Angel Eyes

42 minutes ago, Darth Sidious said:

Dany will have allies in the west before she comes. The people will have grown tired of the the Lannisters in the south. People will worry when the Others and their Stark servants control the north. Westeros will reach out to Dany and beg for help. Supplies will have to be brought from the East. Which Braavos, Free Volantis, and her followers will be happy to provide. 

Daenerys has to make it out of the Dothraki Sea first, and that's if she doesn't die from the infection she has.

14 hours ago, sifth said:

Truth be told, I’m wondering how the people in the North haven’t run out of food yet. The was George describes the snows in the 5th book, makes it almost impossible to get new food.

That's an interesting logistical question: how does a land where seasons can last years supply itself?

39 minutes ago, Here's Looking At You, Kid said:

Queen Daenerys Targaryen will arrive in Westeros with a professional army and a large fleet of ships.  They will be prepared ahead of time.  The supply chain is easy because the Narrow Sea is short in distance.  It won't be her army that will be starving for food.  It will be the Westerosi who will be boiling their leather boots for soup.  And the North will be eating each other before Daenerys arrives. The North will have resored to cannibalism by then.   Food will be easier to procure from Essos because of the size of the landmass.  

 

Right, a professional army which is dwindling by the day with a supply line that's had its pillar and stones cut out in more ways than one. It's also a supply line that Daenerys would be loath to reopen.  Prepared ahead of time? Daenerys hasn't gotten a foot in the Dothraki let alone the Free Cities and they don't really get a foot in Westeros either. Size of the landmass? Most of that is the Dothraki Sea and the Red Waste, and we already know how much trouble Daenerys had with finding sustenance for a small group.

6 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

This is a massive issue for her potential invasion and I don't really see how she can resolve it.

1. There is not enough food left in Westeros for Daenerys to supply her army via foraging/using reserves. It is pointed out numerous times that the food supplies remaining in Westeros are inadequate to feed everyone already there, so there is no way they can feed even more people coming later. This issue will be compounded by the size of the army Daenerys is aiming to bring. Not to mention all the difficulties that come with a regular winter. Then we have to factor in that it will probably be supernaturally cold, icy etc.

2. Daenerys cannot just ship food from Essos in as some people have suggested. First of all, there is a food shortage in all the territories she currently controls as well. Secondly, even is we assume she takes control of territories that have food/are growing food, she cannot just start taking food from there to feed a large army without depriving people living there of food, not to mention the logistics involved in shipping it over. And unless the army is near a port it will then need to be transported overland in the winter conditions etc.

3. How she is supposed to feed all the horses the Dothraki will be bringing? Where is the fodder going to come from?

So it looks like either Daenerys will have to bring a much smaller army, or her army will starve, or she'll have to make loads of other people starve so her army doesn't starve.

3. Assuming the Dothraki will want to come.

1 hour ago, House Cambodia said:

Oh yeah, JonCon to turn Cercei into Lady Stoneheart II.

I think that some of Daenerys' actions may be Jon Connington's in the book. We know that greyscale causes great damage to the brain like the Stone Men, so Connington may either behave more viciously due to the greyscale affecting his mind or push for quicker (and therefore more ruthless) solutions before the greyscale takes over out of desperation.

On 4/15/2024 at 11:09 AM, House Cambodia said:

I also won't be surprised if the show gets it half-right, albeit without the quality.

I can see Daenerys prioritising coming to Jon's aid and trying to stop The Others simply because it's the right decision, and she's a decent person. Furthermore, I can see Cercei promising to send troops from KL and not delivering. On the other hand, it would be quite tasty if the southern troops are tied up in a bitter civil war between Cercei and Aegon, but I suspect the timing is out and the battle for KL will be resolved before The Others get to Winterfell.

The big divergence from the show will be that Winterfell doesn't defeat the global existential threat of the Others with a quick poke from a kid. The combined army of the North and it's allies, dragons, Dothraki, Unsullied et al., should lose that battle and have to fall back towards KL, where Dany will have to confront Cercei or Aegon, which should be a proper dramatic encounter given the background of the confrontation.

Not to mention a possible greyscale plague.

On 10/11/2023 at 10:33 AM, Seams said:

 

Perhaps Tywin gave Tysha to the horses. Being Mr. Hand and all.

On 2/23/2024 at 12:33 PM, sifth said:

I would have switched up the missions he gave Oberyn and Quentyn. I’d send the strong handsome guy, who knows the east and has connections there to meet with Dany and my ignorant son who looks like a frog to KL, so my enemies think Dorne is weak. 

If there's anything Oberyn understood, it was image politics. In his party to King's Landing he brings lords, ladies, and heirs from all across Dorne, who had interests in the political games of Westeros and whose reputations dwarfed Tyrion's own party.

Contrast Quentyn's green band of not-so-merry men who were pretty much all from Yronwood: Cletus, Archibald, Gerris Drinkwater, the dead maester, and pretty much showed that the only one supporting Doran was House Yronwood.

2 hours ago, SeanF said:

If I was betrothing my daughter to Viserys, I'd have channelled a lot of money to my agents in the East, and/or the Iron Bank, to ensure that Dany and Viserys were well-guarded, and well-guided, and that they enjoyed a standard of living appropriate to their station. Allowing my daughter's intended husband to be mocked as "the beggar king" is pretty stupid.

Then, I'd be looking for every opportunity to undermine the rule of King Robert.  So, yes, I'd have to swallow whatever cock and bull story that Jon Arryn told me, about the deaths of Elia and her children, but I'd be looking to gradually build up Dornish military strength.  I'd be reaching out to groups like the Golden Company to sound them out about the possibility of an invasion.

I'd want to put out feelers to the Tyrells, and the other Targaryen loyalists, about the prospects of backing a restoration.  I'd also be reaching out to the Ironborn, suggesting backing for their indpendence, and seizing all the land they wished in the West, in return for the aid of their fleet, in due course.

I've always wondered what sort of cock and bull story Jon Arryn cooked up, including the return of bones, because we all know returning bones always reduces hostilities.

As far as Viserys and Arianne was concerned, I've also wondered why Doran gave up on him so early, unless this was a retcon by GRRM.

A.) If starting after Robert's Rebellion, start building up forces after losses taken during the war. Keep a watch on Viserys and Daenerys Targaryen, the former is supposed to be my goodson after all, wouldn't want him to a liability. If fostering him is not an option, arrange for my daughter Arianne to meet him overseas at the most and start up correspondence at the least.

A lot of what I would do is detailed in this blog post.

https://warsandpoliticsoficeandfire.wordpress.com/2016/03/11/the-windblown-grass-doran-martell/

33 minutes ago, astarkchoice said:

1 id disgaree there it strikes me more dany is specificaly describing the 1st time he connects in graphic detail, the noise and sparks image as the bloodrider begins  hits home as jorahs defence is passed.

Like any real fight or sparring  itl begin with some feints and movement to disguise the 1st real blow when it comes, life and death on the line so  thats expected. qotho spins the blade above his head and it describes jorah goes in on the offensive..for what it was worth.

2 come on now jorah is a pretty good knight..just not elite as his early showings at pkye and the tourney he won hinted he  could be but hes from a tougher than normal great  house and has spent  part of his life chasing any little border clash that could help him keep his golddigging harpy 1st wife!

3 theres plenty of variation of the draw weights bur recurve>>standard  ..and of course the advantage of being a horse archer is unlike regualr archers you can ride very close  to infantry (or a knight if you avoid their lance ) and loose. When you see grown  men who took it up in their 30s onwards bullseyeing tennisballs or loosing 3- 4 shots in a single gallop pass it boggles the mind the mind what cordinated  1000s of  them practiced from birth could do!

 

4 the book is a must read for that period and meticulously researched, they started as just anther largely horse archer tribe who co-opted heavy cavalry centric tribes into their ranks by victory and diplomacy where others had failed.... extra draw weight bows and loosing a few dozen  metres or so closer than their similar rivals gave them wins that others   couldnt achieve with weaker bows and more nervous (longer range)  shooting.

5 part of it is georges handwaving of siege warfare..which is a facinating subject.

 

 

6 well as iv said they COULD be its just it requires all the right conditions (open non muckyfield)  AND them to be super skillful   as individuals  AND have teamwork wayyyy  beyond the vastly superior nomads we discussed  AND be willing to eat heavy casulties to win!!! 

OR for  battle hardened westerosi infantry to suddenly become cowards and flee, men who have eaten  volleys of longbow arc/ballistic shots and stood!

2. Second wife; his first one was a Glover who died.

I remember watching The Last Samurai (the one with Tom Cruise not Lance Henriksen) and started thinking about how a force like the Dothraki, a culture based on the art of war for centuries but with few resources, could fare against a better-equipped foe. In the first battle, the Japanese soldiers, under Algren's command, are ill-trained and prone to panic, even with Algren and Gant. During this battle there don't seem to be any officers aside from Colonel Bagley (who's at the rear), General Hasegawa, Algren, Gant, and an unnamed junior officer who shows up later. Bagley sees the Samurai as savages, but Algren counters that their focus for the last thousand years has been war. The Samurai, led by Katsumoto, take advantage of a fog bank and attack the troops in a forest, which limits their ability to shoot straight. And the soldiers are afraid of the Samurai, who'd once held power of life and death over them. Cue near-immediate rout with most of the (very few) Samurai casualties personally inflicted by Algren and Gant (who is killed), while Hasegawa commits seppuku.

In the final battle, Bagley, now directly subordinate to the Emperor's advisor Omura on the battlefield, with better-trained troops, more time to prepare, and more firepower, is wise to how the Samurai operate and starts off with a howitzer barrage. The Samurai, now advised by Algren, retreat and Bagley is hesitant, but Omura, who is a)overconfident, b) has no experience, and c) dismissive of the Samurai, overrules him and orders the bulk of the army to attack... which plays right into the Samurai's hands as the troops, now in range of arrow fire, get trapped by flammable mines. Cue a brutal melee. However this time there's enough soldiers that the Samurai are ground down to only a few dozen. Katsumoto, who knew defeat was inevitable, orders a suicidal charge that breaks through the infantry lines; Algren kills Bagley, but the charge is silenced by Gatling guns. Katsumoto commits seppuku with Algren's help.

However, Katsumoto never actually meant to win, but to teach his pupil the Emperor that the values that Katsumoto held dear had a place in Japanese society. In contrast, Omura's inexperience in battle (he is a businessman) and general dismissive behavior towards the Samurai made the battle closer than it should have been, and played right into Katsumoto's hands.

While the tactics themselves are somewhat suspect, it's in line with the storytelling and characters. On the other hand, would the Dothraki be smart enough to use such means to their advantage?

On 2/17/2024 at 4:49 AM, astarkchoice said:

The  squires are too young to be fully infected by the frey toxicity yet and some the much older ones probably were brought up when old walder was less bitter and there was less freys thus less cutthroat competition.

Tell that to Little Walder who started hanging round with Ramsay.

18 hours ago, Potsk said:

And that requires to swear in the name of the Seven, so still related to that religion

Does it? Rodrik Cassel is a Ser but he isn't explicitly stated to follow the Seven.

2 hours ago, H Wadsworth Longfellow said:

 

Jon is the return of the Night's King.  I am sure there have been awful commanders in the past but I agree about Jon causing the most harm because of what he has done.  Getting himself into conflict with the Boltons is the cause of the coming fall of the Night's Watch.  Some of the mistakes was going to happen because Jon was not good at leading.  He was too prejudiced and too emotionally attached to Arya and Robb.  He was also not the brightest in the brains area. 

The Dothraki will serve Daenerys and redeem themselves.  The khalasars will soon be hers as they have never been Drogo's.  The purpose of the khalasars is to bring down the slave trade and by doing so, earn their redemption. 

The Watch has been failing and falling for years.

And how will the Dothraki become part of Daenerys' army? It was pretty clear what was going to happen to her with Drogo's death. Unless Daenerys goes the show's route where she burns all the Khals...

8 hours ago, astarkchoice said:

It all depends claims  alone are no use without power, its as varys said its all down to interpretation.

Now she has a claim to winterfell and we know there are 2 forces(manderly and stannis) who could put her there for their own ends.

The riverlands are well tied up as frey- lannister BUT if the freys of the twins get.a. red wedding 2.0 and blackfish can sneak a force into riverrun or save edmure then the extra political weight of a tully stark could swing that region...esp if backed by the overlord of the riverlands and lorf of harrenhall AND/OR  backed by the valelords!

The westerlands her claim is so weak as to virtualy not exist ..she is considered complicit in the murder of joff and tywin with tyrion , no f-ing way the lords of westerlands let her ever take casterly rock esp when lannisport is infested with lannisters

Would Winterfell want her? Several of the lords know Robb wrote her off.

6 hours ago, astarkchoice said:

Could be he was a knight of renowned skill , jorah managed to punch above his weight as his being almost 1st in at pyke and his victory at the tourney after hinted hed be an elite knight thus a good guy to bring into the family as long as there were plenty of other kids to marry off for strong house alliances

If he was renowned, how come that isn't mentioned?

So in the Strange Marriages thread, I was intrigued by one particular marriage between Branda Stark, elder daughter of Rodrik Stark, and Harrold Rogers of the Stormlands. Simply put, Harrold Rogers is/was a mere knight, several degrees below a lordship of any kind (and on the other side of the country to boot). How come the Starks were content with marrying Branda to a knight? If Branda were unmarried, why wasn't she flung at Rickard, whom her sister Lyarra married?

On 2/11/2024 at 3:59 PM, Moiraine Sedai said:

Cat would have stayed dead. The dead should stay dead.

Take it up with GRRM; he's the one who wanted to subvert expectations about characters coming back from the dead.

1 minute ago, James Steller said:

That makes sense. Though is it actually said he doesn’t take part in the fighting during his first rebellion? 

He's never described as doing any fighting and since Westeros is a society that prides martial ability in its leaders, especially one like the Ironborn, I would think it would have been mentioned.

So it's mentioned that Balon Greyjoy was a fierce and fearless raider in his youth, but he doesn't do much during his rebellions, just sits back on Pyke and lets his brothers and children do the fighting. He's also mentioned to have a stoop in his shoulder. Now there doesn't seem to be much opportunity for reaving and warfare during Balon's youth; judging by the calculations on the wiki he would have been no more than a child during the War of the Ninepenny Kings and not even in his teens if he participated in Quellon's raids on Faircastle (Tytos Lannister, who was Lord of Casterly Rock at the time, died in 267 where Balon would have been 12 at the most). That leaves Robert's Rebellion where Lord Quellon was killed at the Mander and Balon led the retreat back to Pyke to claim the Seastone Chair. So is it possible that Balon suffered a shoulder injury during the Battle at the Mander which prevents him from fighting (and somehow he isn't usurped)?

Dany's prospects aren't looking too good; she's stuck in the Dothraki Sea puking one way and excreting green slime the other, with a band of Dothraki bearing down on her, suffering visions that tell her "Dragons plant no trees", advice that she's likely to follow.

8 hours ago, Hippocras said:

Nice catch.

A really very very large number of characters still alive would need to die before he would ever be conceivably named King, so that path seems unlikely, even if the Egg association and the wordplay might suggest it.

I think it is more likely he will end up in charge of Casterly Rock. Why? Well either his backstory is entirely truthful and he has key female line Lannister ancestry, or the theory that he is Tyrion’s son by Tysha turns out true. In that case, Tyrion would legitimize him and name him heir.

This second version of course would mean he is not really a Payne at all (unless Tysha was part Payne) and was simply raised as a Payne because Tywin asked it of them. Tywin does take care of Lannister children, including bastards, and any child of Tysha’s (if Tyrion’s and not fathered by one of the guards) was not actually a bastard.

So this would not answer the questions here surrounding House Pain (misspelling intentional) but those questions may be answered in other ways. Meanwhile the coins on the sigil may be a double reference, in part, to the coins paid to Tysha for each guard, and the fact that Illyn Payne was the head of the household guard at the time of Tysha’s mistreatment.

I thought it says in-text that Ilyn Payne was appointed the King's Justice just after Robert's Rebellion as a "wedding present" from Tywin.

24 minutes ago, Ran said:

It's explained by the fact that he was a great reaver in his youth, and was only in decline now.

He had the most significant Drowned Priest and the Lord Captain of the Iron Fleet as his brothers who were extremely faithful to him, and Victarion was not a man people were willing to cross (at least not until Euron came around). 

 

Balon's mentioned as having a stoop in his shoulder; could he have suffered that at the Battle of the Mander in Robert's Rebellion since he doesn't do any fighting during either time the Greyjoys rebel under his rule?

29 minutes ago, astarkchoice said:

Id say once the north was cut off he assumed robb would be finished by the lannisters (later lannister-tyrells) to the rear if they tried to take moat cailin by force, even with its rep of being never taken  from the south it doesnt mean history cant be made..but that doesnt mean his whole ironborn  force has to sit there(nor could they supplywise). Id say its more.grmm.forgot about them.otherwise theyd been taking coastal forts and castles piecemeal before they can be reinforced.

 

Like how Dany forgot about the Iron Fleet?