like ice. . . . Definitely looks like an Others' sword. 

Both Ned and Arthur served the wrong power--the Game of Thrones--instead of just taking care of the people and the land--the lesson we see Jon learn at the Wall. And so Ned and Arthur both end up executed with their own swords.

4 hours ago, LynnS said:

I'm not sure what to make of Marwyn at this point, but I think he falls into the category of dangerous friend.  I don't think he would use Mance's baby for blood magic, although I think he knows more about it than we've been shown ,and if Qyburn's assessment of him is correct; then he's not unwilling to use it.

Not a pleasant thought. But it's gotta be an option.

4 hours ago, LynnS said:

I think Gilly's value is as an eyewitness to events beyond the Wall and will support what he tells Dany.  Gilly will also create an impression of Jon; having saved the baby and Aemon from Melisandre's machinations.  The sacrificing of children and an elderly relative is not something she will look on with any favor.  A gift of books, essentially from Aemon via Marwyn could be significant.  We don't know what was kept at Castle Blacks library.  

Could be--Dany is certainly more likely to be more sympathetic to a dead Aemon than whenever she runs into Young Griff/Aegon. 

I also wonder how the "Prince that was Promised" revelation will hit Dany--did Gilly hear Aemon say he thought it could be a girl? Might drive Dany further into her sense of entitlement.

4 hours ago, LynnS said:

And Dany will have to light another fire.  Perhaps this will have something to do with Aemons remains.

Wait--so you are thinking the fire is simply to burn a dead relative? Hmmm . . . if that prophecy is even correct (a big if) that seems rather . . . mundane. . . 

15 hours ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

It's commonly accepted in the fandom that the original plan was for Edric Dayne to have Dawn, so I wonder what kind of character he would have become in that scenario. Heroic or villainous?

If this was the original plan, can't see any reason why GRRM would change his mind.

His original plan was to age up the Stark kids to make their stories more adult. When the multi-year gap no longer seemed workable, he then just basically made them into moderate Wonderkids. So, kept to his plan despite their ages.

He's had Ned Dayne in the Appendices since Game--he's had a reason for that kid from the get go. So, if he was planning of Ned Dayne as Sword of the Morning, he'd stick with it.

But I really, really doubt Ned Dayne's the one. I think he's much more likely there to make the necessary connection between Starfall and Winterfell for the reader.  Maybe he'll be the one who transports Dawn to the next Sword of the Morning.

10 hours ago, EggBlue said:

i'm pretty sure his involvement with Beric was to make him people's champion.  I still don't put it past him to eventually wield Dawn.  he is 14 which is the same age as Jon when he got Longclaw.  though,  I personally like for Jon to wield Dawn, if it's going to be important.  it would have to go against some popular theories,  but then it'll respect #1 fantasy rule:  the hero gets the shining blade

Can't see Ned at the wielder. He's Lord of Starfall, a squire, and a narrative help.

But Jon's the one who's been longing all his life to win a greatsword that will give him a family name. And he's the one who has that almost epiphanic moment with the Sword of the Morning when he's spent the previous chapter consistently asking "who am I?"

Theories are just theories--until/unless the next book comes. And then we'll have more theories.

2 hours ago, LynnS said:

I wonder if he feels worthy enough to accept the sword on his own accord.  If Ser Arthur is the standard; the bar is pretty high.  So far, he has been Berics squire for a short time and he has since left the BwB..  Not sure where he is getting his training now.

Might depend on what the Daynes see as "worthy." 

16 hours ago, LynnS said:

I'm under the impression that Marwyn was leaving immediately to take ship for Mereen.  I think he would collect the books Aemon sent to the Citadel, along with Aemon's remains first.  Why not just take the ship and everything on it with him?  Anyway, I think the implications would be interesting.

Ooooh! Very interesting. Are you thinking he might be willing to use Mance's kid? Something like that?

6 minutes ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

Men call him Darkstar, ladies call him irresistible.

Makes you wonder what the Night's King was really like!

3 minutes ago, LynnS said:

I do like the idea, that traditionally, it's the senior ranked women of House Dayne, who choose the Sword of the Morning from the men in the family.  Not sure who is around to make that decision or who is likely to receive it now.

Yup! I like the Matriarchal implications. And I'm pretty sure Allyria is at Starfall--so, she could be the one? Maybe we're seeing narrative hints of that with her betrothal to Beric, the Lightning Lord? His sigil seems like a tie to the Daynes. Could be a stretch. 

3 minutes ago, LynnS said:

I can imagine Sam and Sarella fleeing from the Citadel,to Starfall, ahead of Eurons invasion; and collecting Ned Dayne and the sword, so it doesn't fall into Eurons hands.

Loving this scenario!

3 minutes ago, LynnS said:

What has happened to Gilly btw?  Didn't Sam tell her to stay on the ship until he returned from the Citadel.  I wonder if she left or ended up as cargo on her way to Dany with Marwyn.

Yeah--I think she's still on the ship. What makes you think she's on the way to Dany? I'm missing something.

7 hours ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

Only a Dayne who is deemed worthy can legally claim it, but it doesn’t mean that someone else can’t steal it. 

3 hours ago, EggBlue said:

please! Dawn wouldn't work for someone unworthy, it'll be just like an ordinary sword.. say, like the elder wand!

3 hours ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

But perhaps it could work for someone who is of the night? The man, the myth, the legend.

Darkstar could be an excellent catalyst--give him something important to do narratively--stealing that sword. Making a big mess. Moving stuff about.

But I agree that he's unlikely to be the Sword of the Morning, being "Of the douchebag-filled night."

And I think he may also be a narrative marker: the Night's King/Sword of the Evening covets Dawn. May be showing us what "the Battle for Dawn" really was. . . 

2 hours ago, alienarea said:

The White Walkers rose to go to Starfall to claim what's theirs?

Could be. Or just want Westeros back--kinda depends on what the Others want. If they hate living things as Old Nan says, they'd want free rein.

Might also be the Night's King who wants the sword back--if Black Crow is right and he's coming back, dude would want his sword.

4 hours ago, LynnS said:

Yes he said that and didn't he also say that someone who is not a Dayne could claim the sword? 

According to this SSM, it's only a Dayne.

“George said the Sword of the Morning is always a member of House Dayne, someone who is deemed worthy of wielding Dawn as decided within the House, that whoever it is would have to earn the right to wield it.” http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/US_Signing_Tour_Albuquerque_NM

4 hours ago, LynnS said:

I wonder how the Dayne's choose who is worthy.  Maybe the sword chooses who is worthy?  I'm thinking of the potential magical aspects.  So perhaps a Dayne like Ser Arthur has the necessary virtues for House Dayne to bestow it; but I wonder about accessing its real power - its  potential as a sword of light.  

I like the idea of the sword choosing worthiness--really seems like there has to be some magic to it.

There's also the story of Just Maid, where it's bestowed by a woman--but then only used by Galladon against worthy opponents. Seems like that might be part of the criteria for Dawn? And maybe we're seeing another version of that with Brienne and how careful she is with Oathkeeper.

If that "care" is part of it, I', wondering if Arthur went too far in using Dawn . . . 

And its power for light: I'm still thinking Dawn burns red at the right moment with the right wielder. 

All the stories of how a magic sword is magic in the novels--the main one is Lightbringer--and the story is awful. It's probably wishful thinking, but I'm hoping the story of Just Maid is closer to the "real" story about the sword that brings light. 

3 hours ago, EggBlue said:

Daynes already have more than enough reasons to hate Ned. If he'd taken Dawn too, I can't imagine what makes them name their heir after him.

Yup! It can't be the fact that Ned returned the sword that makes them like him so much.

Something else is up.

I've got theories--but one way or another, there's a bunch of the story missing about why Ned regrets Arthur's death so much (according to Bran)--and why the Daynes admire Ned so much that the current Lord of Starfall thinks it's cool that he's milk brothers with the Bastard of Winterfell.

3 hours ago, alienarea said:

If Dawn is the sword of the Night King, maybe Ned picking it up after defeating Arthur Dayne triggered the rise of the White Walkers?

Yup! Though I'd say it's more than "picking it up." A Night's King descendant killed the Day's King descendant. Note that when Ned fights Arthur (the last one he sees before the fight in his dream) the blue rose petals that fly are "blue as the eyes of death."

Far as I can tell, that's the only time something is compared to the Wights'/Others' eyes anywhere in the novels.

Really think that was a tipping point--Night's King wasn't supposed to win back the sword. Ned's taking it to Starfall--I do wonder what effect it had that the Night's King's descendant gave the sword back to the Day's King's family.

Though I also think there's a decent chance Arthur (or any Sword of the Morning) really shouldn't have been using Dawn in service to the Dragon.

3 hours ago, alienarea said:

And that is what Mance will do in the crypts - remove Dawn from the Night's King buried there and thus ending the White Walkers?

Well, as stated above, GRRM is really clear--Dawn waits at Starfall. So, not in crypt.

Also, GRRM has made it really clear--House Dayne chooses a worthy Dayne to bestow the sword on. If there isn't a current worthy Dayne, they just wait for the next generation. And if a chosen Dayne becomes unworthy, he's supposed to return it--World Book has a story of a Sword of the Evening giving up Dawn.

So, maybe Dawn will be stolen. But really, really think GRRM is waiting to get it to a "worthy Dayne." Most likely Jon.

And that could restore the balance. 

At least for a while.

9 hours ago, Aehole targaryen said:

I've noticed you guys have generated a Gergor of content. It will take me a few years to catch up, so sorry if I repeat old topics that have been discussed to death.

Ha! No need to apologize--the threads go all over. No need to re-read them all.

9 hours ago, Aehole targaryen said:

Any heresies on House Dayne?

Well--I personally have a lot of interest in the Daynes, but I'm not sure how popular they are on Heresy.

But some ideas I've seen floated:

The Daynes and the Starks are connected: the Daynes being tied to the Sword of the Morning, the Starks being tied to the Night's King who was thrown down.

A Dayne/Sword of the Morning was the "brother" (either by blood or a "brother" of the Watch) who threw down the Night's King.

Dawn is the Night's King sword, taken from him when he abused his power, then taken south to protect it from misuse. That would explain how the Daynes bestow Dawn only on a worthy Dayne. And it would explain why GRRM brings in the story of Galladon of Morne and his sword Just Maid.

I'm sure there are others--but these are at least a few I've seen for a while.

1 hour ago, Black Crow said:

Coming from Scotland and currently living in Northumberland I've always read Winterfell as a noun - Vinterfed if you prefer, but the thought occurs to me, reading this post, that the Stark possession of Winterfell may be balanced by the Targaryen possession of Summerhall  

37 minutes ago, Aehole targaryen said:

I'm sure that plays a part, but Summerhall was built by the Targaryens, right? 100-120 years before A Game of Thrones. A fair bit younger than Winterfell. But the presumed ritual that went wrong there wraps up the balance nicely.

Agreed with all of the above.

But it's not just that the ritual went wrong--the Targs are parvenues per se. They never were part of the balance of Westeros to begin with.

They are actively messing with Westeros. Burning. Messing with the Wall. Basing the Kingsguard off the Watch--and potentially pulling attention away from the importance of the Watch. Even as the Stranger statue in Dragonstone seems to potentially point to the Targs' fear of the northern skinchangers.

Seems like "Summerhall" may be another bit of arrogant Targ puffery, believing they can change everything. And the the ritual and its failure seem driven by that arrogance.

But the balance goes back far, far further. And it can't be solved with Targ conquering. Let alone dragons.

2 hours ago, HugorHell said:

Of course.  And if the family tree had ever been meant solely for him, it would obviously have remained solely for him and would not have been shared with anyone at all. 

Does the family tree say that Jon is Ned's bastard? I bet it does.

1 hour ago, The Hidden Dragon said:

That is an excellent question!  The Stark family tree in TWOIAF does show Jon as Ned's bastard, although it lists the mother as Unknown.  I wonder if Ran could comment on whether the family tree he saw lists Jon as Ned's bastard and the name of Jon's mother.  I suspect not.

I asked a while ago, but the answer I got back--didn't say one way or another. No hint at all.

That said, my question was wordy, so he may not have known exactly what I was asking. I decided not to pester him.

But given all the rest of the stuff in the app, I'd be very surprised if the family tree he saw wasn't like all the other trees: in-world, not objective, reality.

2 hours ago, HugorHell said:

So for instance the app says Jon has five siblings: Robb, Sansa, Arya, Bran, Rickon.  That is what is known to the public. 

But of course, all five of those statements are false if R+L=J.  The app and R+L=J thus contradict each other, and those among us who believe R+L=J are already dismissing what the app says, because there is no other logical choice if we are going to believe R+L=J. 

So we cannot then say that different information in the app is evidence in support of our fan theories.  We have already, in dismissing Jon's sibling info, admitted that app information is only evidence in support of what people in Westeros "know."  Which isn't the same thing as fan theories at all.

Yup. Martin's making it clear: we have to wait for the next books (grumble).

47 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

I guess my main issue with using the app or even the SSM as evidence of events that have no been addressed in the books is that it seems to go against the fundamental nature of George’s story.  There is no omniscient narrator.  Everything we learn is through the lens of a POV character.  And with this the reader is given the limitations of what the character actually knows as opposed to what the character has been told, and we even have to be concerned with the character’s own biases and blind spots.  Is the character always truthful with themselves?  

The app serves as an omniscient narrator in a way, setting forth some things as unassailable fact when the story itself intentionally fails to do so.

Agreed--though I'd add the app only serves this way if we (the readers) let ourselves forget how Martin sets up his world. When we remember that, the omniscience goes away.

23 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

If Lyanna was at Starfall, I think the sequence is:

1.  Ned learns from some source that Lyanna gave birth at Starfall, and that Lyanna's child was taken from her to the tower of joy. 

2.  Ned travels with a guide who knows the location of the tower of joy.  I would guess Howland.

3.  Ned rescues Jon from the tower of joy and brings Jon back to Starfall to be reunited with Lyanna.  Returning Dawn was a cover story for the reason for his trip to Starfall.

4.  The death bed scene with Lyanna occurred after Ned arrived at Starfall with Jon.

Maybe--are you thinking this goes along with the "Jon was intended to be a sacrifice/second Summerhall" theory?

23 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

No extra step, no double travel, and it explains why Ned would take such a dangerous trip through enemy territory with a baby in tow, as opposed to getting the babe to safety and then sending Dawn back to Starfall via ship.  

It also does away with the very ackward scenario of Ned travelling a great distance through the mountains carrying his dead sister.

Really the "return of Dawn" makes no sense.  It doesn't rise to a level of importance for Ned to travel through the Mountains with a baby and with a dead sister.  Dawn could have always been sent with a formal peace party at a later date.

On this--yes. Though I'd add that if all Ned has is Dawn, the trip still makes sense: he'd going to Starfall for his sister.

4 minutes ago, lehutin said:

I don't get this Lyanna-was-at-Starfall thing. From what I got out of page 23,

1. Lyanna gave birth to Jon at Starfall,
2. the loyalist Kingsguard took Jon to the Tower of Joy,
3. Ned met and consoled a dying Lyanna at Starfall,
4. Ned traveled to the Tower of Joy with his companions and killed the loyalist Kingsguard,
5. Ned went back to Starfall to return Dawn.

Yeah--that seems kinda wacky to me, too.

If Lyanna and Jon were at Starfall, pretty sure they stayed at Starfall. Instead, the KG rode out to meet Ned and Co. at a neutral location (the toj) away from the people they were actually defending. Like Jon, like Duncan, etc. Because they can't fight Ned's whole army, so they lure him to a parlay with a smaller force.

Ned wins. Then goes to Starfall with Dawn, finding Lyanna and Jon there.

4 minutes ago, lehutin said:

If so, it seems like an unnecessary complication to this:

1. Lyanna gave birth to Jon at the Tower of Joy,
2. Ned traveled to the Tower of Joy with his companions and killed the loyalist Kingsguard,
3. Ned met and consoled a dying Lyanna,
4. Ned went to Starfall to return Dawn.

There's an extra step and a double travel that has no purpose. Do some people just want the Daynes to be more involved in the story?

I agree that the scenario you cited seems . . . excessive.

But are there hints that Lyanna was at Starfall? That the Daynes are important and know something about Jon? Yes.

We need to next book to sort it out.