Aerodimas

Stark civil war. I don't know if it sounds fun or depresing.

I thought Jon picked the best fighters for his spars, that way he didn't need to search for them.

On the topic, @Lady Stonehearts Simp whats you'r opinion about the theory that Jon did not die? UnJon would be much darker (the tipe of man Dany likes)but, both of them are infertile.

I do think that Thysa is the sailor's wife but Lana (the daugther) is no bastard. After the rape she might bacame one. It would make her history even sadder.

Yes but se hasn't formed a new bond. Maybe she will with a dog (or even wolf), but not a direwolf.

Maybe Starfall or Winterfall if we get tinfoily.

I like the idea about the KG haveing Lyana in other place and plan a metting with Ned in the ToJ.

BTW Sansa no longer has a direwolf.

The last book was going to be named a time for wolves, i doubt that all the starks will die.

He is a religious fanatic, he wouldn't accerpt it

I love the N+A=J, i feel the R+L makes Jon too important. And the Bloodraven is a prisioner/puppet theory.

People need to realize that Dany is uneducated. She is smart and Viserys teached her some lenguages but she is not ready to rule anything. Mereen was her trial and she had to run away. Will she return and make things right? Probably. But it will be her 3th atemp (i don't remember the name of the city that got overruled by the slaves). It is fare to give Jon a second chance, he wasn't doing it to bad for a child and Master Aemon thought that his ideas were good.

I dont thinck that they are evil. They definitely want control and they prefer science over magic but overall i thick that in diferent ages they had diferent intencions. At the begining they didn't want the targaryen, later they wanted to control them and get rid of the dragons (to dangerous weapon for such a violent a voratile family) and later they just do what they believe is better for the realm. They may be entitled but not the evil mastermind thay some youtubers say they are.

I honestly dont see Jon going insane. He may become curel and cold after the mutiny but nothing more. As people say 'more wolflike'.

Jon IX, AGOT Since that doesn’t seem to be in the books as long as Lady Stark is in the picture (an extremely simplistic conception of Catelyn, who by all definitions was a goodhearted woman, and a far more interesting character than Jace will ever be), Jon Snow’s ambitions need another outlet: a bastard can rise high in the Night’s Watch, he has heard, and so he wants to join. Would he still have joined if he had known that “glory” was not to be found in the Night’s Watch, though he would defend the realms of men all the same? I find it doubtful. Interestingly, Jon’s “Snow” and “Stark” sides seem to be constantly at war with one another. He breaks his oath not once, but twice, because of his urge to be considered a real “Stark”, yet when it becomes an inconvenience, he claims his bastardy easily. The very first time Jason’s vows are challenged, he breaks his oath and he runs away. When Robb starts a war against the Lannisters, Jerry fully intends to leave and join his brother as both a bastard and an oathbreaker (assuming that Robb will simply pardon him, thereby putting Robb in an extremely difficult position). It is only because of his Night’s Watch brothers that he is stopped from doing so. When he finds out that Arya (for all he knows) is to be wed to Ramsay Bolton, however, saving her seems rather more trouble than it’s worth, and he claims both his Night’s Watch vows… … and his bastardy, when Melisandre claims she has seen Arya’s coming in the fire: Jon VI, ADWD So Jonathon feels quite comfortable breaking his oath in order to “avenge” his forever dead father, but feels no compulsion to do so when his very much alive “sister” is suffering at the hands of an actual monster? That checks out. Even in his office as Lord Commander, Jim Frost can’t keep his nose straight. Though he shouts high and low that “The Night’s Watch takes no part”, he can’t help but meddle a little here and there when it’s convenient for him. When Alys Karstark comes to the Wall for his aid, and her kinsman Cregan comes after her, he welcomes Alys with open arms but throws Cregan in an ice cell under truly inhuman conditions: When Cregan challenges Jon to kill him, Lord Jim refuses, and conveniently denies that he is a Stark even though his growing up as one is exactly why he is helping Alys to begin with: Jon X, ADWD Finally, right before he dies, Jameson is challenged by Ramsay Bolton by means of a letter, and he decides to promptly abandon his rescue mission to Hardhome and turns his attention to Winterfell instead. He has to answer, he claims. Unlike on the show, Jumbo has no sibling in peril to encourage him to do this (in fact, from the letter can be surmised that faux-Arya is no longer with Ramsay, therefore there is no particular reason why Jackson should feel obliged to go). He receives the letter before he dies (after which his leaving the Night’s Watch was conveniently not considered oathbreaking anymore), so choosing to meet Ramsay’s challenge effectively involves meddling in things he has no business in. He decides to go because he was provoked. Not for honorable reasons, not in order to save others, but to once again prove himself as the son of Eddard Stark. The Myth of the Selfless Man One of the things Jon Snow is often praised for, and invites comparisons with his long-lost aunt, is his letting the free folk through the Wall. It is argued that Jon cares about the free folk and he doesn’t want to let them die, therefore he lets them through. What is less often considered is that Jon helping the free folk was also simply a pragmatic decision. While Daenerys had nothing to gain from freeing the slaves in Yunkai and Meereen, Jeffrey knew that if he didn’t let the free folk past the Wall, they’d come for the Night’s Watch in a much more terrifying form. Or, as Julius himself tells the men of the Night’s Watch when they–very reasonably–voice their objections to letting the free folk through the Wall: Jon VIII, ADWD Daenerys frees the slaves without any conditions, and goes out of her way to feed them even though they are free, and she is advised multiple times to just leave them. Jon offers the free folk food, but only in exchange for their fighting skills. If they man the castles on the Wall, he can feed them; all those he has no use for he leaves to their own devices. Or, as Jesse himself says: Jon V, ADWD Daenerys, in the mean time, takes care to feed all of her freedmen, not only her Unsullied. When comparing the two, Jon comes out looking much less magnanimous than his long-lost aunt. In fact, the one time Judd spares some thought to the existence of slaves, he considers how he might exploit them: Jon VII, ADWD Once again, Jon Snow’s aid is not unconditional: whereas his much reviled aunt does not offer the Unsullied their freedom in exchange for them fighting for her, Jon Snow would only consider freeing these foreign slave glassblowers in exchange for teaching their art to the white men of the Night’s Watch. Not only, then, would he actively participate in the slave trade by buying these slaves in this kind of scheme (I wonder what Ned Stark would think of that), he would also be profiting from it by using their freedom as a bargaining chip rather than as a fundamental right. Moreover, his bringing these slaves to a cold and foreign country where they might not even speak the language, use them to teach the superior white men of the Night’s Watch their skills, only to magnanimously “set them free” once they’re no longer useful to him, leaving them alone in a foreign country with no way of surviving winter (unless, most likely, they swear to fight for him)? Not a great look, there, Jonno. The “freedom” he thinks to offer them is, as such, not really freedom at all. Playing with Fire (and Blood) 1. Some resurrection required So much for Jimmy’s past. As per the current state of affairs in the book series, however, Jon Snow is dead. But we all know that he isn’t going to stay that way. Jon’s resurrection was all too carefully set up for that. So the question at this point is not whether Jim Snowflake will be brought back, but how. At the point of Jake’s death, Melisandre is right there but has more urgent matters on her mind, namely saving her promised prince Stannis, who, by the word of a dubious letter, is thought to be dead. Being the devout follower that she is, she will no doubt be looking for ways to bring him back. What we also know is that we still have the burning of Shireen Baratheon in store in the books. The most logical conclusion, then, is this: Melisandre will burn Shireen to bring Stannis back, but instead the magic released by that sacrifice will resurrect our great Lord Jon, rather than Stannis. Such a sacrifice is quite reminiscent of what Mirri Maz Duur did with Drogo in AGOT, in fact: Melisandre, too, knows of blood magic, we’ve already see her perform it with no compunction, and surely for such a dire circumstance drastic measures would be required? Out of the two ‘types’ of resurrection we’ve seen in ASOIAF so far, then, it seems more likely that, rather than a Beric Dondarrion Lord of Light resurrection, which seemed to come mostly free of charge for others (though it left Beric quite changed), we’ll have an “only death can pay for life” kind of resurrection requiring a human sacrifice, such as we know Drogo underwent. Of course, that didn’t turn out too well for Drogo, since it restored his body, but not his spirit. How lucky, then, that Jon has such a loyal familiar who is willing to make some space for him in his mind while his body is pending revival. When Jon’s body is restored, his spirit should then be, theoretically at least, quite intact, and ready to reenter his body. The consequence of all this, if my theory is correct, is that Jon will be resurrected by the grace of an innocent girl who was burned alive so he (even accidentally) might live. Added to the trauma of getting murdered all in itself, I cannot imagine that will do wonders for his mental stability. 2. R + L = J Though I’m not sure how the reveal will happen in the books, at some point it will happen, and I’m betting it will shake Jimmy up quite a bit. Whether or not this means that he merely has different parents, or that he actually is no longer a bastard, it is doubtful that it will fundamentally change his character: his drive to prove himself, which was so long informed by his bastardy, will not simply go away even if he does turn out to be legitimate. Enter fAegon. Here is the man who not only is most likely the real impostor, but he is the one who will make the story of JJ’s parentage even more unlikely. So what will Jon do with this information, in his drive to prove himself? Once it becomes clear that fAegon will not treat with Jon and Daenerys, and more extreme measures might be necessary, I don’t doubt that Jumbo will be highly tempted to climb on a dragon and set a fire or two. After all, who could possibly doubt his parentage if he proves himself an honest to god Dragon Rider? His choice for Fire and Blood was even foreshadowed earlier in the series, when Jeremy’s thoughts are unwittingly drawn to one of his ancestors, and how much he would like to emulate his example: Jon VII, ADWD Aside from the intriguing irony of Jon mirroring himself to the Targaryen who conquered Dorne, the kingdom which suffered the heaviest losses from Rhaegar’s infidelity (from which Jon is the product), him fashioning himself a conquerer because of his bastard birth is highly revealing. Jon is not interested in helping people: he is in it for honor and glory. And once Jon gets ahold of a dragon, who knows what he might be capable of? The tragic irony of his story will be that, while finding out that he is (possibly) not a bastard after all, he becomes everything a bastard is generally thought to be: selfish, ambitious, greedy, and violent. 3. Jon vs. Jaime While much has been said about Cersei and Daenerys being foils for each other, the obvious male half of that equation has not been often discussed yet. Jon Snow and Jaime Lannister, however, have more in common than meets the eye. They both join a military order from a very young age, be it for very different reasons: Jon believes the Night’s Watch is one of the few places where he, as a bastard, can achieve an honorable purpose in life, while Jaime, though he clearly has his idols in the then King’s Guard, mostly joins so he can spite his father and continue his incestuous relationship with his sister. Both have broken their sacred oaths. Aside from being not quite as celibate as their vows would have them be, they also, quite literally, do the opposite of what their job description tells them. Jaime the King’s Guard murders his king. Jon, at the first challenge he meets, runs away from the Night’s Watch, and is only saved by the virtue of his brothers. He fails his own rule about the Night’s Watch taking no part, and one might argue that he is not being very effective at being the “shield which guards the realms of men” either, since he allows the Wildlings through the Wall–a highly risky endeavor–and he actively aids Stannis in his quest to conquer the North, thereby participating in this Game of Thrones which will only further destabilize the country until the Others find their way past the Wall. Once again, though, Jon and Jaime’s reasons for becoming oathbreakers are quite different. Jaime kills Aerys to save the population of King’s Landing, which most would consider quite a noble sacrifice. Jon, on the other hand, breaks his vows for entirely selfish reasons. He wants to stand by his brother because he wants to be acknowledged as a true Stark. When Stannis offers to legitimize him, he hesitates quite some time before he is then, conveniently, voted in as the Lord Commander of the Night’s Watch, and the decision is taken off his hands. And yet, even as Lord Commander, when Jon is challenged by Ramsay Bolton by means of a letter, for some reason he “has to answer.” Not only that, but he reads the letter aloud to a room full of freefolk who are not sworn to the Night’s Watch, and are therefore free to follow him (and their response to the letter seems to make Jon quite hopeful), thereby leading them into a conflict which they have no part in, possibly leading them into a slaughter which is exactly what the free folk wanted to avoid, instead making them a tool in his own little game of thrones. The key differences between Jordan and Jaime, then, are key in Martin’s clever foreshadowing of Jon’s downfall. Jon is born a bastard, while Jaime is born as the rightful heir of Casterly Rock (in contrast, Joff only dreams of being the Lord of Winterfell). And while Jaime resents his birthright, and really wants nothing to do with it, Jon, as a bastard, wishes nothing better than to be acknowledged as a true son of Eddard Stark. His bastard status bothers him, and it has guided his decision making in many crucial moments. Jaime’s journey is one from selfishness to honor. Jory’s journey starts out with honor, but will it end up there? Jaime proves himself to be a genuinely kind and selfless man who sacrifices his own safety and comfort multiple times for a woman whom, by all definition, he should have no interest or investment in. Jon, in the mean time, has plenty of reasons to be invested in Daenerys. When she lands in Westeros, she’ll come with an army that is literally Jon’s only hope of defeating the White Walkers. His love for her will not be a selfless one, and even if it won’t end up quite as it did on the show (I do believe that will be Jaime and Cersei), chances are great he would lose interest the moment she has served his purpose in the war, i.e. defeat the Army of the Dead and get rid of Cersei and/or fAegon. King’s Landing So what is going to happen, when the battle for King’s Landing is ready to be fought? First of all, let’s discuss Jon’s relationship to dragons. He has dragonblood, to be sure, but dragonblood does not a dragon rider make, and as Daenerys has proven, a distressed dragon can be quite unwieldy, especially for an inexperienced rider. Between the “three heads of the dragon”, such as they have been defined by fandom (Dany, Jon, and Tyrion), Jeeves doesn’t have half the practical skill riding the dragons as Daenerys will have, nor any of the theoretical knowledge that Tyrion has. When Daenerys fled the fighting pit on Drogon’s back, many were killed or injured trying to attack the dragon. So what will happen in King’s Landing, with Jon impulsively flying into battle, ballistas aimed at him, and barrels full of wildfire hiding beneath the city just waiting to be lit up? What will happen when Jon either, being inexperienced as he is, fails to control his dragon adequately, or simply lets his anger guide him and tells his mount to light up the city? Johnson’s lust for fire has even been foreshadowed in the very first book, when he fights his first wight: Jon VII, AGOT Jon Snow as a living man was dangerous, selfish, and impulsive enough. What will happen to him when you add a little PTSD from getting murdered, an identity crisis, a powderkeg capital, and a dragon right at his command? While Rhaegar was generally considered a good-hearted man (though he had his own delusions, and him leaving his wife to impregnate a teenaged girl is highly dubious), Jett’s grandfather was the mad king himself, and Aerys–who only started going ‘mad’ after his trauma–never had to suffer an assassination and subsequent resurrection. It would not only be fitting, then, but also a rather clever inversion of traditional tropes, for this stereotypical hero figure, this hidden prince, to go dark after he finds out he is the promised prince from the stories. Jonathan Snowflake is a truly violent and impulsive man. We see his violent temper in different occasions: As we see in the first quote above, Jonathan wants to kill a man because of something as small as an insult. And in the last quote, we see how he completely loses his senses and beats Emmett senselessly. This shows Jonathan’s emotional instability, and is one of the signs that he is unfit to rule. Besides, we also know how Targaryen madness is a Chekhov’s Gun. So far, Daenerys hasn’t exhibitted such behavior as attacking people over insults, which, in my opinion, shows who is truly the most likely candidate to follow in the Mad King’s footsteps: Jonathan Snowflake himself. Imagine what kind of terrible tragedies his violent and impulsive temper could cause. Jonathan also exhibits many tyrannical behaviors. He kills people who disagree with him, like he did to Janos Slynt, even though his brothers of the Night’s Watch opposed his decision to kill him: So we see how Marsh didn’t approve of Jonathan’s tyrannical decision to kill a man simply because he disobeyed him, but Jonathan did it anyway. And he shows in other times that he is willing to kill people just for disobeying. He gives the Wildlings a false sense of freedom by telling them that he will not ask them to kneel, but we see that they are not truly free: Jonathan also uses force, fear and threats to rule. He uses Wildling children as hostages, and unlike Daenerys, who in the end, refused to kill her hostages, Jonathan has every intention of killing the children to force the Wildlings to obey him: He also uses threats to force Gilly to abandon her child and put her own child in danger for the sake of Mance’s child, threatening to kill her child if she doesn’t obey: And he also cruelly forces her to put her hand over the fire just to make a point: And it’s also important to note how Jonathan seems to think some lives are above others: he thinks trying to save Mance’s child is more important, and since Gilly is not an important person, he sees no problem in putting her child at risk, showing his classism. And besides this, of course, we see in OP’s post how Jon is actually a slave owner, forcing Wildlings to work for him, and he is even accused of being a slaver by the Wildlings. Jonathan is also very impulsive and reckless, and his actions leave the Wildlings at horrible conditions and poverty: Jonathan is so hypocritical that he berates his brothers of the Night’s Watch for mocking that the Wildlings are dirty, but fails to see that this is his fault: he is the one that is keeping the Wildlings confined to Mole’s Town, where’s there’s no space for them all, causing problems with the hygienic conditions. He is the one keeping the Wildlings in such inhuman conditions, even keeping guards to stop them from escaping: And not only there are problem with hygienic conditions, but there are also many other problems, like hunger, and Jonathan barely gives them anything to eat (while also forbidding them to leave): And like already pointed out in OP’s post, the only ones allowed to have more food are those who agree to fight for him, which is very much like slavery. And this also shows Jonathan’s recklessness and incompetence: he brings Wildlings from beyond the Wall despite his brothers’ reasonable objections, and soon he has no food to feed them or his brothers of the Night’s Watch, forcing the wildlings to live in extreme poverty and hunger, and forcing them to work for him (and he doesn’t even pay the Wildlings with money: he pays them with only food and shelter. That’s the same thing that slaves get, so the Wildlings are pretty much Jonathan’s slaves). He also puts the Night’s Watch in great debt with the Iron Bank due to his irresponsible administration. Jonathan is also very arrogant and entitled. He thinks he deserves to go in important missions even though he hasn’t earned it: He thinks he is better than the other peasant boys at the Night’s Watch: And he shows his sense of superiority by thinking about he’s the blood of Winterfell and the blood of the First Men: And he while he learns to pretend to be more humble for appearance’s sake after Noye scolds him, he keeps his attitude of superiority, never listening to the concerns of his men in the Night’s Watch and doing only what he thinks is better, without any regard for what his brothers think. Even Melisandre notes how Jonathan has a false humility that is more pride than anything, and it impairs his ability to rule: Finally, R+L=J is a huge hint about Jonathan’s future. Jonathan is very likely to end up only being a bastard of Rhaegar and Lyanna. And as we see from the show, he is not destined to become King of Westeros. So what could possibly be the narrative reason for Jonathan to be the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna? Some argue that R+L=J is important because Jonathan will be Azor Ahai/Prince that was Promise. But his aunt Daenerys already fits those prophecies much more, while he barely fits any of the requirements. So I would argue that the true reason for R+L=J is not for Jonathan to become king or prophetic hero: it’s a Chekhov’s Gun that will be revealed and explain Jonathan’s descent into madness, since he is the grandson of the Mad King. And it makes a lot of sense, really. Jonathan is arrogant and entitled, he is tyrannical and violent, he keeps people in horrible conditions akin to slavery, and does things for his selfish desires, for glory, or if it benefits him, as shown above in this meta. It’s truly subversive and brilliant: we are led to believe that Jonathan’s story is yet another boring story about a traditional white able-bodied male hero, who is a secret prince and will save the world, only to realize how corrupted he is, how we shouldn’t be cheering for his violent ways. I would like to remind everyone who identified with Snowy and saw something special in his growth that the story already has one good bastard male character: Gendry. Why on Earth would you want to stan that psycho Direwolf King when you have a perfectly unproblematic character right there? He even gets his happy ending in the show, and we all know this is very indicative. No, you can’t be fan of both for different reasons. Everyone knows you can’t stan two bastards at the same time. Yes, exactly. I’ve seen Jonathan stans saying that dark!Jonathan is bad because it’s “prejudice against bastards”. But Gendry is right there! Gendry is the true empowering representation for bastards! (It doesn’t matter that Gendry is only a side character and Jonathan is a protagonist, we all know that having positive representation in protagonists is not really that important. And we also know everyone must identify with one single character, we don’t need diverse representation of good bastards in power. Also, it’s totally ok if we have two evil bastards, that’s not problematic at all). Jonathan doesn’t need to be a symbol of empowerment for bastards, because we already have Gendry. Jonathan’s story is much more interesting as a villain, as a subversion of traditional fantasy tropes. Soooo, would you be in favour of mad queen Daenerys? Out of the two of them she is the one with the foreshadowing.