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Universal Sword Donor

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  1. Universal Sword Donor

    Duncan saved Rhaegar despite Aegon V?

    Stop trying to hijack threads
  2. Universal Sword Donor

    Duncan saved Rhaegar despite Aegon V?

    If only I had addressed this before: Don't get me wrong the character clearly follows the kind of arc you're describing, it just starts much lower than "good and noble." No to the IB. They got paid. We can stop discussion of that here. Start a new thread
  3. Universal Sword Donor

    Duncan saved Rhaegar despite Aegon V?

    Massive cheating on his wife, grandiose plans never followed through on, delegated governance to his Hand, trying to cheat the iron bank and then fight it It's not bad and ignoble but in no way shape or form is it good and noble. I mean there's a reason you left out the rest of that sentence and the succeeding one.
  4. Universal Sword Donor

    Duncan saved Rhaegar despite Aegon V?

    Aerys started out good and noble? Don't get me wrong the character clearly follows the kind of arc you're describing, it just starts much lower than "good and noble."
  5. Universal Sword Donor

    Duncan saved Rhaegar despite Aegon V?

    Any evidence of them being found anywhere else but KL
  6. Universal Sword Donor

    Duncan saved Rhaegar despite Aegon V?

    Pyromancers are from Westeros, not Asshai (see Hallyne). Not everything is a Bloodraven plot. Jaime thought Aerys II believed he'd be reborn as a dragon after the wildfire explosion, so I'd put some credence in that. the actual notion of Dunk betraying his king would fit in the overall tone of the series more. Maybe foreshadow for Barristan
  7. Universal Sword Donor

    Military Strengths and More!

    Squires are considered fighters. More often than not they are older men without the means to become knights. GRRM and the books both address this: We tend to think of squires as teenaged boys, knights in training, but that is only part of the truth. Historically, there were many men who spent their entire lives as squires, and never became knights. It was quite common to have thirty- and forty-year-old squires, even some in their fifties. Such men perhaps did not have the wealth to become knights (knights had to pay for their own equipment), or perhaps did not have the inclination. They were the medieval counterparts of the career army sergeant who has no desire to be promoted to lieutenant. Let alone general." Ser Wylis and his brother Ser Wendel followed, leading their levies, near fifteen hundred men: some twenty-odd knights and as many squires, two hundred mounted lances, swordsmen, and freeriders, and the rest foot, armed with spears, pikes and tridents. Olyvar Frey was squire to Robb and protected him at the Whispering Wood. Podrick killed Mandon Moore. Jon was basically Jeor's squire and he considered a fighter, being sent on the mission with Qhorin.
  8. Universal Sword Donor

    Who would be the best King from the WoFK

    But he's repeated it so often!
  9. Universal Sword Donor

    Who would be the best King from the WoFK

    What you're typing is clear. Your reasoning is not and your evidence even worse: Why would Mace marry his daughter to the king? Well that's pretty obvious. He wants grandchildren on the throne. Now why would Renly try to do this? Because Cersei is trying to kill him and if she's not queen she has a lot less access and power to do so: “Lord Renly took a step back, taut as a bowstring. “Every moment you delay gives Cersei another moment to prepare. By the time Robert dies, it may be too late … for both of us.” “Then we should pray that Robert does not die.” “Small chance of that,” said Renly. “Sometimes the gods are merciful.” “The Lannisters are not.” Lord Renly turned away and went back across the moat, to the tower where his brother lay dying.” “On the night of Robert’s death, I offered your husband a hundred swords and urged him to take Joffrey into his power. Had he listened, he would be regent today, and there would have been no need for me to claim the throne.” “Ned refused you.” She did not have to be told. “He had sworn to protect Robert’s children,” Renly said. “I lacked the strength to act alone, so when Lord Eddard turned me away, I had no choice but to flee. Had I stayed, I knew the queen would see to it that I did not long outlive my brother.” “his meddling had forced her to rid herself of Robert sooner than she would have liked, before she could deal with his pestilential brothers.” He literally says he doesn't want the throne until it was the last option. Cersei says she wanted to kill Renly and Stannis.
  10. Universal Sword Donor

    Who would be the best King from the WoFK

    He absolutely would not retain the Tyrells. They married their daughter to a king. Renly wanted to wed Marg to Robert, who was the king. Why would they settle for any less? There's no motivation for them to marry Marg to the heir, whose sole is still alive, when the current king (and his heir) remain unwed. Notice how Stannis didn't either offer to set aside Selyse for Marg, and the Tyrells also didn't offer Marg or Loras (to marry Shireen since she was his heir). In fact, the Tyrells and their vassals seized Stannis' emissaries, started massacring the Florent infantry, and opened up communications with Tywin. Even ignoring that the Tyrells *might* have been okay with marrying the heir to the throne, Stannis as an ally was so completely unthinkable they started killing those allied with him. And you seriously think that they would accept Stannis as a king? Then you have the Florents constantly bitching in series about their claims to Highgarden. There was no way there were going to unite after Renly was crowned. Renly crowned himself because Stannis was gone and he was alone against the Lannisters. Even if they managed to storm KL successfull, they are in a starving city with Tommen and Myrcella at a different location, with the possibility of being taken in the rear by Tywin, the hand of the king, and the tyrells, who know have a betrothal between Marg and Tommen. And that was never going to happen unless Stannis came out of his shell and they are fine with the Tyrells going directly to the Lannisters. There is nothing saying Aerys' heirs were to be disinherited, but I will leave that aside. I will point out that Renly's acts and situation are virtually identical to Robert's at that point. Alone, on the run, searching for allies from a throne who wants his head. No no no. He plots to have Robert switch out Cersei for Marg because he thinks Cersei is trying to kill him (and likely Robert and Stannis). Then he tries to get Ned to seize power. Then he basically laughs at Stannis' letter and asks him if he can prove it. It all leans toward him not knowing until Stannis sent the letter -- three kids having blonde hair isn't unusual. My siblings and I had it and our father has coal black hair -- or believing it but knowing \the allegation is worthless without proof, bringing everyone back to square one. Note that Stannis just finds his teeth when Renly asks him about proof. The Tyrells leave. They can get a better offer from the Lannisters and will get that better offer. Agreed but he loses most of his support if he declares Stannis his king. He tries to get Cersei replaced with Marg because she is trying to kill him. He asks Ned to take his swords and seize the children, while Ned names himself Lord Protector and Regent. He says the Lannisters will harm them. Ned refuses and then stupidly asks LF for support. Renly lives. Ned dies after LF betrays him. 1) Stannis has had one child in 10-15 years of marriage, producing one disfigured daughter. 2) Divorce is not really an option.There's a reason why Doran hasn't divorced Mellario. Even accepting that it might happen why would the Tyrells marry their daughter to a non-believer. There is literally nothing to suggest they would. Sometimes relationships start on a good foot: you become acquainted, there's a great sexual attraction, you establish a relationship, you marry... and then in four or five years you realize that you don't really have anything in common, that at best you've made a mistake and are in a situation that doesn't have any easy solution in a society such as that of the Seven Kingdoms, where divorce simply isn't common. This is an example that it's not only marriages of convenience that fail, but even the marriages for love can fail. He was trying to get Cersei set aside, which means Marg becomes the queen and married to Robert. So this is false. I'm not conveniently ignoring anything: 1) Stannis has disappeared and won't respond to any ravens, messages. 2) Renly tried twice to neutralize the Lannister thread without declaring himself king. 3) Renly barely escapes the capital before the Lannisters strike You really don't have a strong grasp on claim do you? Leading a civil war to overthrow the crown, which had been at least part of the precedent for his brother's crown, was definitely a claim. You can argue it as valid or not but the there prongs to the Robert Baratheon are satisfied: 1) Close blood relation to the crown (2nd cousin vs brother) 2) Under threat of death from crown 3) Has the military might to back up his claims on the battlefield Even more, we have GRRM piling on: There are no clear cut answers, either in Westeros or in real medieval history. Things were often decided on a case by case basis. A case might set a precedent for later cases... but as often as not, the precedents conflicted as much as the claims. The decision eventually boiled down to precedence (John Balliol) versus proximity (Bruce) and went to Balliol, but those other thirteen guys all had claims as well. King of Eric of Norway, for instance, based his claim to the throne on his =daughter=, the aforementioned Maid of Norway, who had been the queen however briefly. He seemed to believe that inheritance should run backwards. The bottom line, I suppose, is that inheritance was decided as much by politics as by laws. In Westeros and in medieval Europe both. Just read this: http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/The_Hornwood_Inheritance_and_the_Whents I didn't really feel the need to explain why Renly cannot physically protect himself. If he loses the Tyrells (but somehow keeps all the SL), then he adds maybe another 5000 shitty troops and mercenaries to army while the Lannisters remain at full strength and likely gain the Tyrells. That would put him at a net -55K to -75K on the manpower side. Maybe they get Robb to join them, so it's only another -35K to -55K. He's denounced as a traitor well after hes' assembled his men, something like a month or two. Renly leaves after Robert's death in late October and pronounced king in early January. You've also given no proof Renly knew and there's every indication he didn't and/or knew it didn't matter. As to the bolded, that's literally what they did in the story. We've also got no evidence that they had any knowledge of the incest. You can keep repeating that till you're blue in the face and have, so surely you have a list of who learned about the incest and quotes as to when they learned or confirmed/implied they knew.
  11. Universal Sword Donor

    Who would be the best King from the WoFK

    Abominations and threats to his potential kingship. But yes he hated him some incest
  12. Universal Sword Donor

    Who would be the best King from the WoFK

    Please make a partial list of who. You can separate it into "People who know", "People who verbally or POV suspect" and "Everyone else." Please strike through anyone whose thoughts come AFTER Stannis' suspicion
  13. Universal Sword Donor

    Who would be the best King from the WoFK

    Let's just agree to disagree Renly doesn't know what the hell Stannis is doing. Barely anyone does. Nor does he know his purpose. The forces of the Reach are 100% not irrelevant. Even going by the typical timeline they'd have, what, 25K between the two of them? Tywin is at HH. He can and will still march down and strike them in the rear. And that ignores that Mace is still independent and this point so he can still offer the same Joff/Tommen marriage needed to cement the largest army in the realm. I'm guessing it's because we paid attention in middle school, high school, college and when we read the books. Aerys had already murdered 10 nobles, including an LP and his heir, for little provocation. I am not talking about Robert claiming the throne but the civil war he fought to stay alive. You might remember Aerys calling for Robert's head for no reason. But as to your ludicrously sophomoric notion of "strong legal case" inheritance was rarely neat, especially in an era modeled after the War of Roses and when GRRM said it's a messy situation. It isn't common knowledge. It's known by a few. Varys, LF, Jon Arryn, Stannis, and Ned knew but that's about it. Even if Renly has heard it, he dismissed it outright. Then you have the facts that: Robert recognized his children, no one can really dispute it with a confession from Jaime/Cersei, and Ned Stark "confessed" that he was rebelling and Joff was Robert's son. Renly should do exactly what he did. Anything you'd ask him to do is asking him to sew himself in a rock-filled sack. 1) Cersei confirms thats he was going to kill all the Baratheon brothers on Arryn put Robert Baratheon in her bed, and before he died he'd begun sniffing about her and Jaime as well. Eddard Stark took up right where Arryn had left off; his meddling had forced her to rid herself of Robert sooner than she would have liked, before she could deal with his pestilential brothers 2) Stannis would have accepted Renly being the subordinate, which immediately loses the support of Highgarden. 3) No See point 1 4) Mostly wrong and completely refuted 5) Will all the swords of the SL come to defend Renly when he's denounced as a traitor and the armies of Westeros come for him?
  14. Universal Sword Donor

    Military Strengths and More!

    Yes. I was kind of confused why you brought it up. Pretty much irrelevant.
  15. Universal Sword Donor

    Who would be the best King from the WoFK

    He's not going to get any more power with Robert as king. He can get pretty much anything he wants now. Being besties with the Queen's brother isn't as good as, ya know, being the king's brother. Stannis ran away from the danger without telling anyone his suspicions and left renly and Robert to their own devices. Not only was Stannis not there in KL, he actively refused to respond to anyone including Ned and had actively been raising sellswords and sellsails before Robert had even died. Even if Renly had allied himself with Stannis, either way they get steamrolled. Stannis can barely raise an army and the Stormlands didn't even send their full strength with Renly when he was the prime candidate. If Renly isn't king, he doesn't get the Tyrells. Robert had no legal case either. It was a battle for survival. Overthrowing Joffrey means little and less if Tommen and Myrcella are still alive. Skipping one spot versus skipping four hardly makies it worse. Renly's best chance for survival (and Stannis' too) was to ally himself with the Tyrells. That's what he did. He cannot get the same protection. 100K swords is more than 20K swords, no?
  16. Universal Sword Donor

    Military Strengths and More!

    And they are most likely all dead or broken men somewhere in the RL.
  17. Universal Sword Donor

    Who would be the best King from the WoFK

    Why do people keep saying this? We're literally told his motivation in the book and its confirmed by Cersei: Lord Renly took a step back, taut as a bowstring. "Every moment you delay gives Cersei another moment to prepare. By the time Robert dies, it may be too late … for both of us." "Then we should pray that Robert does not die." "Small chance of that," said Renly. "Sometimes the gods are merciful." "The Lannisters are not." Lord Renly turned away and went back across the moat, to the tower where his brother lay dying. ------------------------------------------------------------------- "He was old, yes, but a good man still. I hope he has not come to harm. The Lannisters are great fools." They climbed a few more steps. "On the night of Robert's death, I offered your husband a hundred swords and urged him to take Joffrey into his power. Had he listened, he would be regent today, and there would have been no need for me to claim the throne." "Ned refused you." She did not have to be told. "He had sworn to protect Robert's children," Renly said. "I lacked the strength to act alone, so when Lord Eddard turned me away, I had no choice but to flee. Had I stayed, I knew the queen would see to it that I did not long outlive my brother." ------------------- His meddling had forced her (Cersei) to rid herself of Robert sooner than she would have liked, before she could deal with his pestilential brothers. He tries two different ways to force Cersei out before she kills him that don't involve increase to his power or becoming king and then finally declares himself king because it's the best way to protect himself from Cersei and the Lannisters. Joff hates him too. And for military tactics, but letting his opponents batter each other down and making them easier to fight seems like decent strategy to me (and classic tenets of war). If you speak of SE, well I can see the small elements he gives up from a tactics standpoint (fighting into the sunlight, not waiting for infantry, et al) but occasionally smashing something with a large hammer is useful from an strategic and political standpoint. Personally I would have sent Tarly or someone to relieve SE while I continued my march to KL but, minus a shadow baby which was heretofore unknown in Westeros, the plan was going to work. Stannis had neither the defensive positioning nor the fortifications to withstand a force 4x - 5x times bigger and better armed and armored.
  18. Universal Sword Donor

    Who would be the best King from the WoFK

    Just spitballing here, how do the battles of Dragonstone, Deepwoode Motte or the Siege of Storms end estabish him as a prodigy? 1) Dragonstone - Captured an island where the garrison of (probably) 300 was ready to hand over the targ children 2) Deepwood motte - captures DM against token IB force who abandoned the awful fortress as soon as it was apparently Stannis was at the gates. 3) Siege of Storm's End - never been captured in battle or siege Gunther sunglass was thrown in jail for telling Stannis he wouldnt support his claim. He's plenty flawed and overrated in many senses Renly had to have most of the SL troops given the number he had at Bitterbridge. He only learned of the incest when Stannis sent his letter and its clear from Cat's POVs he didn't believe it one bit Why wouldn't you try to kill someone who wants to kill you? He clearly has a grasp on feudal politics. He's a favor of the commons, has the largest army in the country, and is just generally well received. His grasp of military strategy? Proceed slowly while I can and let the others beat one another up? Destroy Stannis with overwhelming numbers while he's weak? 'is an ettempted kinslayer' is better than an actual kinslayer? So much shit gets piled on Renly without an oz of critical thought.
  19. Universal Sword Donor

    Who would be the best King from the WoFK

    Ned inherited it while his family was in open rebellion (or soon enough to not matter). Either way it's irrelevant because he bent the knee and swore fealty just like Tywin, Jon Arryn, and Hoster Tully. So even if he were a lord before, he is a lord with the rights of pits and gallows because Robert let him keep all his lands and titles after the rebellion (not that there was a question of him swearing or keeping his lands) He can enact justice because the king says he can. He says it himself. He personally knelt and was granted his titles and privileges. I can repeat that until I am blue in the faith. Warden of the North is a military title. It has nothing to do with the dispensation of justice.
  20. Universal Sword Donor

    Who would be the best King from the WoFK

    It stems from Robert's authority to make him a feudal lord and upholding the king's laws: “His father peeled off his gloves and handed them to Jory Cassel, the captain of his household guard. He took hold of Ice with both hands and said, “In the name of Robert of the House Baratheon, the First of his Name, King of the Andals and the Rhoynar and the First Men, Lord of the Seven Kingdoms and Protector of the Realm, by the word of Eddard of the House Stark, Lord of Winterfell and Warden of the North, I do sentence you to die.” ”
  21. Universal Sword Donor

    Military Strengths and More!

    The same way camp followers like Meribald & friends or Mance attached themselves to trains. They saw a large group of men moving and attached themselves to it. If they are performing a duty in camp -- camp followers are going to match or exceed the fighting men -- then they are going to get fed. With respect to the quality of the infantry, yes it will vary. However the only time we see any Westerosi soldiers described in such poor terms, it's when they are being sent to their death/used as cannon fodder (Freys) or specifically situated to rout as quickly as possible. Given what we in combat from the rest of the infantry, the "Sweepings" of the west are both a unique group and not clear evidence that they are tapped out, especially since they raise another force. If the supposed 'poor' North can field 20K troops which all have the proper arms and armaments for legitimate men-at-arms who can march in formation under arrow fire, the 'notoriously disciplined', richer infantry under Tywin is hardly going to be in any worse shape. These armies are more or less modeled after War of the Roses armies. Even armies 50+ years before that had periodic musters where unsuitable men were sent home or not brought in the first place. Those men had to come from somewhere and given their place with the freeriders and Vale clansmen, it seems pretty obvious that they attached themselves to the Lannisters after Tywin mustered his forces. I cannot emphasize it enough that his undisciplined, poorly armed Valemen join after the army is mustered and are stuck in that group with mercenaries, who we know flocked to his banner and freeriders who attach themselves to moving armed retinues at least 3 times in AGoT. For textual reference to many of the point above, I do enjoy using this thread:
  22. Universal Sword Donor

    Military Strengths and More!

    Right, that's why I said they are poor and have small holdings. Because he's following the camp? Is that a serious question? If a lord shows up to levy with a farmboy on a plowhorse and a rusty scythe, they are going to send his ass back home. Then you have this: for the most part we are talking about feudal levies and peasant militia, with little discipline and less training. Although some lords do better than others. Tywin Lannister's infantry was notoriously well disciplined http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/1174/ They don't fit in equipment-wise with the rest of the army, they are in a leaderless mass, they are ill-disciplined, and the plan was for them to rout (unknowingly) so Tywin could decimate Robb's army. Did the notorious disciplinarian Tywin Lannister just led leaderless, shit "soldiers" into his army or did he grab a bunch of useless mouths to spring a trap? It's not like we have an example of what he'd do with such a group right before a big battle But sure let's go with they were tapped out at the Green Fork.
  23. Universal Sword Donor

    Military Strengths and More!

    Why? They are poor and have small holdings. "Dare I ask how many swords come with your bride, Robb?" "Fifty. A dozen knights." --- The Westerlings were old blood, but they had more pride than power. It would not surprise him to learn that Lady Sybell had brought more wealth to the marriage than her highborn husband. The Westerling mines had failed years ago, their best lands had been sold off or lost, and the Crag was more ruin than stronghold. A romantic ruin, though, jutting up so brave above the sea. ---- And as far as Tywin's army was concerned: "I put the least disciplined men on the left, yes. I anticipated that they would break. Robb Stark is a greenboy, more like to be brave than wise. Those guys were just put out as bait. Sellswords were going to be rabble anyway. No one really cares if the Mountain's men die, but if they do well, it's golden gravy. The farmboys are most likely just camp followers who managed to get a shitty horse, aka the people who attached themselves to the army without being summoned (aka the Septon Meribalds of the world) Yet there are enough men for Stafford to start training a new army, garrison the Golden tooth, CR, Lannisport, et al? They might be short on available manpower (in the middle of harvest season) but I don't think they are tapped out
  24. Universal Sword Donor

    Who would be the best King from the WoFK

    An inexhaustive list of Joffrey's views on laws, actions, and what he generally does: Lied about Mycah, Arya attacking him Beats Sansa for her brother's "crimes" (obviously open to individual interpretation) Demanding protesters be killed for throwing poop at him Orders Ser Dontos drowned in wine for being drunk Dismisses Barristan from the KG Tries to kill Bran for being a cripple Demand all traitorous families, including people who've not fought nor could if they wanted to, be killed to a person People's opinion of Joffrey: Joffrey is truly a little shit - Jon About the wolf, I mean. My son was lying, I'd stake my soul on it. - Robert The thought of Joffrey on the throne, with Cersei standing behind him whispering in his ear. My son. How could I have made a son like that, Ned? - Robert Her son needs to be taken in hand before he ruins us all. - Tywin "Not Robert the Second," Tyrion said. "Aerys the Third." - Tyrion Because Joff was no more to me than a squirt of seed in Cersei's cunt. And because he deserved to die - Jaime
  25. Universal Sword Donor

    Military Strengths and More!

    Putting Dorne at 10K - 15K when they sent 10K to fight at the Trident seems a mite absurd. They clearly aren't going to strip the country of every fighting man. We can agree on that. 5K seems like it would barely exceed the garrisons of the lordly houses. Even the landed knights are going to have household guards or men-at-arms in their retinue. Garrison of Griffin's Roost was at least 10 people (4 leftover, swords ringing out in 6 different places, 2 men on gate duty, one man pouring cold oil), and the holding is is tiny compared to what it used to be.
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