New interpretation of "A cloth dragon swayed on poles amidst a cheering crowd."

[Maester Feelgood]

I think that Vic and Euron do match "gray lips smiling sadly". Their name Greyjoy fits it perfectly really.

Ahhhhh, smiling sadly = joy. I see your reasoning. In that case it fits well but I'm still following my stubborn instincts about Aemon. Thanks for the clarification. :)

[StarkDragon]

A cloth dragon swayed on poles amidst a cheering crowd.

My latest theory is that this possibly refers to the dragon(s) painted on the sails of the Ironborn ship(s) in the recent The Winds of Winter Tyrion I chapter. Certainly, there were cheers. The poles are masts, and the cloth is the sails (probably hemp). They sway because that's what ships do. There are poles plural because a sail usually has at least one mast and upper poles on it for structural stability.

Can anyone out there confirm the dragon-on-sails reference?

The cloth dragon is a Flag of Wales, following in sync to the Tudor use of it following the War of the Roses.

Which could mean a "dragon" welcomed into Westeros... seeing as the Tudors were hardly Welsh, I'm going to go with the dragon is hardly Targareon.

Thus, in my theory based on history, it's Aegon the Unready.

[Lady Blizzardborn]

I was reading back over posts and had a thought...

(1) It's metaphor; he's known as the Prince of Sorrows (as he rules the mists around the Sorrows). Yet he's also smiling because he's mythicized as the proudest stone man, according to Septa Lemore.

(2) He spreads greyscale through a 'grey kiss'.

(3) There's a legend that if you make him laugh, he'll reward you with a 'boon'. I think Tyrion may make him laugh. (Tyrion is already associated with the Sorrows via Griff's company, and dreams of the Shrouded Lord).

(4) He's believed dead by some, or at least a living legend, and some say he has the ability to reincarnate into new form. Hence a 'corpse' and "Eyes bright in his dead face".

All of these, but Point 4 in particular had me thinking about Euron, his bright eye, and the fact that he claims to have been to Valyria but no one has ever made it back alive. Could Euron be the Shrouded Lord? Maybe the SL took over Euron's dead body or he's glamoured? The nightshade (which makes lips turn blue) could be to hide the fact that his dead lips are actually gray.

Just a random crackpot idea.

[SansaSeastar]

A cloth dragon swayed on poles amidst a cheering crowd.

My latest theory is that this possibly refers to the dragon(s) painted on the sails of the Ironborn ship(s) in the recent The Winds of Winter Tyrion I chapter. Certainly, there were cheers. The poles are masts, and the cloth is the sails (probably hemp). They sway because that's what ships do. There are poles plural because a sail usually has at least one mast and upper poles on it for structural stability.

Can anyone out there confirm the dragon-on-sails reference?

I think you may be right, im pretty sure you are right actually. People wan't to believe to badly that Aegon is fake, if this is true there is only one little piece of possible evidence left that Aegon could be fake, right? The flag that changed color, or is there more?

[Ser Arneld]

A cloth dragon swayed on poles amidst a cheering crowd.

My latest theory is that this possibly refers to the dragon(s) painted on the sails of the Ironborn ship(s) in the recent The Winds of Winter Tyrion I chapter. Certainly, there were cheers. The poles are masts, and the cloth is the sails (probably hemp). They sway because that's what ships do. There are poles plural because a sail usually has at least one mast and upper poles on it for structural stability.

Can anyone out there confirm the dragon-on-sails reference?

'A dragon on cloth swayed on poles amidst a cheering crowd' would make more sense to me being a reference to flags, sails or any sort of heraldry. A reference to a character made of cloth, like a puppet, makes more sense to me.

[mrlukeduke]

Yeah, and it could have multiple meanings anyway i.e. 'cloth' as in: religious ("of the cloth"); reference to Welsh flag; puppetry; actual cloth texile.

[mrlukeduke]

I suppose we shall have to simply wait and see! :frown5:

[Sword of Nightfall]

Maester Feelgood, on 10 Mar 2014 - 7:31 PM, said:

I've always believed the corpse at the prow of the ship is meant to be Aemon. The gray lips smiling sadly really only makes sense when applied to him. Victarion and Euron don't really fit the bill of sad smiles.

I think that Vic and Euron do match "gray lips smiling sadly". Their name Greyjoy fits it perfectly really.

:agree:

[Maester Feelgood]

It very well may be, but consider the full quote and it's context. If you root down the meanings of that particular block of visions, the undying show her Viserys, then Rhaego, Rhaegar, fAegon (cloth dragon), a stone dragon, Drogo (her Silver beneath a sea of stars), Aemon (the corpse) and then Jon Snow (blue flower). This seems like a pattern of family to me.

"A corpse stood at the prow of a ship, eyes bright in his dead face, grey lips smiling sadly."

Eyes bright is what gives me pause, I think it represents either his excitement to get to Dany knowing of his impending death, or possibly a nod to the north and white walkers having bright blue eyes I dead faces.

In any event, I get the play on words but I feel like Aemon is just a better fit.

ETA Then again, as I stewed on it more, those last three (if it is Vic) would be Drogo, Vic and Jon. The undying also call her bride of fire just after. Perhaps these could be the three mounts. Drogo (one to bed), Vic (one to dread) and Jon (one to love). I'm reaching I know but if Vic does tame a dragon Dany may see him as one of the three heads and she believes this means she may have to marry two husbands. I give up.

[The Black Adder of Dorne]

ETA Then again, as I stewed on it more, those last three (if it is Vic) would be Drogo, Vic and Jon. The undying also call her bride of fire just after. Perhaps these could be the three mounts. Drogo (one to bed), Vic (one to dread) and Jon (one to love). I'm reaching I know but if Vic does tame a dragon Dany may see him as one of the three heads and she believes this means she may have to marry two husbands. I give up.

But where does Hizdahr fit into any of that? I always figured he was the mount to dread.

[Maester Feelgood]

Good point, I guess it would depend on your definition of "mount" vs. "husband."

[Urien the Ragged]

But where does Hizdahr fit into any of that? I always figured he was the mount to dread.

I thought it was pretty obvious that Drogon is her mount to dread. Drogon's precursor being Balerion the Black Dread and all.

[Talking Hodor]

Couldn't the cloth dragons merely refer to the fact that Aegon, not fAegon, doesn't have real ones like his aunt does? That's he's using his banners and his claim alone (plus the Golden Company) to retake Westeros? He unfurled his banners, Storm's End lost its shit, and he took the castle.

[Firiel Hiren]

The cloth dragon is a Flag of Wales, following in sync to the Tudor use of it following the War of the Roses.

Which could mean a "dragon" welcomed into Westeros... seeing as the Tudors were hardly Welsh, I'm going to go with the dragon is hardly Targareon.

Thus, in my theory based on history, it's Aegon the Unready.

Hi, thank you for the link, it is very interesting. However, I followed it and then clicked on Ancestry and read the following:

"Henry's paternal grandfather, Owen Tudor, originally from the Tudors of Penmynydd, Isle of Anglesey in Wales, had been a page in the court of Henry V. He rose to become one of the "Squires to the Body to the King" after military service at Agincourt.[4] Owen is said to have secretly married the widow of Henry V, Catherine of Valois. One of their sons was Edmund Tudor, father of Henry VII. Edmund was created Earl of Richmond in 1452, and "formally declared legitimate by Parliament".[5]

Henry's main claim to the English throne derived from his mother through theHouse of Beaufort. Henry's mother, Lady Margaret Beaufort, was a great-granddaughter of John of Gaunt, Duke of Lancaster, fourth son of Edward III, and his third wife Katherine Swynford. Katherine was Gaunt's mistress for about 25 years; when they married in 1396, they already had four children, including Henry's great-grandfather John Beaufort. Thus Henry's claim was somewhat tenuous: it was from a woman, and by illegitimate descent."

So, while Henry VII was of Welsh descent, he had only a claim through the female illegitimate line to the English throne.

Am I confused here? I need to sleep but it seems like Henry had the right to use the Welsh flag which Is a red dragon. In our case here a Red Dragon is a Targaryen.

However, Blackfyre's that remain would only be able to claim through the female lineline which would be like Henry VII's claim to the English throne.

So, is it a clue that fAegon is a Blackfyre or is it a clue that fAegon is really a red dragon like on the flag and which was a true claim of Henry's Welsh ancestry?

I guess I will look at it when less exhausted. :)

[mrlukeduke]

Couldn't the cloth dragons merely refer to the fact that Aegon, not fAegon, doesn't have real ones like his aunt does? That's he's using his banners and his claim alone (plus the Golden Company) to retake Westeros? He unfurled his banners, Storm's End lost its shit, and he took the castle.

It's possible, although the HotU triplets do seems to refer to people. And, Young Griff has zero literal dragons. I like my "of the cloth" connection (and sails) but it might be just clutching at straws.

It's tricksy. I personally don't like a Jon Snow repetition, i.e. many assume Jon is both stone beast and blue flower. That's why I fall back to the stone beast meaning griffin. But there's also a House Hightower interpretation, and many others. Or when Jon "dies" at the Wall it's possibly sort of like two people in her vision, i.e. a "before and after" Jon. Lots of ways to look at it.

Maybe the triplets simply aren't "perfect" at all and everyone's over-thinking it.

It very well may be, but consider the full quote and it's context. If you root down the meanings of that particular block of visions, the undying show her Viserys, then Rhaego, Rhaegar, fAegon (cloth dragon), a stone dragon, Drogo (her Silver beneath a sea of stars), Aemon (the corpse) and then Jon Snow (blue flower). This seems like a pattern of family to me.

"A corpse stood at the prow of a ship, eyes bright in his dead face, grey lips smiling sadly."

I still think it's a very striking match for the Shrouded Lord.

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Shrouded_Lord

Just for info / convenience:

1. Viserys Targaryen's gruesome death.
2. A tall lord with copper-skin and silver-gold hair beneath a banner of a fiery stallion, with a burning city in the background (this may be a glimpse at what Rhaego's future would have been).
3. A dying prince (likely Rhaegar Targaryen) mutters a woman's name with his last breath, rubies flying from his chest.
4. A blue-eyed king who casts no shadow raises a red sword in his hand.
5. A cloth dragon sways on poles amidst a cheering crowd.
6. A great stone beast takes wing from a smoking tower, breathing shadows.
7. Daenerys's silver trots through grass to a darkling stream under a sea of stars.
8. A corpse standing at the prow of a ship with bright eyes and grey smiling lips.
9. A blue flower growing from a chink in a wall of ice, filling the air with sweetness.

. . . three heads has the dragon . . .

. . . three fires must you light . . . one for life and one for death and one to love . . .

. . . three mounts must you ride . . . one to bed and one to dread and one to love . . .

. . . three treasons will you know . . . once for blood and once for gold and once for love . . .

And yes, let's not forget the obvious flag of Wales and English Rose/Tudors connections. Plus that flag reminds me of the whole fire, ice, green(seer?) magics of ASoIaF.

[mrlukeduke]

"Thus Henry's claim was somewhat tenuous: it was from a woman, and by illegitimate descent."

So, while Henry VII was of Welsh descent, he had only a claim through the female illegitimate line to the English throne.

Am I confused here? I need to sleep but it seems like Henry had the right to use the Welsh flag which Is a red dragon. In our case here a Red Dragon is a Targaryen.

IMO this is also connected to the intentional confusion GRRM creates around events at the Tower of Joy. Did Lyanna and Rhaegar marry? How, in which tradition?

One can go deeper/crackier into looking at inverted wildling customs, and some curious female/Stark/Queen/Others connections.

[purake]

she is called bride of fire right after the vision of the blue flower is shown to her...but how could she be the bride of fire when she herself represents fire. bride of ice would have been a bit more telling i think

[Slayer of Lies]

^

Because she is “married to fire.”

IMO:

· Daughter of Death = People in Dany’s life that have died: Viserys, Rhaegar, and Rhaego.

· Slayer of Lies = People she must expose/depose/kill: Stannis, fAegon and “a great stone beast,” which is debatably everyone from JonCon to Mel to an actual stone beast

· Bride of Fire = People she’ll burn: Drogo, Euron or Vic, Jon

With the Slayer visions, I think it makes sense that Dany would have to expose/depose Stannis and fAegon in order to fully “re-usurp” the rulership of Westeros. So who else fits that bill that qualifies as a “great stone beast”? Maybe JonCon (though he is with fAegon, so that’s no fun), or maybe Mel (though she is tied to Stannis and with Jon, so that’s another “double play” angle I don’t really like) or maybe an actual stone beast*.

With Bride of Fire, I think it stands to reason that Dany (atop Drogon) will burn a bunch of Greyjoy (grey lips smiling sadly) boats at some point (which plays into my rationale that her naval transport will actually be the Volantene navy, and that we can’t underestimate that the Volantenes outnumber their masters 5:1). Meanwhile, since Jon seems a likely AAR, and he’s supposed to be “reborn” and pull Lightbringer from the fire, I tend to tie Dany’s need to light a fire (e.g. “one for life” and her “bride of fire” vision) to her lighting the fire that Jon pulls Lightbringer from (e.g. at or near Castle Black, or wherever Jon is around the time of his “rebirth”).

Could I be wrong? Absolutely.

But at present the “great stone beast” vision is the one that is more mysterious to me than the cloth dragon (considering the “necessity” to depose fAegon in order for Dany to make good on early-in-the-series goals of reclaiming Westeros). My current hope is that it’s an actual stone beast “piloted” by Melisandre (breathing shadow fire) because I think Dany, Dany’s dragons and Branraven could use an airborne nemesis before the ADOS epilogue hits.

[purake]

im also wondering who the three mounts might be? doesn't necessarily have to be husbands... to bed could be drogo, to dread could be drogon.. and to love..not sure

that's the most intriguing part of the undying scene... the fires she must light the mounts and the treasons

[Mr. Maester]

To the OP: interesting theory, but I think Aegon more clearly fits as the cloth dragon. I think the High Septon is eventually going to invite Aegon to Kings Landing to take the throne, which is where the cheering crowd comes in.