Arakan

On 2/6/2022 at 11:28 PM, The Marquis de Leech said:

I can report that I've just finished a mammoth (14,000 word) look at the implicit historical bias within the Akallabeth:

Elendil the Insufferable Lying Bastard - Part One
Elendil the Insufferable Lying Bastard - Part Two
Elendil the Insufferable Lying Bastard - Part Three

Elendil the Insufferable Lying Bastard - Part Four

Awesome . I know that it’s all a bit tongue in cheek but to be honest the condescending self-righteousness of the Numenoreans always rubbed me the wrong way since reading the UT back in the 90s as a 14/15 year old. At best I considered them as „well-meaning“, benevolent colonizers, which still made them insufferable. And Elendil indeed is a bit of a hypocrite as he and his successors are still very much proud of the „great host“ landing in Umbar and cowering Sauron, all the evil shit the Numenoreans were already up to at this point in time notwithstanding. This would be analog of me being super proud of the initial military success of Operation Barbarossa 1941 or the conquest of France 1940…
 

2 hours ago, Heartofice said:

Well Squid game didn’t accomplish what it promised in terms of social commentary. The first few episodes seemed to show that the writers were making a Parasite comment on inequality. But as the show went on that fell to the way side and the VIPs demonstrated that the show only had a very cartoonish view on the topic. 
 

I don’t see it, or Arcane, as doing anything really different to the MCU, which tries where it can to tick as many politically correct boxes as it can and appear to be subversive, whilst really just taking zero chances on almost every level. 

Let’s agree to vehemently disagree . The MCU is in the end a superhero power fantasy, a wish fulfillment. Spiced up with „righteous“, in its core fascistic vigilantism. The only risk they could undertake would be deconstructing that whole superhero business as bullshit, against the rule of law. They tried it somehow with CA Civil War but the sympathies were clearly on the side of the „righteous“ CA. 

Squid Game or Arcane have no fundamental differences do question the socio-hierarchical status quo, based on predatory capitalism. That’s obvious. 

16 hours ago, IFR said:

I don't agree with this. In season one The Wire was intelligently exploring the dysfunctions of social systems in great depth. It just happened to be focused on the legal system in the first season. It expanded that intelligent exegesis to other systems of dysfunction with each successive season.  Every part fit together beautifully at the end, and the show did as you say become the gold standard of social commentary in fiction.

I think Rippounet and the poster formerly known as Kalbear put it rather well. The focus of this show is pretty animation and some good action sequences. The show takes care to develop its characters to lend all of this more impact. It's not being lazy about social commentary, but social commentary certainly isn't the thrust of this series, and the show doesn't really have anything original or deep to say. It's not that kind of show.

And it really doesn't have to be. I think it should be praised for what it does do. Making a series based on LoL sounds like the dumbest idea ever, but against all odds the Arcane crew made it work pretty well.

Ok one time more. The Wire as Benchmark regarding socio-political and socio-economic commentary for Arcane is ludicrous. Of course the latter will fall short compared to the former. That’s not the point. 

The point is: Arcane is, by all accounts an absolute global smash hit, with a global mainstream appeal far outreaching the likes of The Wire, which itself is a great show but ultra-niche. The correct Benchmark for Arcane should thus be the MCU, DCEU or Star Wars. Sometimes I feel this Forum is such a bubble that you don’t even realize the magnitude of cultural indoctrination these latter shows had and have. That kind of vigilante power Fantasy with characters larger than life, more than mere mortals (in the MCU literally). That’s the reason why I can’t stomach Hawkeye anymore. No wonder you get these self-righteous Rittenhouse types. 

And Arcane, together with another global smash hit (Squid Game) is finally changing the tone and direction. Others tried (Falcon) but got afraid of their own Courage and literally ended up typical centrist-Style in a „let’s all just talk about it and then we find a Solution“ Situation. 

17 minutes ago, Heartofice said:

That kind of thing will only make me start to dislike a show I was enjoying! So why don’t we all just agree it’s very good, much better than it should have been and leave it there!

Ok, agreed . I expected nothing or something like Masters of the Universe Level. So I might be a bit over-enthusiastic right now   

12 hours ago, Rippounet said:

Well, Arcane is on the level of stuff like Korra or Naruto. Not bad if your target audience is kids or young teenagers, but not particularly groundbreaking, and certainly not bold. Any half-decent shônen that deals with politics and/or inequality will probably be at least on that level.

Naruto??? Sorry we disagree. It’s easily FMA Brotherhood level in terms of shades of grey. Easily. Let’s be fair. Naruto, come on…

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Any half-decent shônen that deals with politics and/or inequality will probably be at least on that level.

I presume you will know more Anime but I know enough from NGE to Elfenlied to 97 Berserk and so I can easily disagree because it’s simply not true. The difference between let’s say AOT and Arcane is that the power dynamics are much more subtle and thus feel more real in the latter. 

Lets put it this way: to make a show about Nazis=Bad is easy. To make a show though where Nazism is still portrayed as evil yet Nazis are still humans, and not all are psychopaths/sociopaths and the incarnation of Sauron because that’s not how Totalitarism or just even dictatorship/tyranny works (see Hannah Arendt), that’s a different beast. 

14 hours ago, fionwe1987 said:

I had to go to the Literature forum and confirm you were the same person, but how do you square this position, and your mentioning "way too high benchmarks" with your take on the WoT thread there? If you'd posted both anonymously, I'd believe they were from different people given the starkly contrasting perspectives.

In a Movie World dominated by Fast Food Marvel Movies and their glorification of fascistic empowerment Fetish fantasies or Fast and Furious, every Arcane is good. Or every Squid Game. In terms of reading maybe my benchmark is just higher ;)? YMMV

A character like Marcus is fantastic! Starts out as the typical fascho bully cop but in the end is so much More. That’s tragedy. Drama. That’s De Palma „Bad Lieutenant“ level. What a fucking performance. And it’s „just“ animation. That’s Scorcese level. Coen Brothers. The Wire, Breaking Bad. Name it. 

And in contrast to all the above, Arcane has a reach. Mainstream. Context people, all about context. 

1 hour ago, Rippounet said:

Which means you're still at the stage where you think inequality and injustice stem from apathy. Good for you, I guess. But I'm afraid that's objectively the kind of plot that you write for kids, not for adults.

Sorry I disagree. Example: many „normal“ people in Western Countries are not bad and do actually have a clear compass of what’s right or wrong, justice/injustice. But still the vast majority of the consumer products we buy every day is produced under very questionable to straight outrageous conditions (textile industry eg). But why does it happen? Not because the average person is evil but due to „out of sight out of mind“ attitudes, myself included. If people would actively more care then the outright corrupt and predatory minority couldn’t do what they do. 

Coming back to the „Topside“: we have negligence due to naive ignorance (Heimerdinger), due to apathy (don’t caring), systemic corruption of the political and economic elite, we have the corruption of the authorities, we have the sacrifice of integrity and principles due to „realpolitik“ (Jayce). It’s all there. 

And Silco is a character which can easily be found in revolutions whose leaders started out as idealists and later on got corrupted by the lust for power and status. 

And finally: your benchmark for a mainstream series is way too high. You say Arcane isn’t bold but compared to what? Compared to the average mainstream SFF/Comic adaptations (Marvel) it surely is. YMMV

1 minute ago, Rippounet said:

It really isn't, and they really weren't.

Yeah whatever. Why do you quote me without saying anything? I did find the apathy of Piltover towards the situation in Undercity quite realistic because we can see this kind of „as long as I am not affected, I don’t care“ attitude everyday in real life, in real life politics, in the small (city) or in the big (rich OECD countries vs. poor developing nations). Apathy and ignorance of the rich elite which leads  to negligence, systemic corruption and lack of Legal justice is a very clear statement for who is responsible. IMO cannot be more obvious. Doesn’t mean that all people in the council for example have to be repulsive personalities. This is not how it works.

But let’s end the conversation here if you don’t have more to over than a one liner. 

18 minutes ago, fionwe1987 said:

Hmm, I guess the show had something to say about class and inequality, but I'm not sure whatever it said landed coherently on me. It was fine, nothing bad, just nothing revelatory either. 

If it makes people think about stuff and question things, it achieved its goal. Again, we always have to take into consideration that this isn’t supposed to be a small indie production or niche product but the target audience is the global mainstream. 

13 minutes ago, Rippounet said:

At a glance, yeah, the setting seems to suggest that. But then, it carefully avoids putting the blame for the undercity on anyone from Piltover.

That is not true IMO. Piltover just doesn’t give a shit (apathy) or are simply ignorant (Heimerdinger). And that’s quite realistic I would say. 

Again, considering this is not a small niche show like the Wire always was, they were bold. And I acknowledge this. Context, it’s all about context. 

15 minutes ago, Ran said:

Agree on Powder/Jinx. Terrific performance by Ella Purnell (and Mia Sinclair Jenness in the initial episodes). Also quite liked the performance for Silco, by Jason Spisak.

I would like to add Shohreh Aghdashloo (Grayson) from the Expanse cast. Minor role but still terrific job done . 

48 minutes ago, IFR said:

It was a somewhat subpar story greatly elevated by its visuals. Hopefully they hire better writers for the next season.

The writing was good. Maybe a bit derivative but well it’s a first Season which had to pull so much off. Even the „classics“ (Sopranos, Wire, Breaking Bad) weren’t that great in the first season. Not counting literature adaptations for obvious reasons. 

Anyway, besides the animation and the Art Style, I was really impressed with the voice acting. Great job all around. 

1 hour ago, Rippounet said:

It's just that, given all the praise that was heaped on it, I thought it would be able to go beyond that. It really doesn't.

Tell me about a 100 million USD production which so all encompassingly shows whats all wrong with society. That’s bold. All characters shades of grey, all with their own personal, understandable motivations, even Silco. What’s comparable? Squid Game? Joker? Again, the target audience for this is huge as I have learned (so not really comparable to shows like Ozark or Narcos Mexico for example).

I praise the creators. This thing has a huge reach and if it makes teenagers or the youth think about all the injustice going on in the world I am happy. This planet must wake up.

Wish others franchises would use their power to be so bold but that’s a different topic. 

45 minutes ago, Kalsandra said:

It really has no right to be as good as it was. I can only hope it inspires someone to do lies of locke lamora or dishonored. 

I increasingly get the feeling that the pure storytelling in „Premium“ Animation is so much better than in comparable life-action, a clear narrative, clear arcs, clear structure. But not only this, also the conveying of honest emotions, compassion, sadness, happiness, melancholy, joy, humor is so much better in animation. You really feel it. 

Relatively recent examples would be Full Metal Alchemist Brotherhood, Invincible, Trollhunters, Castlevannia, The Clone Wars and now Arcane. 

You know sometimes you just have to wonder about Netflix…no big fanfare, no stretching it out. No. Here guys and gals, enjoy this nice series. I love it. And I really hope that Arcane becomes something big. I feel there are so many stories to be told…

47 minutes ago, fionwe1987 said:

Yeah, the sheer smoothness of the animation evoked hand drawn animation at it's best, while the CGI allowed for incredible cityscapes which looked wonderfully alive and complex.

 

Wonderfully put  . I got Akira flashbacks due to the sheer beauty of the art style. We truly live in Golden times when it comes to SFF in TV and Cinema. 

41 minutes ago, Ran said:

I would not go that far, re: best CG animation. "The Witness" from Love, Death, + Robots exists after all, and baffled and amazed even fellow professionals with its technique. Truth be told I think this show has taken some cues from Alberto Mielgo (who was also instrumental to developing the look and feel of Spider-Man: Into the Spider-Verse). 

True enough re LDR-The Witness (LDR first season as a whole is awesome) though I have to give it to Arcane: one thing is a 12 min short but to produce a whole bonafide season of 9x40min (give or take) episodes with THAT kind of animation quality…I am speechless and whatever gods maybe, thank you for Netflix. 

I am simply flashed with the animation and this doesn’t happen often. As a kid the Lion King and Toy Story, Akira as a teenager and last year with TCW 7th season (the final 4-parter). 

The possibilities Ran, the possibilities…imagine this kind of Animation quality plus passionate story tellers (the big plus of animation,  be it Western or Eastern) and ASOIAF or maybe First Age Tolkien (and many others). Life-Action fantasy TV has come a long way since the days of Xena or Hercules but will or can it ever truly do visual justice to the source material? I fear not. 

Hi friends :).

I was wondering that there isn’t a thread so far for Netflix‘ Arcane. To make it short: it’s Steam Punk Fantasy, based on the Online Game League of Legends (about which I have no clue) and it’s the best SFF series of 2021, no hyperbole there. 

The whole thing is CGI based animation, and oh boy…just watch it. There has never been anything comparable. Best CGI animation in human history so far. Nothing comes even close, neither smallscreen or bigscreen. 
 

3 hours ago, Werthead said:

House of the Dragon could well restart the phenomena again, and if/when Winds of Winter is released, I'm reasonably certain that will push it over 100 million as well.

Winds of Winter will be a smashing hit I am sure. I know quite a few people who gave up on the series but who are they kidding, when the book is out they will buy it. 

Regarding the sales figures for LOTR and The Hobbit, I think what makes them even more outstanding is the fact that they are basically base stock in every public or school library for decades already (at least here in Germany, I got my LOTR in 1993 from the school library). The same cannot be said about many other SFF series/books, i.e. you need to buy them if you are interested. 

And still Tolkien has very solid sales figures year after year. A true classic of world literature at this point. 

Another little fact: according to Penguin Random House, in Germany, ASOIAF sold more copies in 2011 alone than in all the previous 13 years since first being published in Germany combined. Whoa…this is actually so crazy and almost impossible to wrap your head around. 

I mean I started the series in early 2003 (inspired by extensive talk and promotion about it on the biggest German-speaking LOTR fansite) and I actually expected the series to already be „well established“ by 2011…guess it shows again what small bubble hardcore SFF book fans really are   

@Werthead Found these figures Here

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Meistverkaufte Bücher: Romane

1. Eine Geschichte aus zwei Städten (Charles Dickens, 1859), 200 Mio verkaufte Bücher.
2. Der Herr der Ringe (John R.R. Tolkien, 1954-55), 150 Mio.
3. Harry Potter und der Stein der Weisen (Joanne K. Rowling, 1997), 107 Mio.
4. Der Hobbit oder Hin und Zurück (John R.R. Tolkien, 1937), 100 Mio.
5. Der Traum der roten Kammer (klassischer chinesischer Roman, Cao Xueqin, 18. Jh), 100 Mio.
6. Und dann gabs keines mehr (Agatha Christie, 1939), 100 Mio.
7. Der König von Narnia (C.S. Lewis, 1950), 85 Mio.
8. Sie (H. Rider Haggard, 1887), 83 Mio.
9. Der kleine Prinz (Antoine de Saint-Exupery, 1943), 80 Mio.
10. Der Alchimist (Paulo Coelho, 1988), 65 Mio.
11. Der Fänger im Roggen (J.D. Salinger, 1951), 65 Mio.
12. Sakrileg – Der Da Vinci Code (Dan Brown, 2003), 57 Mio.
13. Anne auf Green Gables (Lucy Maud Montgomery, 1908), 50 Mio.
14. Black Beauty (Anna Sewell, 1877), 50 Mio.
15. Der Adler ist gelandet (Jack Higgins, 1975), 50 Mio.
16. Der Name der Rose (Umberto Eco, 1980), 50 Mio.
17. Heidis Lehr- und Wanderjahre (Johanna Spyri, 1880), 50 Mio.
18. Kon-Tiki. Ein Floß treibt über den Pazifik (Thor Heyerdahl, 1950), 50 Mio.
19. Lolita (Vladimir Nabokov, 1955), 50 Mio.
20.  Unten am Fluss (Richard Adams, 1972), 50 Mio.

Mostly in line with your list but I find the listing of single novels of bigger series quite interesting. Helps to put things into perspective. It’s in German but I thinks it’s clear what is what. 

I really think (what @Ran insinuated) that publishers are hurting themselves with these out of control ever larger epic fantasy series, maybe not so much the author himself (but even this is questionable). The longterm prospects of a 5000+ pages saga must get quite worse over time, especially when the hype is gone. The entry barrier is simply too high. It’s one thing to start LOTR (and getting hooked and buying all the other stuff) but starting reading WOT, Malazaan, ASOIAF when you are not sure you might even like it? The huge page count is a negative in that case.

9 minutes ago, Ran said:

The 14 million NA and the 30 million "world wide" -- where "world wide" means "not-NA" -- means 44 million copies sold. This would mean that Tor counts just plain books -- 3 sales of the 3 volumes of Lord of Chaos in Germany = 3 books sold -- and then the "rule of thumb" doesn't quite work for Big Fat Fantasy Series that get split up into lots of volumes overseas, and instead it makes more sense that for every 1 book sold in NA it's ~2 books sold overseas.

I really think that‘s the way they do the counting. And technically they would be correct. A book is a book, even if it’s just a third (or a fourth as in many cases of WOT) of the original book. As I said in Germany that is quite common for epic fantasy series (perfect cashcow market here) and Germany (Austria, Switzerland) alone would have a significant impact on inflating the numbers as it is the second biggest book-selling market after all (roughly 400 million copies per year). 

But the same is true on the reverse: box sets. Harry Potter is basically all or nothing, i.e. the advertisement is focused on the complete sets. Which means: you buy „one“ but actually 7. At least this is the way it’s done over here. One can easily imagine how this inflated the HP figures. 

@Werthead @Ran

I think both of you are missing or underestimating one important aspect: book splitting. I can only speak for the German (or better German-speaking) market (with roughly 100 million people the biggest SFF market in Europe by quite a margin) but here it is quite common to split Fantasy saga books into two or more parts (for the paperbacks). 
ASOIAF: 5 split into 10 
WOT: 14 split into 36(!) 

I wouldn’t wonder if for example the total quantity of ASOIAF or WOT „books“ sold in Germany is much higher than in the UK. We are a SFF translation market anyway. 

For WOT: are let’s say 500k (more or less) complete sets of WOT in the German speaking market plausible? Absolutely, given the time span. That would translate into more than 15 Million „Books“! 

On 12/4/2021 at 7:08 AM, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

If chef efficiently makes mac and cheese… it’s still just mac and cheese. Rothfuss, Martin, and Lynch are making much better than mac and cheese.

This attitude is basically enabling narcissistic validation seeking. No one is entitled to nothing, that much is clear but those writers are also not entitled of being permanently in the spotlight. I would respect them much more if they wouldn’t constantly seek the public. Unfortunately we as fans fuel their narcissistic cravings. But that’s social media for you. 
 

@.H.

see my answer to sologdin. Quintessence: Bakker was too young, too inexperienced to bring across all of his ideas and thoughts in an adequate manner. The 2nd Apocalypse is magnum opus territory and sometimes I wish he would start writing it now, with almost 50 and all the knowledge, wisdom and experience one accumulates with age.