Could Stannis be the one who will discover that R+L=J? [spoilers, book 6]

[CelticKevin]

If he was going to support a claim of the Iron Throne for Jon, he's had almost two decades to do that for Viserys. Why Jon?

That's a very good question.

Here is my speculative thought: If the evidence of R+L=J is convincing and includes a lot of "details" it may be just the sort of thing to get Stannis to wake up to the truth.

Let's just imagine if there are letters, trinkets, objects or other strong evidences from R & L entombed that may powerfully underscore a loving relationship (and legitimate relationship). That sort of revelation would sink the whole kidnap/rape accusation, which is a huge blow against Robert's rebellion. Would that set Stannis onto the track that his cause is flawed or not truly just? Maybe... He is a hard arse, so he may choose to ignore it sort of like he ignores the way Renly was murderedby his own shadow brat...

Viserys is dead, so he is out of luck and got crowned in his own way... Jon on the other hand still has a role to play, so if Stannis figures things out and has a change of heart then Jon may gain a formidable ally.

Part of me wants to say that if Stannis gets all of the pieces of the puzzle that he will see the truest claim belongs to Jon.

But when it comes to ASoIaF, I have been so very wrong before and will be again.

[The Iron Banker]

Sweet summer child, hang around the forums for a while and you will start to notice there are a lot of things you might take for granted by they aren't. :) Benjen didn't go to the Wall until a little later in life. He was with Brandon, Lyanna and Ned at the Tourney of Harrenhall, so it could be he is not that clueless about things that happened there. He was the Stark in Winterfell during Robert's Rebellion and only joined the Night's Watch shortly after that (for reasons unknown). So he's been a brother for only like 17 years now. The timing is a bit suspicious.

eta: some more details.

I am indeed a forum summerchild and not afraid to admit it :D

Interesting point here, and very suspecious

[Iona]

I am indeed a forum summerchild and not afraid to admit it :D

Interesting point here, and very suspecious

I hope you enjoy the ride and keep an open mind!

[The Iron Banker]

I hope you enjoy the ride and keep an open mind!

Learning new stuff every day! For example, at first in the books I didnt pick up that Arya is training as FM, Jaquen at Citadel, Abel = Mance etc etc

[Welease Woger]

Let's just imagine if there are letters, trinkets, objects or other strong evidences from R & L entombed that may powerfully underscore a loving relationship (and legitimate relationship). That sort of revelation would sink the whole kidnap/rape accusation, which is a huge blow against Robert's rebellion. Would that set Stannis onto the track that his cause is flawed or not truly just? Maybe... He is a hard arse, so he may choose to ignore it sort of like he ignores the way Renly was murderedby his own shadow brat...

Dude, this is Stannis... The guy is all about duty. From his point of view, Lyanna was promised to Robert and it was her duty to marry him gladly. If she wasn't kidnapped, if she voluntarily decided to flee with Rhaegar, that will make him loathe her.

I think Stannis would never support Jon's claim, that will only antagonize the two of them. Now, imagine if, at the same time, Melisandre figures out that it's Jon who is her Azor Ahai Reborn, not Stannis... that would be an interesting turn of events.

[joluoto]

I don't think Stannis would care if he found out. He'd shrug it off as "Jon is just another man's bastard than I previously thought".

[Welease Woger]

I don't think Stannis would care if he found out. He'd shrug it off as "Jon is just another man's bastard than I previously thought".

Well, maybe there could be an evidence in the crypts that Lyanna and Rhaegar married. The Targaryens consider themselves above the law, it would not be that surprising if they eventually reinstated their polygamic traditions.

[joluoto]

Well, maybe there could be an evidence in the crypts that Lyanna and Rhaegar married. The Targaryens consider themselves above the law, it would not be that surprising if they eventually reinstated their polygamic traditions.

Even then Stannis could easily just shrug it of as a non- legitimate marriage. Also since Jon is brother of the Watch who has refused Winterfel once when Stannis offered it, I don't think Stannis would consider Jon a threat at all.

[Tini]

Well, maybe there could be an evidence in the crypts that Lyanna and Rhaegar married. The Targaryens consider themselves above the law, it would not be that surprising if they eventually reinstated their polygamic traditions.

What sort of irrefutable evidence could there be? A marriage certificate?

There may be evidence that links Rhaegar and Lyanna - but that will only cast doubt on Lyanna's character. People won't say that Targaryens always had a tradition of polygamy; they will say that Rhaegar was a man, after all, and had a mistress. A high-born mistress is still not a wife.

I don't think there is evidence in the crypts. I think we might find out through Bran who already saw Lyanna in a vision.

[Welease Woger]

^

Well, we might find out through Bran or Howland Reed. But in order to the revelation of Jon being son of Rhaegar and Lyanna have any repercussion at all in the 7K, there should be compelling evidence somewhere. What's the point on Jon knowing his true parentage if no one is going to believe in it? Just so he may have some closure?

I think at least Melisandre should know the truth, because that could have implications on her beliefs about Stannis being Azor Ahai.

[aryagonnakill]

There is no compelling evidence that Aegon is Rhaegars and look what is happening. Jons story would make a lot more sense than Aegons too.

[Welease Woger]

Yeah, but Aegon has a very powerfull sponsor.

[HerrDoktor]

How Stannis reacts to Aegon is going to be quite telling for what he would do if he discovers R+L=J. Same goes for Dany to a lesser extent. Both could pave the road for Stannis to be more accepting of Jon's Targ heritage.

This will never happen but what if Stannis decides to use Jon's uncertain parentage to start a rumor that R+L=J to gain further northern support for a campaign south of the neck and to counteract Aegon's success with his own secret Targ? Imagine his utter surprise when he discovers that the rumor he started for political gain ends up being true! I only view this option as even somewhat possible because I doubt GRRM is going to have Jon as a standard hidden heir who rises up to claim his birthright at the appropriate time.

[Federico]

On Stannis regard for Lyanna for willfully breaking her betrothment to Robert... It was to Robert, a big time womanizer. He might agree with her choice.

Still, what artifacts of that era would definitively prove Jon is the true born son of R and L? Enumerating plausible possibilities might be helpful. I can only think of testimony from honorable witnesses.

It seems unlikely Stannis will log on to the Wierwood net. And the fires, well, either might convince the viewer and some others.

Sealed documents?

[Jon Weirgaryen]

OldMightyGods... What would Jon do? Grrm has got us in his grasp telling us Stannis is somehow predictable, but that's not quite true, is it?

First, there clearly is something in the crypts of Winterfell connected to Jon. He an Bran dreamt or had visions of Jon visiting the crypts in order to find something about his past. Some people suppose that Lyanna's tomb might have some object,(...) that connected Jon to the Targaryens...

Truly the remains of Jon's mother might be a thing connecting to Jon. There was a statue of Lyanna last time we had a look, that is something. What could it tell? Melisandre might bring her back from her bones and make her say something. Wow.

Going crackpot there may be the bones of a newborn girl in there. Or of a small girl child. Or of a crannogman. Or the tomb might be empty.

Any of these would dearly surprise me though, I can't see it happening.

Is it possible Howland Reed has infilitrated Stannis retinue at the Crofter's Village?

Quite possible. Why would he not?
Arguably he knows he was a war hero allied to Stark and Baratheon, and so was Stannis at the time of the Robellion (or the year following the sack of Kings Landing).
Maybe they never met, then it is time for the hobbit adventurer to leave his den and have a look at King Stannis.

The Reeds may know of King Robb Stark's death. They may even have got a message legalising Jon Snow and naming him "Jon Stark" and than proclaiming the same Jon Robb Stark's heir and his successor as "King in the North" and "King of the Trident" in the event of King Robb's own dead. More maybes might there be a command by Robb of rallying the Northerners to throw out the Ironmen.
I wonder if the same might be true for Boltons, but it probably isn't, thus complicating matters and forcing Stark loyalists to contraband.

Maybe this is why Mance wants the Winterfell Crypts, he thinks the key to Jon's heritage is in Lyanna's tomb.

Why would Mance care for Jon?

If there was anything to be told about Jon's ancestry, it would be up to Howland Reed to tell it, yes. But not Mance. Or did I miss something?

... speculation on whether Bran is trying to help Theon, or use him in some kind of blood magic in order to ressurect Jon, but there could be another reason: maybe Bran doesn't care too much about Theon, it's Stannis that he wants to contact.

Actually Bran should be merciful with Theon, given that chance. Bran is not the vengeful spirit Arya is.
We have seen Jon in dire straits, but we haven't actually seen him die yet. As you might have read Grrm before, there was a reason to not tell us of his death... yet. Quite no need to speculate on resurrection, although it would fit Melisandre's workings quite so well.
I see no need for Bran to contact Stan at the time being either.

It would be very intersting if Stannis knew that Jon is a Targaryen heir. Technically, that would make Jon an enemy.

No it would not. The only Baratheon who totally freaked out at the thought of any Targaryen was Robert. The Baratheons are said to be a Targaryen cadet branch.
To Stan any man who keeps his oaths may be a Targaryen or no. Royal blood or not. Does not matter at all.

Since there's no more Targaryen claim to the Iron Throne after the conquest, the line of Targaryen Kings is simply discontinued. The throne forever lost.
Robert Baratheon was the only King when Jon was born. Jon is out of the succession because of the conquest and fall of House Targaryen.

Now, while in the eyes of the Jon Fan Club and Targaryen Loyalists, Jon may look like a king (just ask Mormont's Raven all about it; then you do not need to go fighting about R+L=J and marriage and precedence any more).

That does not matter until the day Jon goes all Viserys.
I don't see it happen. We know what drives Jon. He has already many more pressing matters at hand than ruling those petty seven Kingdoms. Like Maester Aemon, he simply has no incentive to rule as King (knowing Grrm, I should add a "...yet"). Keep that raven.

Now it would be quite different if Stan was told the Lord Commander Jon Snow had renounced his oaths. Stannis would feel he had been sharing his bed with a traitor - once again.
This telltale might well happen, even if we believe it is not the truth.

The name Stark given to Jon by King Robb... if that ever happens, as well as the claim to Winterfell and King Robb's heritage. That means nothing to Stannis. As Robb was a traitor to Stan, no deed by Robb was ever rightful. And amusingly, Jon has already refused both Winterfell and the King's release from his vows when Stannis put that forward as his offer.

Now should some "Jon Stark" have himself proclaimed "King in the North", that would mean Stannis fighting him, too.

What would Stannis do? ... Support his claim?

We can imagine he might, if there was any such claim in his reasoning. But there simply cannot be. Robert Baratheon ended all Targaryen claims.

Maybe Stannis faking his death has something to do with that discovery.

Stannis faking his death? What's that?

If Stannis is indead already dead, that happened long ago and wasn't anyplace north of Dragonstone. What? What? ;-)

If, for whatever the circumstance, Stannis learned that Jon was really the son of Rhaegar Targaryen, it would turn Stannis into Jon's enemy.

But why? There's no Rhaegar or Targaryen animosity in Stannis. Stannis is all duty and family loyalty. He had to support Robert, the rest is all duty and nothing else. Stannis is an Unsullied role model if there ever was. Except he takes counsel, not orders and takes care of the law.

(...) to him the Baratheon claim is one validated by the right of conquest. To him, the Targaryen's lost their claim when they lost Robert's Rebellion.

Under the law and under the sky, there's no claim. It's not an oppinion to Stannis, it is law and order and duty and he is not even happy about it.

So he'd probably want to keep Jon under his thumb for Mel to use, or kill him before Jon could become a real threat to his crown.

He would not even see the threat.
Jon is the closest thing to an ally to Stannis. Targaryen Royalty or not, as long as Jon stays in the Night Watch and cares about very important matters, why would Stannis turn on him, lest he was bewitched by some evil power making him. Stannis is cool duty become flesh of sorts.

Stannis will never have a change in heart in regards to his throne, he is the legit ruler of the seven kingdoms. The only way Stannis would go after Jon Snow is if Snow manages to survive his multiple stab wounds, is released from his vows(where the NW's protection/forgiveness would be null and void), is exposed as a Targ(keep in mind showing no proof of marriage he is a Targ/Stark bastard still), and declares himself as the rightful ruler.

Even if Jon is a legitimate Targareyn, he still has no banners to call, and has a would be older brother to deal with who actually has an army and is hundreds of miles south. Just because he is a Targ doesn't mean Stannis would go after him, I would imagine it would only be if he claimed the crown as his own, Stannis is not Robert.

There, you said it all first!
What am I gonna do with all that I wrote above?

How come people keep thinking that Jon is the rightful king according to the law. When the targaryen's lost the throne they lost their claim so they are not in the line of inheritence. Even if they were, Lyanna and Rhaegar weren't married so Jon would still be a bastard and even if they married, Rhaegar was married to Elia of Dorne so that still wouldn't be legit at all.

Quite ok so far but there is a lot on this board in favour of legit Targ polygamy so the claim in the eyes of a Targ loyalist might still be valid.

I just don't see Jon claiming anything. What for?

As Stannis is part Targaryen ..

Now is he? The lines separated around Aegon's landing. They probably have interbred. I am no way firm at this, but yet...

,,, he is the heir to the Targeryan dynasty before Daenerys is.

But that doesn't even matter as the Targ's have no claim on the throne and Stannis will NOT give the throne to someone that doesn't have a claim.

I think it does not work all that way back to Aegon's landing.
Yes, the Targs have no more lawful claim to the Iron Throne by succession or inheritance.

They'd need a lot of money, more likely than an army, and they could buy it back.

[tl;dr]

Imagine what you could find in the crypts of Winterfell.

Learning that some Jon would be the secret Targaryen heir and King that might have been promised would not worry Stannis at all. As long as that Jonny continues not to act kingly.

Cannot see Jon's incentive to become a King. (You keep that talking Raven, Jon. Jon, Corn, King! King, King, King!)

Jon is indeed busy saving the "realms of men". There'll be no spare time to run a stupid kingdom. Or seven. And right now he'll better be busy surviving.

[fehler]

Did Aemon leave any notes about Jon's heritage before he left on the Love Boat? Something in a book for Sam to find? Or did Aemon never detect his own kin so close, even after treating his very non-Targ burn wounds?

[Iona]

Now is he? The lines separated around Aegon's landing. They probably have interbred. I am no way firm at this, but yet...

I think it does not work all that way back to Aegon's landing.

Yes, the Targs have no more lawful claim to the Iron Throne by succession or inheritance.

*cough* The Baratheon brothers have a Targaryen grandmother...

[Jon Weirgaryen]

*cough* The Baratheon brothers have a Targaryen grandmother...

Thanks, @Iona.

Do you remember where that is stated?

Don't worry too much, it may not be that important.

[Iona]

Thanks, @Iona.

Do you remember where that is stated?

Don't worry too much, it may not be that important.

It was mentioned in AFFC, chapter 35, Aemon tells Sam:

“It must be you. Tell them. The prophecy... my brother’s dream... Lady Melisandre has misread the signs. Stannis... Stannis has some of the dragon blood in him, yes.

His brothers did as well. Rhaelle, Egg’s little girl, she was how they came by it... their father’s mother...

I'm thick as a castle wall when it comes to these who's-related-to-who -things and I missed this while reading the books. I try to keep up with the "family matters" by staring at the family trees in ASOIAF wiki, so if you need to check out stuff, that's a really good place to get some quick info.

[Jon Weirgaryen]

I'm thick as a castle wall when it comes to these who's-related-to-who -things and I missed this while reading the books. I try to keep up with the "family matters" by staring at the family trees in ASOIAF wiki, so if you need to check out stuff, that's a really good place to get some quick info.

@Iona: Thank you for the pointers to AFFC and the wiki family trees!