Jaime & Aerys

[Nictarion]

How so?

By having Brienne try to get Sansa back.

[sapphire_lion]

How so? He takes her family home away from her family and threatens the life of Edmure's unborn child after vowing to never take up arms against Houses Stark or Tully. He's even proud of using Edmure's child against them! Since he is calling others stupid for making threats they won't follow through with (hanging Edmure) and getting a kick out of Genna seeing he's truly Tywin's son, how can anyone call that a bluff? He's definitely breaking his vow to Cat.

Jaime used Edmure’s baby against him, in hopes that it would save Edmure’s life. He broke the siege at Riverrun peacefully. Everything he did, he did with the hopes that he would not have to break his vows to Catelyn.

[ladytiger]

Jaime was fully justified in killing the Mad King. And it definitely angers me that the other Kingsguard sat by idly while he raped Rhaella and roasted the Starks alive. Sure Jaime didn't stop it, but he was young and had little authority; and I'm sure he was deeply traumatized by these atrocities. Rhaegar should've stopped obsessing about his prophecies and reigned in his father. Maybe hire a Faceless Man to kill him or kill him in some manner that wouldn't label him as a kinslayer. Running off to the Tower of Joy was political suicide and the death of him. And if he were king he could've set aside his marriage to Elia and marry Lyanna; only then just Robert would've been pissed but deep down I think Bobby B knew that Lya had no love for him.

It's weird to think that one of Jon's grandfathers killed the other grandfather. I imagine Jon is going to become very conflicted when he finds out his parentage.

[Cloud]

...and goes on to break every vow he's ever made in his whole life. I cannot think of a single vow/promise he's ever kept.

That's because you're refusing to see the vows that he has kept by breaking other vows. If you recall his "so many vows..." quote, you can see perfectly why it's impossble to keep all your vows.

- By killing Aerys, he broke his vow to the king but also kept his vow to protect the innocents

- By pushing Bran (hurting the innocent), he is keeping is vow to protect Cersei (family)

- By invading the riverlands, he is breaking his vow to the king but keeping his vow to his father

- By releasing Tyrion, he broke his vow to the king but also kept his vow to his family

- By seizing riverrun, he's keeping his vow to Tommen/the king (which you like to ignore)

- By sending Brienne to find Sansa in spite of believing that Sansa is Joffrey's murderer, Jaime is attempting to keep his vow to Catelyn (but also remember that this vow was one he was forced to make at swordpoint, so it's hardly a vow I expect him to keep)

[krtmd]

How so? He takes her family home away from her family and threatens the life of Edmure's unborn child after vowing to never take up arms against Houses Stark or Tully. He's even proud of using Edmure's child against them! Since he is calling others stupid for making threats they won't follow through with (hanging Edmure) and getting a kick out of Genna seeing he's truly Tywin's son, how can anyone call that a bluff? He's definitely breaking his vow to Cat.

Again, I'll hang Jaime for the crime of flinging Edmure's babe when he's actually done it. He may be prepared to follow through on his threat, but he doesn't have to. Which is precisely the point - he knew he could manipulate Edmure with his reputation.

[DreamSongs]

Jaime and Aerys?

Jaime grew up as an idealist that was fed tales and songs of heroes. To him, the Kingsguard was the epitome of such grand tales. Cersei knew that and how to get Jaime to agree to it. What I would like know is how she managed to influence Aerys--that is a bit of background I hope we see.

Jaime takes his oaths at Harrenhal and is then immediately sent to KL. To his disappointment, he does not get to stay for the tourney or stay and protect Aerys. Jaime's head is so full of being the youngest KG ever selected, that he does not see that what Tywin knows...that Jaime was not selected for his personal qualities.

When the king and the other KG return to KL, Jaime assumes his duties. The other KG begin to indoctrinate him into their culture. Jaime does question what happens, as seen in the incident with Rhaella, but is bluntly told how to behave by the older, more experienced men of his order. Jaime follows suit despite the fact that it obviously does not sit well with him--his distaste in Aerys' actions were more plain than he thought since another KG took him aside to tell him that it was not his place to judge the king.

Aerys was becoming madder and the situation more intolerable. He became more and more paranoid about Tywin and apparently thought himself safe if Jaime was close. Rhaegar was aware of the growing unrest surrounding Aerys and when Jaime pleaded to ride with him to the Trident, he refused and promised Jaime things would be different when he returned. Essentially, Rhaegar was telling Jaime that it was not his talents or prowess that earned him a place in the KG.

Rhaegar did not return. Instead, Tywin and Ned advanced on the city. Jaime is the only KG in KL and tries to do his duty of defending Aerys, but when Aerys demand's Tywin's head, Jaime must finally understand his father's actions and Rhaegar's words...he not in the KG for his talent and capabilities. He is a madman's political hostage. Jaime knew Aerys' plot and his threats. There was no Rhaegar coming back to set things right. He could keep killing pyromancers, but Aerys would just keep calling for more. Aerys had totally lost it at this point and no there was no choice that did not lead death, oathbreaking, or total annihilation. The simplest and least destructive solution was take Aerys' life and deal with the consequences of breaking his oaths.

[DreamSongs]

Gee...I feel like I killed the thread :(

I've been thinking about this and if I recall, Aerys was also taken as a political hostage at one point and it was Selmy that rescued him. So, somehow Ser Barristan becomes important again. I need to go back and reread Selmy's bits and find what I am looking for to really connect Aerys and Jaime even further.

[krtmd]

Gee...I feel like I killed the thread :(

I've been thinking about this and if I recall, Aerys was also taken as a political hostage at one point and it was Selmy that rescued him. So, somehow Ser Barristan becomes important again. I need to go back and reread Selmy's bits and find what I am looking for to really connect Aerys and Jaime even further.

It's the Defiance of Duskendale. Barristan notes in ADWD (Barristan III) that Aerys had never been the same after, and that he (Selmy) felt haunted by all that he'd seen and heard and done nothing about as Aerys' KG - and that perhaps it would have been better to have lost the King there and have Rhaegar ascend to the throne.

It's interesting to get that perspective so much later into the books, where Selmy is essentially second-guessing his own actions - and inaction - when it comes to Aerys. And it certainly bolsters Jaime's claim that the man was most mad indeed.

[intheswamp]

If you believe in the crackpot theory that Cersei and Jaime are Aerys' children, it opens up the irony of Jaime's killing of the king. Aerys ordered Jaime to kill his father...which Jaime would unknownly, loyally did if the above scenario is true. It would also mean that both half-brothers, Tyrion and Jaime, killed their fathers.

[Sansa_Stark]

If you believe in the crackpot theory that Cersei and Jaime are Aerys' children, it opens up the irony of Jaime's killing of the king. Aerys ordered Jaime to kill his father...which Jaime would unkownly, loyally did if the above scenario is true. It would also mean that the half-brothers, Tyrion and Jaime, killed their fathers.

Or if you believe in the theory of Tyrion being Aerys son....

It means both half brothers killed his brothers father.

[Darth Visenya]

Neither of them are fit to be Aerys' son, well actually both of them are better than his daughter.