dmo862000 Posted December 10, 2013 Share Posted December 10, 2013 So I feel like of almost all crimes in Westeros, kinslaying might be considered one of, if not the most, heinous crime. Tyrion is reviled for it. Victation contemplated it but knew the stigma was too great. Theon is reviled for it and the people he supposedly murdered weren't actually even kin, technically. Maekar caught flak even though it wasn't actually intentional. Stannis kind of got a pass (not sure why) and so did Ramsay (but then his father is a psychopath, as is he) but aside from those two examples I feel like its an unforgivable crime. So what does everyone think, in the Westerosi world does kinslaying rank above rape, murder, torture etc? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mladen Posted December 10, 2013 Share Posted December 10, 2013 Well, you should first remember that Westeros doesn't believe that Stannis killed Renly, given that he was nowhere near him at the time, and the way Renly was killed is not something many would believe in. Kinslaying and the breach of guest right seem to be the worst crimes. We know how entire Westeros is frowned upon what Freys did, and Tyrion gets a lot of hatred due to new accursed status. I doubt what Tyrion has done may be forgiven by the most Westerosi, but at the end, it all depends on who will, at the end, sit at IT. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dmo862000 Posted December 10, 2013 Author Share Posted December 10, 2013 Kingslaying is ranked pretty badly too.... I didn't think about that one. I think these Stigmas are unfair though. If Aerys had torched KL I think the perception would be different. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gneisenau Posted December 10, 2013 Share Posted December 10, 2013 Targs killed Blackfyres, so it maybe not be so bad, atleast for Targs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shiola Posted December 10, 2013 Share Posted December 10, 2013 Kinslaying is worse than regular murder. Kingslaying, I think, is so terrible because it typically combines murder with breaking of vows (which is why guest right is such a big deal, at least in the North). The oathbreaking is what seems to bother the Westerosi when it comes to Jaime killing Aerys, at least. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I am of the Night Posted December 10, 2013 Share Posted December 10, 2013 Not so much as kings laying is frowned upon, more like killing a king you've sworn oaths out.ETA: Damn ninjas! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
complexphoenix Posted December 10, 2013 Share Posted December 10, 2013 Breaking guest right is the worst crime, followed by kinslaying, followed by kingslaying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LC Jaime Lannister Posted December 10, 2013 Share Posted December 10, 2013 Targs killed Blackfyres, so it maybe not be so bad, atleast for Targs. Bloodraven was called a kinslayer. So was Aemond. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mladen Posted December 10, 2013 Share Posted December 10, 2013 Kinslaying is worse than regular murder. Kingslaying, I think, is so terrible because it typically combines murder with breaking of vows (which is why guest right is such a big deal, at least in the North). The oathbreaking is what seems to bother the Westerosi when it comes to Jaime killing Aerys, at least. Will someone explain me why do we think that guest right is a big deal in the North, and not in the South, when we have so many proofs against it. It seems that both Northerners and Southerners look at the guest right equally. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dmo862000 Posted December 10, 2013 Author Share Posted December 10, 2013 Is breaking guest right worse? The Freys have still been allowed to live and operate. Almost all kinslayers are essentially wanted men. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mladen Posted December 10, 2013 Share Posted December 10, 2013 Is breaking guest right worse? The Freys have still been allowed to live and operate. Almost all kinslayers are essentially wanted men. It is... In such long history of Westeros we know of just 2 cases. And beside, entire Westeros is frowned upon what Freys did. They can't change it, but they despise them... Also, Freys are lessening in numbers with each day... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dmo862000 Posted December 10, 2013 Author Share Posted December 10, 2013 Will someone explain me why do we think that guest right is a big deal in the North, and not in the South, when we have so many proofs against it. It seems that both Northerners and Southerners look at the guest right equally. I never knew where this perception came from. 3 families were involved in breaking guest right, a northern family, a southern family and a family from the Riverlands. Tywin specifically distances himself from the RW because he knows the political ramifications it would have. I'm sure if the RW occurred in the Stormlands against some people from Dorne there would be equal outrage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dicer Posted December 10, 2013 Share Posted December 10, 2013 Kinslaying is worse than regular murder. Kingslaying, I think, is so terrible because it typically combines murder with breaking of vows (which is why guest right is such a big deal, at least in the North). The oathbreaking is what seems to bother the Westerosi when it comes to Jaime killing Aerys, at least. Plus, Jaime did not really have to kill Aerys. He could have arrested him or taken him captive instead of stabbing him in the back. Jaime was KG against one frightened, mad old man. Combined with the oathbreaking that's pretty bad. Kingslaying when not done by the KG does not seem to be an issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
complexphoenix Posted December 10, 2013 Share Posted December 10, 2013 Not so much as kings laying is frowned upon, more like killing a king you've sworn oaths out. I believe it only counts as kingslaying if it's your own king you are killing, as in, the one you've declared fealty to. If Ned had slain Aerys, that would not count, because at that point Robert was his king. Also, Roose Bolton is a kingslayer for killing Robb, and Olenna is a kingslayer for killing Joffrey, but Stannis is not a kingslayer for killing Renly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dmo862000 Posted December 10, 2013 Author Share Posted December 10, 2013 I believe it only counts as kingslaying if it's your own king you are killing, as in, the one you've declared fealty to. If Ned had slain Aerys, that would not count, because at that point Robert was his king. Also, Roose Bolton is a kingslayer for killing Robb, and Olenna is a kingslayer for killing Joffrey, but Stannis is not a kingslayer for killing Renly. Stannis is a kinslayer but I agree not a Kingslayer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gneisenau Posted December 10, 2013 Share Posted December 10, 2013 Will someone explain me why do we think that guest right is a big deal in the North, and not in the South, when we have so many proofs against it. It seems that both Northerners and Southerners look at the guest right equally. I find it interesting people always refer to RW as horrific because it breaks "guess right". Even if guess right didn't exist the Frey's committed a big diplomatic no-no when they invited the Starks over and killed them. That would be like one country inviting the leaders of another country over and killing them at dinner. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dmo862000 Posted December 10, 2013 Author Share Posted December 10, 2013 With all that said... PERSONALLY on a moral standpoint I would consider kinslaying far worse than kingslaying. As in both are somewhat justifiable but one much easier than the other. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gneisenau Posted December 10, 2013 Share Posted December 10, 2013 With all that said... PERSONALLY on a moral standpoint I would consider kinslaying far worse than kingslaying. As in both are somewhat justifiable but one much easier than the other. Well, AFAIK, IRL killing a cop is always first-degree murder, whereas I think killing a family member depends on the circumstances. So in IRL you could say "kingslaying" is worse than kinslaying Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mladen Posted December 10, 2013 Share Posted December 10, 2013 I never knew where this perception came from. 3 families were involved in breaking guest right, a northern family, a southern family and a family from the Riverlands. Tywin specifically distances himself from the RW because he knows the political ramifications it would have. I'm sure if the RW occurred in the Stormlands against some people from Dorne there would be equal outrage. That is my point. When we hear how RW was actually received by entire Westeros, one can simply conclude that it is a big deal everywhere We even have it in TPATQ when Lord Baratheon didn't allow Rhaenyra's son to be killed under his roof We know what Vale lords think about Freys, we know how Arianne Martell told her father about marrying to Walder Frey, as it can be no lower human being. We know how Davos reacted to it. All in all, Southerners were horrified by it, but not as much as Northerners given that Northerners were the ones that was being killed at RW. I find it interesting people always refer to RW as horrific because it breaks "guess right". Even if guess right didn't exist the Frey's committed a big diplomatic no-no when they invited the Starks over and killed them. That would be like one country inviting the leaders of another country over and killing them at dinner. Well, without guest right, it is only a treason and not so uncommon. But, guest right is actually what makes that slaughter so unforgivable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dicer Posted December 10, 2013 Share Posted December 10, 2013 I find it interesting people always refer to RW as horrific because it breaks "guess right". Even if guess right didn't exist the Frey's committed a big diplomatic no-no when they invited the Starks over and killed them. That would be like one country inviting the leaders of another country over and killing them at dinner. :agree: I don't think any house would be comfortable going over to another house for negotiations or making deals anymore. All that got thrown out of the window with what the Freys/Boltons did. Even Dany over in Essos understands that it would be a big faux pas. OT: Are the Lannisters like the most treacherous house ever in the series? They have been involved in all kinds of breaking oaths and vows. Kinslaying (Tyrion), Kingslaying (Jaime), breaking guest right (Tywin), adultery and maybe even Kingslaying (Cersei). I am surprised that other houses still deal with them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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